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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    ********. Every job deserves a living wage.

    People have heart attacks here because McDonaldís workers make $15 an hour now (thatís minimum) but fail to realize that you still canít afford your own place even while making the $15 an hour.

    Minimum wage jobs at the very least should be able to get you a studio apartment.
    eh, I don't think so. Perhaps an apt with a roomate or 2, but the biggest reason many low paying jobs go to immigrants is because they will room with 10 others to make ends meet.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    So what? Maybe American consumers need to pay for those who serve them to have a living wage.
    Exactly, and these companies now need to financially support their own staff instead of asking the government for hand outs to do so. Now they have to compete rather than subsist on corporate welfare.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    ********. Every job deserves a living wage.

    People have heart attacks here because McDonaldís workers make $15 an hour now (thatís minimum) but fail to realize that you still canít afford your own place even while making the $15 an hour.

    Minimum wage jobs at the very least should be able to get you a studio apartment.
    Paper boy?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Exactly, and these companies now need to financially support their own staff instead of asking the government for hand outs to do so. Now they have to compete rather than subsist on corporate welfare.
    And the way to do that is to automate and outsource, and lay off the employees.

  5. #20
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    Will people start discussing the automation that has the potential to displace more poor workers than the minimum wage ever could?
    Think long and hard about why you respond to nonsense. Please!


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Will people start discussing the automation that has the potential to displace more poor workers than the minimum wage ever could?
    the progress of automation might be rushed if the minimum wage increases. Long term, yep, automation will displace way more.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #22
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    It's always important in a debate like this to point out to the "minimum wage should not be a living wage" is that the minimum wage was created for the expressed purpose of being a living wage. It's also worth pointing out that the perception of the pimply faced teenager as the fast food worker is woefully out of date as well:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/u...-shortage.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/n...-industry.html

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...ers/ar-BBPmaTB


    It's usually difficult to have this conversation in earnest when there's such a strong gap between reality and perception.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Paper boy?
    To be fair, those jobs have been obsolete for a while.
    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Will people start discussing the automation that has the potential to displace more poor workers than the minimum wage ever could?
    Been talking about this since I was a teenager lol.
    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    And the way to do that is to automate and outsource, and lay off the employees.
    Itís coming anyway, and automation replacing people has little to do with minimum wage work.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Will people start discussing the automation that has the potential to displace more poor workers than the minimum wage ever could?
    Equally pressing is the issue of dividing full-time jobs into several part-time jobs.

    I read somewhere (Iíll try to find it) that silicon valley is pushing hard for the UBI and single payer health care so that they can convert an increasing number of ďliving wage and benefitsĒ jobs into part-time jobs. The big corporations can effectively bow out of the benefits/living wage game while hiding their profits (legally, of course) and letting middle America shoulder the burden of the increased welfare state.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I kind of agree on this. Working a minimum wage job should be a starter job, or part time job. The only exceptions are handicap, or those restricted unfortunately. But those people also qualify for assistance to make up any gap in "living" wage.

    If you are 35, and have a minimum wage job, you failed at life.

    However, what we deem a "living wage" is funny. $15/hour isn't liveable. Sorry.
    Meh. Failures come in all shapes and sizes, though.

    I know you said $15 isnít livable but let me paint a picture for you. Say you get the $15 minimum wage and are somehow given a 40 hour work week, thatís 600 before taxes and roughly 470ish after taxes (Iím estimating based off of prior experiences) thatís less than 2 grand a month or 24K in a year. The average rent for a studio apartment in NYC is roughly 2 grand alone - and thatís going to the poor and higher crime rate neighborhoods. Still, two roommates in a studio is definitely not ideal. Opt for a 2 bedroom apartment and thatíll cost you roughly $2500, close to 3000 in some places, somewhere around 2000 in poor neighborhoods. You and your roommate (assuming they also work a minimum wage job) essentially have to offer up 3/4 of your monthly income just to pay rent. Best case scenario, youíre offering a little less than half for rent. Still, youíll have internet bills, maybe cable, phone, utilities, car payments, metro card, food, etc. Youíll end up with little to no cash by the end of the month and likely will have to live Ďpaycheck to paycheckí ...even worse if you live with you S/O and have a kid. Most people choose not to have kids now because of **** like this, though lol.

    Yes, minimum wage jobs are starter jobs but you said it yourself, youíll have to get a roommate and $15 isnít a livable wage. Nothing adjusts for inflation and this doesnít even account for rent skyrocketing on a monthly basis. Maybe a 35 year old failed at life but theyíre willing to work which is more than a lot of other people. People go through **** or get laid off, it happens.

    Saying you canít get an apartment despite working 40 hour weeks is ****ed IMO. Youíre (not you, you) pretty much telling people that they have limited options to what they can do if theyíre a certain age. 19 year old kid wants to move out? That canít happen because they canít afford it. They get kicked out? Join the military because itís the only decent option for somebody who doesnít have the privilege to go to college, afford trade school, etc.

