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  1. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Dont have to lock players into positions. Not like being at 2nd would have hindered his offensive outbreak

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Now ,Now.....Don't pick on a guy who admits he is not a genius....

  2. #617
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    No you don't have to lock in a player to a position. But there's nothing wrong with not taking on a big salary in a rebuilding year, and seeing what we have with Anderson at SS and Moncada at 3B, while leaving Madrigal's position controversy free and wide open. Also by the numbers this year, aside from defense, Machado hasn't been better than Moncada or Anderson. So we are paying 1.9 million for 2 players outperforming a player making 30 million lol.

    Moncada 20190

    Age: 24
    2019 Salary: $575,000
    GP: 99
    PA: 417
    BA: .305
    OBP: .361
    OPS: .916
    SLG: .555
    H: 116
    R: 60
    RBI: 63
    SB: 7
    BB: 31
    K: 116
    WAR: 3.3
    F

    Tim Anderson 2019
    Age: 26
    2019 Salary: $1,400,000
    GP: 94
    PA: 387
    BA: .332
    OBP: .354
    OPS: .853
    SLG: .499
    H: 124
    R: 59
    RBI: 46
    SB: 16
    BB: 10
    K: 178
    WAR: 2.9

    Manny Machado 2019
    Age: 26
    2019 Salary: $30,000,000
    GP: 123
    PA: 529
    BA: .265
    OBP: .333
    OPS: .801
    SLG: .468
    H: 126
    R: 67
    RBI: 71
    SB: 4
    BB: 46
    K: 105
    WAR: 2.9

    We keep talking about this was a wasted opportunity to get a star player? The 2 star offensive players had no one to compete with them in a weak FA class. That's the absolute worst time to sign a guy like Harper or Machado. And both have grossly under-performed for the money they got. We won by default of not signing either one. Our biggest need is no longer 3B, that's Moncada's spot, or SS, that's Tim Anderson's spot, or CF, that will be Roberts. We need Starting Pitching, and maybe in 2 years, we can go after Mookie Betts to put in RF. He actually consistently puts up elite numbers worthy of a mega deal. We expect to at least fight for a playoff spot in 2020. By 2021 Free Agency, we should be firing on all cylinders. Robert and Madrigal should both have a year of MLB experience. Vaughn should be joing the ML roster that season. Hopefully we land a pitcher this Winter, and Giolito, Cease, Kopech, and 1 of Dunning/Rodon/Lopez create a dominant rotation. We will know what we have in Collins by then as well.

    This would be bar none the best lineup in baseball, and we should have the money to do it:

    RF Mookie
    CF Robert
    LF Eloy
    1B Abreu/Vaughn
    DH Vaughn/Collins/Abreu
    2B Madrigal
    SS Anderson
    3B Moncada
    C McCann/Collins/(Mercedes or Zavala)

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Dont have to lock players into positions. Not like being at 2nd would have hindered his offensive outbreak

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Moncada at 3B leaves 2B for Madrigal, it's that simple, for me anyway. Opinions vary ...
    1985 Bears
    2005 White Sox
    2010 Blackhawks
    1991 Bulls

    1981 Sting

  4. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttman73 View Post
    Moncada at 3B leaves 2B for Madrigal, it's that simple, for me anyway. Opinions vary ...
    For the price and being able to use all our savings on actual needs, thatís how I feel. Youíre supposed to take advantage of having a young roster where your players are on cheap deals. We need an OF, SP, RP. We have the money to do it. We have the exciting young core to attract it.

  5. #620
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    And before someone says, if we had Machado we could trade one of our young players, that player we trade for would probably cost a lot too so take that money lost into consideration. The more legit starters you have on rookie deals, the more flexibility you have to create sustainable depth

  6. #621
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    Jun 2005
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    1,535
    From my perspective, the Machado situation is 2 different arguments.

    1st, Would he have been a good signing? My opinion is no. It was money that could be used elsewhere, and I am not a fan of Machado. In hindsight, our infield seems fine without him.

    2nd. How the White Sox went about trying to sign a player they obviously really wanted. This is the part that concerns me. Machado was a player they seemed to really want, but could not compete with the Padres for his services. If their interest was not genuine then as a fan, I am not happy with the way they played their fan base in the media, and they intentionally ďcame in 2nd in the biddingĒ just to look like they were ďat the tableĒ. Either scenario concerns me about how legit their efforts will be or their ability will be, to sign high end free agents going forward.

