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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBears79 View Post
    Yeah..the glacial pace they move pitchers through the system is ****ing annoying. Its basically why our bullpen is so sketchy imo.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I couldn't agree more. I can't find the article but I think it was Hoyer who said they wanted to move guys more quickly this year, and he all but conceded the lack of pitching at the MLB level has created that problem. McLeod recently acknowledged his failures at drafting and developing MLB pitchers. It's an issue that is front and center on their radar.

    I keep getting attacked for this in other threads but the Cubs need advancement from their MILB pitchers this year. But the contender situation and Maddon on his last year cuts against taking a risk on these MILB players. It's a rock and a hard place.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    I couldn't agree more. I can't find the article but I think it was Hoyer who said they wanted to move guys more quickly this year, and he all but conceded the lack of pitching at the MLB level has created that problem. McLeod recently acknowledged his failures at drafting and developing MLB pitchers. It's an issue that is front and center on their radar.

    I keep getting attacked for this in other threads but the Cubs need advancement from their MILB pitchers this year. But the contender situation and Maddon on his last year cuts against taking a risk on these MILB players. It's a rock and a hard place.
    You keep getting attacked (which to me is not really attacked, it is just people disagreeing) because you continue to suggest that Maddon trying to win is going to somehow stunt the growth of a minor league arm. And you do so under the premise that the Cubs want to win this year so they are not going to experiment. And Maddon wants to win so he keeps a job.
    I think what most people disagree with is this idea that this year is any different than any other. I think every year Maddon has been here he has wanted to win. I also think if a minor league arm comes up and does the job he will get the job. If the Cubs have a guy worthy of being in the pen in their system, he will be in their pen. Other teams call up young guys even when they are competitive. I doubt very seriously that the Cubs are holding down pen arms they feel can help them. As an example, if Mekkes and Steele are better than Kintzler, Duensing and Cedeno, I would expect to see Mekkes and Steele. Often rookie pen arms come up (on other teams) and are successful. This is not a position you have to have experience in to come up and be good. In fact, I think some pen arms are best the first year or two they are up. So I wouldn't worry about the Cubs stunting the growth of minor league arms so they can win now.
    One final note: I think it is fine for people to disagree without it being called "attacked". This reply to you as an example. I am not attacking you. I am just suggesting I do not agree with you.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    You keep getting attacked (which to me is not really attacked, it is just people disagreeing) because you continue to suggest that Maddon trying to win is going to somehow stunt the growth of a minor league arm. And you do so under the premise that the Cubs want to win this year so they are not going to experiment. And Maddon wants to win so he keeps a job.
    I think what most people disagree with is this idea that this year is any different than any other. I think every year Maddon has been here he has wanted to win. I also think if a minor league arm comes up and does the job he will get the job. If the Cubs have a guy worthy of being in the pen in their system, he will be in their pen. Other teams call up young guys even when they are competitive. I doubt very seriously that the Cubs are holding down pen arms they feel can help them. As an example, if Mekkes and Steele are better than Kintzler, Duensing and Cedeno, I would expect to see Mekkes and Steele. Often rookie pen arms come up (on other teams) and are successful. This is not a position you have to have experience in to come up and be good. In fact, I think some pen arms are best the first year or two they are up. So I wouldn't worry about the Cubs stunting the growth of minor league arms so they can win now.
    One final note: I think it is fine for people to disagree without it being called "attacked". This reply to you as an example. I am not attacking you. I am just suggesting I do not agree with you.
    Attacked/disagree/kindly discussed... whatever. I'm not offended either way and I find the conversation interesting. Hopefully you're the same. I did not mean "attacked" in a pejorative way but I realize that, because I'm a complete dick, it could have come across that way.

    And yes--I think Maddon will manage different this year because this year is different--his job is on the line. The other difference this year is I think there are real AAA arms that could make an impact but Maddon needs to give them a chance. Or perhaps Almora could break out but Maddon won't let him fight through his struggles against righties. Or that we need to stop overusing certain pen arms because that is a short term band aid that falls off in October.

    A lot of this is speculation, or perhaps a scar from Maddon's no-risk game 6 usage of Aroldis Chapman, combined with his knee jerk reaction to call in Cishek at every opportunity last year. The concept that "if the AAA arms are better they'll be given a chance" is not comforting because how do you know the AAA arms are better unless you give them a chance? For example, I will be irate if Chatwood gets mop up duty work instead of a AAA arm we can test in the majors. Give the young guys a chance, that's all I'm saying.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    Attacked/disagree/kindly discussed... whatever. I'm not offended either way and I find the conversation interesting. Hopefully you're the same. I did not mean "attacked" in a pejorative way but I realize that, because I'm a complete dick, it could have come across that way.

