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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    So you keep saying I have a cartoonish perspective for saying something is bad and yet here you are saying suicide is bad. What happened to: I also understand that reap life is more complicated than good vs bad. You say you understand this but I dont think you do because you are harping on the same argument this whole time. You said you agree with this idea in general, yet you keep usi g the baby cancer example, so maybe you dont agree with it in general?


    You are all over the place. Can anything be good or bad? NOTE: I'm not saying that absolutely everything is either good or bad. I'm asking just can certain individual things like say suicide or babies dying of cancer be good or bad?
    I said this because I am saying suicide always comes from a negative place. There is still good in it, I'm sure sometimes the person themself finds relief in it. And that's the reality of it.

    But no, there is nothing that is entirely and absolutely good or bad. Not that I can think of.

    Again, your argument simply boils down to god not personally catering to you well enough to the point you think he must not exist.

    Although your intention may not be such, it's a quite arrogant perspective actually

    Your argument essentially asks, if god exists then why do bad things happen?
    Last edited by nastynice; 10-21-2019 at 01:52 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #317
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    Valade, me and you would have a much better conversation if we took god out of the debate. Hes not even necessary in this one. We can have the same exact debate sans god.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Second, no it is YOU who is taking this stance, not me. My point is look at the formula. Understand that the formula fits every situation. What you are doing is equivalent to me asking you to go through every scientific data and prove it rather than just listening to the general scie topic method and paying that across the board.

    3 and 4
    You asked me what is the "bad" in taking away childhood cancer, I answered. If you dont like the answer then just say so.

    5
    Answered numerous times already, see what I mentioned about the childs afterlife..

    6
    Again, explained about a half dozen times in this thread already. Nutshell = yin yang, lol

    I'm not ridicing you that in your mind god is santa claus, I'm just telling you the major flaw in your thinking. You keep asking for god to magically make you happier. Your argument essentially boils down to god not catering to you personally well enough to believe he exists. It's a ridiculous childish stance. I dont mean as ridicule, but cmon man, a spades a spade.

    He included that because that is one of a million ways we can die.
    Nowhere have I ever asked God to magically make me happier. I'm legitimately asking for the logic in allowing little kids to die of cancer and it's necessity. You don't have an answer. Your answer is that they go to heaven or wherever since they are blessed. That isn't an answer to the question, but dodging the question and justifying your none answer by saying "what does it matter, they go to heaven anyway". You attempted to claim it was to teach others lessons, but when confronted on the fact that God could easily teach others any lesson he could've through children dying of cancer in any other way where they don't, you had no response.

    The simple truth is, you can't rationalize it, so you dissociate from it. This allows you to maintain your belief God is a good person while acknowledging he does things you'd find abhorrent if anyone else did them.

    I also want to point out, I have never said my belief rests on him catering to me, my lack of belief rests entirely the completely lack of evidence in his existence, much like my belief you have no answer to my questions (i.e. a completely lack of actual response to them).


    I legitimately and sincerely don't think you grasp that God is all powerful and all knowing. You also legitimately don't seem to think God is good.
    Last edited by valade16; 10-21-2019 at 02:14 PM.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I said this because I am saying suicide always comes from a negative place. There is still good in it, I'm sure sometimes the person themself finds relief in it. And that's the reality of it.

    But no, there is nothing that is entirely and absolutely good or bad. Not that I can think of.

    Again, your argument simply boils down to god not personally catering to you well enough to the point you think he must not exist.

    Although your intention may not be such, it's a quite arrogant perspective actually

    Your argument essentially asks, if god exists then why do bad things happen?
    It is as I expected, you lack the capacity to understand my point. NOWHERE have I asked if God exists why do bad things happen. I completely understand why they do in that he gave us all free will and that our exertion of that will causes bad things to happen. Completely understand.

    I'm asking specifically, why does God inflict us with bad things in which our personal choices or free will plays no part. If pain is a result of our actions, how come he inflicts us with pain not a result of ours or anybody else's actions?

    Your answer is to teach us a lesson. OK, but as I said, he's not teaching the 1 year old kid a lesson. He's teaching someone else a lesson by killing that kid. You literally can't comprehend that point.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Valade, me and you would have a much better conversation if we took god out of the debate. Hes not even necessary in this one. We can have the same exact debate sans god.
    No we actually can't, and this is more proof that you do not believe God is all powerful. By reducing it down to "that's just the way life is" you are saying God is not powerful enough to change it, or to have made it any different way.