    Again, just my opinion.
    Last edited by Sockeye; 08-25-2019 at 10:23 PM.

  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    From my perspective, the Machado situation is 2 different arguments.

    1st, Would he have been a good signing? My opinion is no. It was money that could be used elsewhere, and I am not a fan of Machado. In hindsight, our infield seems fine without him.

    2nd. How the White Sox went about trying to sign a player they obviously really wanted. This is the part that concerns me. Machado was a player they seemed to really want, but could not compete with the Padres for his services. If their interest was not genuine then as a fan, I am not happy with the way they played their fan base in the media, and they intentionally ďcame in 2nd in the biddingĒ just to look like they were ďat the tableĒ. Either scenario concerns me about how legit their efforts will be or their ability will be, to sign high end free agents going forward.

    Again, just my opinion.
    I dunno, if we didn't really want him, we at least put our names out there as players in the market. Like baiting the hook. I'm not mad we didn't get him because I think it will benefit us in the long run for longer sustained success. I think we have learned this year that we are probably an Ace, and a healthy young pitching staff away from competing. Also more Bullpen depth.

  8. #623
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    Jul 2013
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    I agree that this team is closer to contention than some may have thought earlier in the year.
    After Luis Robert and Madrigal come up, the line-up will be excellent.
    I don't even mind Leury G in the line-up and in RF for now.

    Bullpen is an issue but a few guys have shown some promise even beyond Colome and Bummer. Maybe two or three additions to it in the off-season.

    Starting staff - We have good candidates for the 5 spots -
    Gio, ReyLo, Cease, Kopech, Rodon, Dunning.
    Obviously if the Sox add a front of rotation starter that would be awesome.
    Last edited by garypeters; 08-26-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  9. #624
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    GP-Leury in RF next year is OK, but I don't want him to be option #1. I'd prefer him at the #4, we will need him. Not sure who is available this offseason but it needs to be looked at.
    At minimum one actually good starting pitcher needs to be added. I'd bring back Nova and let it sort itself out. No guarantee Kopech can go early, Rodon is always a question mark and Dunning still an unknown.
    1985 Bears
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    1981 Sting

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    And before someone says, if we had Machado we could trade one of our young players, that player we trade for would probably cost a lot too so take that money lost into consideration. The more legit starters you have on rookie deals, the more flexibility you have to create sustainable depth
    At this point in time though, we have the room to take on salaries...that might not be the case in a few years if the sox donít plan on spending money the way teams with top 10 payrolls do.

    Thatís the issue, we have no clue how the future will play out and a majority of free agents end up getting overpaid, or one or two bargain guys have breakouts that most donít see coming.

    No matter the argument you want to make, our future would look brighter with Machado or Harper right now unless we are able to land other star players in free agency, which is a huge question mark.

    Who will they land in free agency is the big question, and until that happens you canít make this argument that we are better without an extra 5 WAR player on our team.

  11. #626
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    FWIW
    Sox record 60-70
    San Diego (with the $30M dollar man) 60-69

    BONUS

    Philly (with whatever Harper makes) 67-62

    Imagine Ö IF Rodon had stayed healthy, would the record be 5 games better? How about Kopech, or both Ö Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    1985 Bears
    2005 White Sox
    2010 Blackhawks
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    1981 Sting

  12. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by shorvath721 View Post
    At this point in time though, we have the room to take on salaries...that might not be the case in a few years if the sox donít plan on spending money the way teams with top 10 payrolls do.

    Thatís the issue, we have no clue how the future will play out and a majority of free agents end up getting overpaid, or one or two bargain guys have breakouts that most donít see coming.

    No matter the argument you want to make, our future would look brighter with Machado or Harper right now unless we are able to land other star players in free agency, which is a huge question mark.

    Who will they land in free agency is the big question, and until that happens you canít make this argument that we are better without an extra 5 WAR player on our team.
    No one is denying the fact that we would be better with Harper or Machado. We all realize that. What my argument is they got paid 325 and 300 respectively, in a down market, because they were the only 2 star players available, and neither player has justified that price tag.