    And yes--I think Maddon will manage different this year because this year is different--his job is on the line. The other difference this year is I think there are real AAA arms that could make an impact but Maddon needs to give them a chance. Or perhaps Almora could break out but Maddon won't let him fight through his struggles against righties. Or that we need to stop overusing certain pen arms because that is a short term band aid that falls off in October.

    A lot of this is speculation, or perhaps a scar from Maddon's no-risk game 6 usage of Aroldis Chapman, combined with his knee jerk reaction to call in Cishek at every opportunity last year. The concept that "if the AAA arms are better they'll be given a chance" is not comforting because how do you know the AAA arms are better unless you give them a chance? For example, I will be irate if Chatwood gets mop up duty work instead of a AAA arm we can test in the majors. Give the young guys a chance, that's all I'm saying.
    I would only be irate with Chatwood doing mop up duty if he continues to suck like he did last year. The thought of "give a minor league arm a chance" is only a good idea if the major league guys are not getting the job done. I really do not think someone like Mekkes, or Steele or whoever you want to give a chance to will be any better in 2020 if they get experience or not in 2019. To me that is not the way a pen arm works. I agree they have to start getting arms from the minors. Both pen and starting pitching. But if guys they currently have are doing the job, IMO, there is no advantage to bringing a minor league arm up. I don't think the 20 or 30 innings they might get in 19' is going to make them any more or less effective in 20'.

    On that note; regardless of what happens this year I want to see 2 pen arms as guys from the minors on the 2020 team. To me that is a way to lower the cost of the payroll. The biggest need is to keep the cost down at certain positions by using home grown talent. The pen is a good place to start. Hopefully they have those 2 arms when the 2020 season starts. I, personally, feel Mekkes will be one of the arms.
    Last edited by rcal10; 03-05-2019 at 02:40 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    I would only be irate with Chatwood doing mop up duty if he continues to suck like he did last year. The thought of "give a minor league arm a chance" is only a good idea if the major league guys are not getting the job done. I really do not think someone like Mekkes, or Steele or whoever you want to give a chance to will be any better in 2020 if they get experience or not in 2019. To me that is not the way a pen arm works. I agree they have to start getting arms from the minors. Both pen and starting pitching. But if guys they currently have are doing the job, IMO, there is no advantage to bringing a minor league arm up. I don't think the 20 or 30 innings they might get in 19' is going to make them any more or less effective in 20'.

    On that note; regardless of what happens this year I want to see 2 pen arms as guys from the minors on the 2020 team. To me that is a way to lower the cost of the payroll. The biggest need is to keep the cost down at certain positions by using home grown talent. The pen is a good place to start. Hopefully they have those 2 arms when the 2020 season starts. I, personally, feel Mekkes will be one of the arms.
    You want progression from the minor leaguers but don't want to give them a chance this year. My point is there will be opportunities to give them a chance. I'd rather have Maples or Mekkes as the last guy in the bullpen rather than Chatwood, contract or not. I'd take Rosario over Duensing unless something changes--and I thought it was stupid for Rosario to get sent down last year when he was doing so well in the majors. But he had to for the sake of Duensing and Chatwood keeping their roster spots. So yeah, if there's something better on the major league roster, fine. But if we're saving Duensing and Chatwood with their combined -1.5 WAR, I'd rather give Maples and Rosario (or even Steele) a shot instead.

    If a major league player shows consistent success, sure, don't give that up today in favor of tomorrow. But there is more than enough fat to cut on this bullpen that would allow young arms a chance to succeed this year and next.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    You want progression from the minor leaguers but don't want to give them a chance this year. My point is there will be opportunities to give them a chance. I'd rather have Maples or Mekkes as the last guy in the bullpen rather than Chatwood, contract or not. I'd take Rosario over Duensing unless something changes--and I thought it was stupid for Rosario to get sent down last year when he was doing so well in the majors. But he had to for the sake of Duensing and Chatwood keeping their roster spots. So yeah, if there's something better on the major league roster, fine. But if we're saving Duensing and Chatwood with their combined -1.5 WAR, I'd rather give Maples and Rosario (or even Steele) a shot instead.