    If God didn't exist, I literally wouldn't have the question I do now, because the answer to the question "why do children get inflicted with terminal cancer" would be "life's random and bad stuff happens that are not the result of other's actions".

    You will say "it is the same if God exists" and my question will be "but what utility did God envision when he did that? Why did he make the world that way?" and you will say "That's just the way the world is", which isn't an answer.

    I think we've reached the irreducible conclusion of the debate: you really have no clue why he made the world the way he did. Which OK, but you are also justifying and defending it. Which is odd.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Nowhere have I ever asked God to magically make me happier. I'm legitimately asking for the logic in allowing little kids to die of cancer and it's necessity. You don't have an answer. Your answer is that they go to heaven or wherever since they are blessed. That isn't an answer to the question, but dodging the question and justifying your none answer by saying "what does it matter, they go to heaven anyway". You attempted to claim it was to teach others lessons, but when confronted on the fact that God could easily teach others any lesson he could've through children dying of cancer in any other way where they don't, you had no response.

    The simple truth is, you can't rationalize it, so you dissociate from it. This allows you to maintain your belief God is a good person while acknowledging he does things you'd find abhorrent if anyone else did them.

    I also want to point out, I have never said my belief rests on him catering to me, my lack of belief rests entirely the completely lack of evidence in his existence, much like my belief you have no answer to my questions (i.e. a completely lack of actual response to them).


    I legitimately and sincerely don't think you grasp that God is all powerful and all knowing. You also legitimately don't seem to think God is good. Perhaps this is some offshoot of Islam I'm unaware of, but the idea that God is a nihilist who created the world and said "deal with it" is not really the God the Holy Texts talk about.
    The holy text doesnt talk about it that way because we are grateful for life. We are grateful for all joy and pain. So in the understanding of life being good and bad, we are appreciative.

    Of course you're asking him to make you happier. I told you the negative consequence of removing childhood cancer, and you responded well he can do it in a magical manner where none of that happens, lol. I never said doesnt matter they go to heaven anyway. YOU said "doesnt matter", not me. I just told you what the child can expect from his/her perspective. You just dont like the fact that I have an answer, so now you're just acting like i dont, lol

    I dont need to rationalize or dissociate anything, I am simply aware of how life works. You aren't.

    This third paragraph is great, it illustrates something. I have answered your questions numerous times, and you dont like that, so now you're saying I didn't answer them...? lol, what's that even mean?
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    The holy text doesnt talk about it that way because we are grateful for life. We are grateful for all joy and pain. So in the understanding of life being good and bad, we are appreciative.

    Of course you're asking him to make you happier. I told you the negative consequence of removing childhood cancer, and you responded well he can do it in a magical manner where none of that happens, lol. I never said doesnt matter they go to heaven anyway. YOU said "doesnt matter", not me. I just told you what the child can expect from his/her perspective. You just dont like the fact that I have an answer, so now you're just acting like i dont, lol

    I dont need to rationalize or dissociate anything, I am simply aware of how life works. You aren't.

    This third paragraph is great, it illustrates something. I have answered your questions numerous times, and you dont like that, so now you're saying I didn't answer them...? lol, what's that even mean?
    Why are you laughing at that? It is as I suspected, you don't think that God is all powerful. Are you saying God can't magically remove cancer from children in a manner that doesn't stop our growth? You don't think he has that power?

    Fine, if you want to pretend like your answers are answers: then explain how it is moral to kill a child to teach someone else a lesson because you know that afterward they will go to Heaven?

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Why are you laughing at that? It is as I suspected, you don't think that God is all powerful. Are you saying God can't magically remove cancer from children in a manner that doesn't stop our growth? You don't think he has that power?

    Fine, if you want to pretend like your answers are answers: then explain how it is moral to kill a child to teach someone else a lesson because you know that afterward they will go to Heaven?
    I'm laughing because we're just somehow on completely diff levels, you keep saying you dont have a santa Claus mentality but then that's what you keep describing.