  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttman73 View Post
    FWIW
    Sox record 60-70
    San Diego (with the $30M dollar man) 60-69

    BONUS

    Philly (with whatever Harper makes) 67-62

    Imagine Ö IF Rodon had stayed healthy, would the record be 5 games better? How about Kopech, or both Ö Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Exactly. We went through the entire 1st half of the season with only 1 consistent starter in Giolito.

    Nova only pitched good vs good teams the entire first half, and only recently has he started to become a consistent pitcher vs the bad teams also. Stats Against +.500 vs -.500 teams splits are:

    2.57 vs 6.59 ERA
    1.16 vs 1.62 WHIP
    6-4 vs 3-6 W-L

    Lopez was pretty awful until the All-Star break. To his credit, he said he was going to improve, and he has been pretty damn good since 1st vs 2nd half splits of:

    6.34 vs 2.82 ERA
    1.58 vs 1.19 WHIP
    4-8 vs 4-3 W-L

    Cease is learning on the job, which I'm glad he's doing this year, rather than next year.

    All our other starting pitchers this year have been for the most part completely awful.

    We really just need to grab 1 ace this offseason to go into next season in a good spot. After missing out on Harper and Machado, we should have nothing stopping us from outbidding teams for Cole. Lets just assume for arguments sake, that's who we land:

    Cole/Giolito/Cease/Nova/Lopez (Let Kopech, Dunning, Rodon get healthy)
    That's one helluva deep staff. Dunning probably should pitch another year in the minors anyways. He never made it to AAA. But in case of emergency, if he's ready half way down the road, bring him up. Rodon could probably be used as trade bait, or maybe you convert him to a reliever. Bring Kopech along slowly, maybe even stretch him out in the Pen for a portion of the season, and trade Nova when he's ready to go.

  14. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    Exactly. We went through the entire 1st half of the season with only 1 consistent starter in Giolito.

    Nova only pitched good vs good teams the entire first half, and only recently has he started to become a consistent pitcher vs the bad teams also. Stats Against +.500 vs -.500 teams splits are:

    2.57 vs 6.59 ERA
    1.16 vs 1.62 WHIP
    6-4 vs 3-6 W-L

    Lopez was pretty awful until the All-Star break. To his credit, he said he was going to improve, and he has been pretty damn good since 1st vs 2nd half splits of:

    6.34 vs 2.82 ERA
    1.58 vs 1.19 WHIP
    4-8 vs 4-3 W-L

    Cease is learning on the job, which I'm glad he's doing this year, rather than next year.

    All our other starting pitchers this year have been for the most part completely awful.

    We really just need to grab 1 ace this offseason to go into next season in a good spot. After missing out on Harper and Machado, we should have nothing stopping us from outbidding teams for Cole. Lets just assume for arguments sake, that's who we land:

    Cole/Giolito/Cease/Nova/Lopez (Let Kopech, Dunning, Rodon get healthy)
    That's one helluva deep staff. Dunning probably should pitch another year in the minors anyways. He never made it to AAA. But in case of emergency, if he's ready half way down the road, bring him up. Rodon could probably be used as trade bait, or maybe you convert him to a reliever. Bring Kopech along slowly, maybe even stretch him out in the Pen for a portion of the season, and trade Nova when he's ready to go.
    I highly doubt we get Cole, but assuming we can land a 2/3 type starter and if we resign Nova as you mention above. We can ride out the 1st couple of months while Kopech and Rodon recover and prove themselves healthy. At which point we can always move a pitcher if we are in that fortunate position.
    I agree with Mutt above that Leury G is a nice #4, but we should be shooting for a solid RF/DH run producer (lefty if possible) and shore up the bullpen. That is not a lot to ask or expect of a team that is finishing a rebuild, is hoping to contend, has preached patience to its fan base and most importantly has so little payroll commited for next year.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    No one is denying the fact that we would be better with Harper or Machado. We all realize that. What my argument is they got paid 325 and 300 respectively, in a down market, because they were the only 2 star players available, and neither player has justified that price tag.
    So after 3/4 of a season you know they are already not going to justify their contracts?

    Machado is 26 years old still, letís wait and see here. Heís earned his salary this year.

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