    If a major league player shows consistent success, sure, don't give that up today in favor of tomorrow. But there is more than enough fat to cut on this bullpen that would allow young arms a chance to succeed this year and next.
    Rosario was getting it done on luck. He was not good and deserved to be sent down. Maples also sucked. I am for young arms coming up, but they have to deserve it. And, yes, I am fine with minor league guys starting on the major league roster without prior experience in the majors (or limited experience). If the major league pitchers the Cubs have are performing well there is not a spot for the minor league arms. YOu have no clue of Mekkes , Rosario or Maples are going to be any better than Kintzler, Chatwood or Duensing. And all of those guys don't even have a spot anyway.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    You want progression from the minor leaguers but don't want to give them a chance this year. My point is there will be opportunities to give them a chance. I'd rather have Maples or Mekkes as the last guy in the bullpen rather than Chatwood, contract or not. I'd take Rosario over Duensing unless something changes--and I thought it was stupid for Rosario to get sent down last year when he was doing so well in the majors. But he had to for the sake of Duensing and Chatwood keeping their roster spots. So yeah, if there's something better on the major league roster, fine. But if we're saving Duensing and Chatwood with their combined -1.5 WAR, I'd rather give Maples and Rosario (or even Steele) a shot instead.

    If a major league player shows consistent success, sure, don't give that up today in favor of tomorrow. But there is more than enough fat to cut on this bullpen that would allow young arms a chance to succeed this year and next.
    But is there? You have sue things of Morrow, Strop, Cishek, Edwards, Montgomery, Brach. That is 6 "sure things". I think Cedeno is pretty sure as well. So we are now at 7(when everyone is healthy). That leaves one spot. As for the pen arms you seem to think a minor league player can be better than, Kintzler and Duensing were both pretty good before last year. And in Kintzler case, you can actually say before he pitched 18 inning with the Cubs. Duensing was very solid in 17' Kintzler was pretty solid most of his career. No, he isn't a knock down 9th inning guy. He is a pen arm. So if everyone is healthy were do Mekkes, Maples, Rosario and Steele fit in? Hell, if we are naming them, how about Wick, Webster, Norwood, Barnette, Kontos, Mills, and a host of others. I feel you have this idea the minor league guy has to be better. Similar to the back up quarterback in football. Everyone wants to see someone else. But that doesn't mean they are better.
    And, in all those names, I never even mentioned Chatwood. So where exactly do you expect all these arms to go and who do you think is the best in the group, and at whose expense?

  8. #23
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    I'm on my phone at work so I'm hoping somebody could answer this. In the conversation of giving a minor leaguer or two the opportunity to pitch out of the bullpen, who in the bullpen has options left that could actually be sent down?

    There is a lot that comes in to play with whether a guy gets called up or not

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    I'm on my phone at work so I'm hoping somebody could answer this. In the conversation of giving a minor leaguer or two the opportunity to pitch out of the bullpen, who in the bullpen has options left that could actually be sent down?

    There is a lot that comes in to play with whether a guy gets called up or not
    That's one of the issues. We can't give the lottery tickets a chance, even in mop up duty, because Tyler Chatwood and Brian Duensing can't be sent down to the minors.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    That's one of the issues. We can't give the lottery tickets a chance, even in mop up duty, because Tyler Chatwood and Brian Duensing can't be sent down to the minors.
    What competitive teams are throwing lottery tickets onto their major league roster to give them a chance? Force your way up by dominating in the minors. I don't really see any guys down there who are knocking down the door. Hopefully that will change this year and if it does then by all means it may make sense to get rid of guys without options who we are already paying.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    That's one of the issues. We can't give the lottery tickets a chance, even in mop up duty, because Tyler Chatwood and Brian Duensing can't be sent down to the minors.
    They used 30 non position player pitchers last year. There will be opportunities for the people who deserve them.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    Rosario was getting it done on luck. He was not good and deserved to be sent down. Maples also sucked. I am for young arms coming up, but they have to deserve it. And, yes, I am fine with minor league guys starting on the major league roster without prior experience in the majors (or limited experience). If the major league pitchers the Cubs have are performing well there is not a spot for the minor league arms. YOu have no clue of Mekkes , Rosario or Maples are going to be any better than Kintzler, Chatwood or Duensing. And all of those guys don't even have a spot anyway.
    Agreed on Rosario over performing but he and (especially) Maples had potential. And their production was better than Duensing's. So there's one example where we kept a guy in the bullpen when there were minor leaguers with potential to be better, and where the major leaguer was god awful. But Duensing's contract, as well as Chatwood's and Kintzler's, kept them on the 25 man roster. In no way did those major leaguers "deserve" to stay on the major league team. That's quite a different conversation though.