    Just look at how you are phrasing this question to me. Your bias is incredibly high. I told you in this life everything can have good, everything can have bad. From there you keep asking well what's good about a kid dying, I answer, so you say no from the kids perspective, I answer, then you say no how is that moral...address the concept, if we can talk about the concept the conversation will make more sense. Its like you explaining the scientific method to someone so that way they can apply the formula wher re fit, but instead they keep asking you to individually explain each piece of scientific knowledge separately. It's a waste of time. Just address the concept, that will in of itself address any scenario of yours, rather than you trying to word things a certain way or change goal posts in order to try and oppose my argument
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I'm laughing because we're just somehow on completely diff levels, you keep saying you dont have a santa Claus mentality but then that's what you keep describing.

    Just look at how you are phrasing this question to me. Your bias is incredibly high. I told you in this life everything can have good, everything can have bad. From there you keep asking well what's good about a kid dying, I answer, so you say no from the kids perspective, I answer, then you say no how is that moral...address the concept, if we can talk about the concept the conversation will make more sense. Its like you explaining the scientific method to someone so that way they can apply the formula where fit, but instead they keep asking you to individually explain each piece of scientific knowledge separately. It's a waste of time. Just address the concept, that will in of itself address any scenario of yours, rather than you trying to word things a certain way or change goal posts in order to try and oppose my argument
    Your answer is that the kid goes to heaven. That is not answering what is beneficial about the kid dying, only that the kid dying is OK because the kid goes to heaven. Do you see the difference? The kid going to heaven does not explain why the action of them dying in the first place is good, only that it's not horrible because they later go to heaven.

    Here's the problem with your explanations: you say that God killing children (or allowing them to die) of terminal cancer is OK because it teaches others a lesson and strengthens them and that the kid is pure and will go to heaven anyway. OK, so you're saying it'd be OK if a person killed a small child so long as it is to teach someone else a lesson and because the kid is pure he will go to heaven. Do you think that is OK to do then? That there's nothing wrong with it?

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Your answer is that the kid goes to heaven. That is not answering what is beneficial about the kid dying, only that the kid dying is OK because the kid goes to heaven. Do you see the difference? The kid going to heaven does not explain why the action of them dying in the first place is good, only that it's not horrible because they later go to heaven.

    Here's the problem with your explanations: you say that God killing children (or allowing them to die) of terminal cancer is OK because it teaches others a lesson and strengthens them and that the kid is pure and will go to heaven anyway. OK, so you're saying it'd be OK if a person killed a small child so long as it is to teach someone else a lesson and because the kid is pure he will go to heaven. Do you think that is OK to do then? That there's nothing wrong with it?
    No, I dont think that's ok, what a ridiculous post.

    I told you there is something to be gained in hardship. You are repeating my argument to me as it's ok for someone to kill a small child. It should be clear how badly your bias is clouding the conversation.

    I dont mind continue using this conversation, but let's do so without god in the equation. You will be able to understand what I'm saying much easier if we subtract god from the equation
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No, I dont think that's ok, what a ridiculous post.

    I told you there is something to be gained in hardship. You are repeating my argument to me as it's ok for someone to kill a small child. It should be clear how badly your bias is clouding the conversation.

    I dont mind continue using this conversation, but let's do so without god in the equation. You will be able to understand what I'm saying much easier if we subtract god from the equation
    But you do believe it's OK for God to allow a small child to die of a completely random event like Cancer even though he could have prevented it correct?

    You still aren't getting it. God is fundamental to the equation, because you're "that's life" schtick is incompatible with God. God made life what it is, therefore he has the power to have made it different.

    Do you agree or disagree with that? Because right now you are trying to subtract God from the equation to absolve him of any blame for anything bad that happens at random by claiming "that's just how life is", but that isn't how it works with a creator.

    Ironically, you are advocating very strongly for atheism right now.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But you do believe it's OK for God to allow a small child to die of a completely random event like Cancer even though he could have prevented it correct?

    You still aren't getting it. God is fundamental to the equation, because you're "that's life" schtick is incompatible with God. God made life what it is, therefore he has the power to have made it different.

    Do you agree or disagree with that? Because right now you are trying to subtract God from the equation to absolve him of any blame for anything bad that happens at random by claiming "that's just how life is", but that isn't how it works with a creator.