    Applying for a city job would be the way to go but everyone knows that takes at least 2 years for them to call you back. Fact is, millennials and Gen Z kids are staying with their families a lot longer simply because they canít move out.

    The average age to get married, have kids, and move out has steadily gone up over the years and I think that has more to do with the financials then personal philosophy.

    Like I was always told growing up, you used to be able to work a minimum wage job over the summer to pay for college - back in the 80s/90s, now you can barely afford a semester at a community college if you do that. The same can be said for rent and moving out. The qualifications for being an adult keep going higher and so do wages, neither of which are adjusting for inflation or the socioeconomic impact.
    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It's always important in a debate like this to point out to the "minimum wage should not be a living wage" is that the minimum wage was created for the expressed purpose of being a living wage. It's also worth pointing out that the perception of the pimply faced teenager as the fast food worker is woefully out of date as well:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/u...-shortage.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/n...-industry.html

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...ers/ar-BBPmaTB


    It's usually difficult to have this conversation in earnest when there's such a strong gap between reality and perception.
    but, the reality is, if we attempt to make minimum wage a "living" wage, its effects will likely be very damaging in the short term at least. You can't just make up for the growth in wage gap just like that without massive consequences. I think that is why I feel more like a minimum wage job isn't supposed to be a living wage, because it has moved so far away from that, we can't just snap our fingers and problem fixed...

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Meh. Failures come in all shapes and sizes, though.

    I know you said $15 isnít livable but let me paint a picture for you. Say you get the $15 minimum wage and are somehow given a 40 hour work week, thatís 600 before taxes and roughly 470ish after taxes (Iím estimating based off of prior experiences) thatís less than 2 grand a month or 24K in a year. The average rent for a studio apartment in NYC is roughly 2 grand alone - and thatís going to the poor and higher crime rate neighborhoods. Still, two roommates in a studio is definitely not ideal. Opt for a 2 bedroom apartment and thatíll cost you roughly $2500, close to 3000 in some places, somewhere around 2000 in poor neighborhoods. You and your roommate (assuming they also work a minimum wage job) essentially have to offer up 3/4 of your monthly income just to pay rent. Best case scenario, youíre offering a little less than half for rent. Still, youíll have internet bills, maybe cable, phone, utilities, car payments, metro card, food, etc. Youíll end up with little to no cash by the end of the month and likely will have to live Ďpaycheck to paycheckí ...even worse if you live with you S/O and have a kid. Most people choose not to have kids now because of **** like this, though lol.

    Yes, minimum wage jobs are starter jobs but you said it yourself, youíll have to get a roommate and $15 isnít a livable wage. Nothing adjusts for inflation and this doesnít even account for rent skyrocketing on a monthly basis. Maybe a 35 year old failed at life but theyíre willing to work which is more than a lot of other people. People go through **** or get laid off, it happens.

    Saying you canít get an apartment despite working 40 hour weeks is ****ed IMO. Youíre (not you, you) pretty much telling people that they have limited options to what they can do if theyíre a certain age. 19 year old kid wants to move out? That canít happen because they canít afford it. They get kicked out? Join the military because itís the only decent option for somebody who doesnít have the privilege to go to college, afford trade school, etc.

    Applying for a city job would be the way to go but everyone knows that takes at least 2 years for them to call you back. Fact is, millennials and Gen Z kids are staying with their families a lot longer simply because they canít move out.

    The average age to get married, have kids, and move out has steadily gone up over the years and I think that has more to do with the financials then personal philosophy.

    Like I was always told growing up, you used to be able to work a minimum wage job over the summer to pay for college - back in the 80s/90s, now you can barely afford a semester at a community college if you do that. The same can be said for rent and moving out. The qualifications for being an adult keep going higher and so do wages, neither of which are adjusting for inflation or the socioeconomic impact.
    I hear you man, seriously. Read my reply to valade, it sums up my overall reasoning on WHY I don't think we can possibly have a sustained living wage as our minimum. We have just steered too far away.

    Also, if we are going to have a national minimum wage, I am sorry, but there are certain cities where you should have literally 0 chance to live on that. NYC is one of them.

    Lastly, I think we spend way too much time on minimum wage when it comes to wage gaps. The people making minimum wage are not contributing to the economy like the middle class. The middle class wages are the wages we should be addressing, because if you give them more money, it will stimulate the economy far more than tossing another $2/hour at a guy living off $20k a year.
    Last edited by Hawkeye15; 04-29-2019 at 01:42 PM.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    but, the reality is, if we attempt to make minimum wage a "living" wage, its effects will likely be very damaging in the short term at least. You can't just make up for the growth in wage gap just like that without massive consequences. I think that is why I feel more like a minimum wage job isn't supposed to be a living wage, because it has moved so far away from that, we can't just snap our fingers and problem fixed...
    Then you phase in the wage increases over a large enough time that it isn't as disruptive. But I don't think it's a good argument to say "even though we should be paying a living wage according to the intent and purpose of the minimum wage law, we weren't doing that so long that now attempting to follow the law would be problematic".

    We owe it to all the people we've been ripping off over the years to give them what we legally determined they should have.

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