    And of course I have no idea whether "Mekkes, Rosario or Maples are going to be any better than Kintzler, Chatwood or Duensing." Nobody does. But I'd much rather gamble on the potential of Dillon Maples rather than hang my hat on Tyler Chatwood lighting up the box score.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    But is there? You have sue things of Morrow, Strop, Cishek, Edwards, Montgomery, Brach. That is 6 "sure things". I think Cedeno is pretty sure as well. So we are now at 7(when everyone is healthy). That leaves one spot. As for the pen arms you seem to think a minor league player can be better than, Kintzler and Duensing were both pretty good before last year. And in Kintzler case, you can actually say before he pitched 18 inning with the Cubs. Duensing was very solid in 17' Kintzler was pretty solid most of his career. No, he isn't a knock down 9th inning guy. He is a pen arm. So if everyone is healthy were do Mekkes, Maples, Rosario and Steele fit in? Hell, if we are naming them, how about Wick, Webster, Norwood, Barnette, Kontos, Mills, and a host of others. I feel you have this idea the minor league guy has to be better. Similar to the back up quarterback in football. Everyone wants to see someone else. But that doesn't mean they are better.
    And, in all those names, I never even mentioned Chatwood. So where exactly do you expect all these arms to go and who do you think is the best in the group, and at whose expense?
    I'm hoping Kintzler regains his form and becomes who he was before the trade. He seems like a right handed Justin Wilson lite based on his diminished performance with the Cubs. If he does, then the problem is solved without having to dig for gold with the minor leaguers. I suspect there will be opportunities anyway with Kintzler (or one of the others) not regaining his potential, injuries, etc. I personally think Duensing is done at 36 and after sucking royally last year and I believe he will be released. Will be interested to see how things shake out.

    And yes, we have many names down in AAA and even AA to fill in. All will not get a chance. And no, you didn't mention Chatwood. But he has a roster spot and a high price tag. I think he's a lost cause and it would be better to give someone else a chance. Just my opinion.

    In related news, it's nice to see the minor league thread get some action. Feels like 2014 in here again.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    Agreed on Rosario over performing but he and (especially) Maples had potential. And their production was better than Duensing's. So there's one example where we kept a guy in the bullpen when there were minor leaguers with potential to be better, and where the major leaguer was god awful. But Duensing's contract, as well as Chatwood's and Kintzler's, kept them on the 25 man roster. In no way did those major leaguers "deserve" to stay on the major league team. That's quite a different conversation though.

    And of course I have no idea whether "Mekkes, Rosario or Maples are going to be any better than Kintzler, Chatwood or Duensing." Nobody does. But I'd much rather gamble on the potential of Dillon Maples rather than hang my hat on Tyler Chatwood lighting up the box score.
    Not really comparing apples to apples. Duensing was hurt for much of the year, and you already said Rosario was a but lucky. As for Maples, he was on the major league team for a bit, and not very good. I honestly do not think guys like Kintzler or Duensing will be on the team because the Cubs do not want to cut them. First of all of the 7 sure things I mentioned (counting Cedeno) 2 might start on the DL. 1 for sure. But if Cedeno also starts late that leaves 2 spots. I agree, if the Cubs do not trade Chatwood he will take one of the spots. I do not see them cutting bait on 2 years of $27M. But if Duensing and Kintzler have to be cut because some young arm impressed the team so much, I think they will be cut. If someone forces his way in, he will get it. I just, honestly, do not see this as a problem. However, the first time someone gives up a few runs in the middle innings I am sure you and several others will be calling for minor league arms. I am just not so sure why. TO me, none are knocking at the door just yet.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
    I'm hoping Kintzler regains his form and becomes who he was before the trade. He seems like a right handed Justin Wilson lite based on his diminished performance with the Cubs. If he does, then the problem is solved without having to dig for gold with the minor leaguers. I suspect there will be opportunities anyway with Kintzler (or one of the others) not regaining his potential, injuries, etc. I personally think Duensing is done at 36 and after sucking royally last year and I believe he will be released. Will be interested to see how things shake out.

    And yes, we have many names down in AAA and even AA to fill in. All will not get a chance. And no, you didn't mention Chatwood. But he has a roster spot and a high price tag. I think he's a lost cause and it would be better to give someone else a chance. Just my opinion.

    In related news, it's nice to see the minor league thread get some action. Feels like 2014 in here again.
    If only it was the same talent.

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