    Ironically, you are advocating very strongly for atheism right now.
    No I'm not saying this to absolve anyone of blame, I'm saying this to show you that it is simply your perspective which is ignorant to how things benefit us, your thinking is too entrenched in good lists and naughty lists, but that's not how real life works.

    If I can make.my point without god in the equation, which I think I can because as I said, you guys are basically trying to logically sell me on an emotional argument, but if we take god out of the equation I believe it will take the emotion out of your thinking.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No I'm not saying this to absolve anyone of blame, I'm saying this to show you that it is simply your perspective which is ignorant to how things benefit us, your thinking is too entrenched in good lists and naughty lists, but that's not how real life works.

    If I can make.my point without god in the equation, which I think I can because as I said, you guys are basically trying to logically sell me on an emotional argument, but if we take god out of the equation I believe it will take the emotion out of your thinking.
    And I've already asked how a child dying of terminal cancer benefits the child and your response was they are pure and go to heaven. Which again, is not how the cancer death benefits the child only why it's not abhorrent that the child dies.

    I am fully aware (for the 100th time) that bad things benefit us. I get the concept as a concept. I'm stating that is not true in all cases and I'm specifically referring to one in which you have been unable to state a benefit to the child.

    This is a logical argument by the way, the fact you think it's an emotional one demonstrates you cannot think about it logically. I have zero emotion when discussing babies dying of cancer, I'm not asking if it's a positive for the child in an emotional way, I'm asking for a logical explanation for how it benefits the child.


    But if you truly wish to take God out of the equation, I can repeat the same question and likely get the same non-answer:

    How does a baby dying of terminal cancer benefit the baby that died of terminal cancer?

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And I've already asked how a child dying of terminal cancer benefits the child and your response was they are pure and go to heaven. Which again, is not how the cancer death benefits the child only why it's not abhorrent that the child dies.

    I am fully aware (for the 100th time) that bad things benefit us. I get the concept as a concept. I'm stating that is not true in all cases and I'm specifically referring to one in which you have been unable to state a benefit to the child.

    This is a logical argument by the way, the fact you think it's an emotional one demonstrates you cannot think about it logically. I have zero emotion when discussing babies dying of cancer, I'm not asking if it's a positive for the child in an emotional way, I'm asking for a logical explanation for how it benefits the child.


    But if you truly wish to take God out of the equation, I can repeat the same question and likely get the same non-answer:

    How does a baby dying of terminal cancer benefit the baby that died of terminal cancer?
    It benefits the baby because when a person dies in a state of innocence they step into the afterlife with no sins. If you step into the afterlife with no sins, you are going to have a very positive experience. This is how the baby benefits.this is like the 6th time I've said it now, I don't know how else to say it. Please stop asking me the same question, lol

    Again, you do not personally research and test every piece of scientific literature out there. Why? Because you understand the formula and believe the formula, so even when some science doesnt necessarily make sense to you you still accept it on the basis of the formula to the scientific method.

    You keep talking about how bad things happening do not have positive aspects to them, if you believe this then you're not getting the formula. Try to get the formula
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    It benefits the baby because when a person dies in a state of innocence they step into the afterlife with no sins. If you step into the afterlife with no sins, you are going to have a very positive experience. This is how the baby benefits.this is like the 6th time I've said it now, I don't know how else to say it. Please stop asking me the same question, lol

    Again, you do not personally research and test every piece of scientific literature out there. Why? Because you understand the formula and believe the formula, so even when some science doesnt necessarily make sense to you you still accept it on the basis of the formula to the scientific method.

    You keep talking about how bad things happening do not have positive aspects to them, if you believe this then you're not getting the formula. Try to get the formula
    Bolded: Dude seriously, are you incapable of separating a specific instance with an extrapolation of everything. Just because I said one bad thing doesn't have a positive aspect doesn't mean I believe every bad thing doesn't have a positive aspect. I did not think you were this dumb, but this is now the 101st time I've had to explain that to you. Please tell me you get the difference between a single instance and believing it applies in all cases?

    Now that that is out of the way, let's address your reasoning. The reason it benefits the baby is because the baby dies in a state of innocence and goes to the afterlife with no sins and will have a very positive experience. So by that logic, anyone who kills a baby is doing it a favor because they are sending it to Heaven with no sins, where it will have a really positive experience.

    Do you agree with that, yes or no?

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