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  1. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Oladipo blossomed at age 25, how old is the DSJ with all that potential? How often do you throw Frank's age out there to justify your posts but then say DSJ is far from being average?

    FA's have lots to do with the trade because unlike you I think a couple stick and become productive for this team and others will bring back value even if it's simply a trade for another expiring with a 2nd round pick added, that just increases the trade value. You never know when you get a Mitch or even Iggy for that matter, and we can name many more successful second round picks or successful trades that included 2nd round picks with players.

    You act like we got nothing, you act like DSJ is 25 and is what he is, you act like it is a fact that the two picks will have zero value, you act like all these 7 FA's mean absolutely nothing, you act like KP never got hurt and has already proved he is an elite player off the injury and has proved without even the injury he can play after the calendar hits Dec 15th.

    This trade could go down as terrible, no one is denying that, but it was forced and in my opinion and I've posted tons of articles that it's well thought of NBA people who think the same thing.

    Final question.......you have been at this since FA, you feel better keep saying how crappy the Knicks FO did? It's your opinion and your entitled but I've never seen one trade deemed a failure before anyone has even stepped on the court and any picks were used or traded, or any player at 21 with mega ability was given any kind of shot........
    you're very set in your opinions and you'll bring Frank into everything so there's no use discussing.

  2. #1367
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    Quote Originally Posted by flimflamman View Post
    The front office does not deserve a free pass I agree. But acknowledging the trade for what is does not require mental gymnastics. The trade is done it's over. Can't we just move on and see how the picks end up and how KP is.
    obviously not, some just can't let go and let it all evolve.

  3. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    you're very set in your opinions and you'll bring Frank into everything so there's no use discussing.
    I'm open minded, I at least acknowledge this trade could be a disaster but also see that you can't make that a guarantee based on so many reasons, non less than a player at 7'3 with a history of injuries coming off an ACL.

    Frank comes into play because you keep downing DSJ and keep upping Frank who were in the same draft one pick apart, same age, and DSJ shows more potential, DSJ has more natural talent and DSJ actually improved from his rookie season.

    Let it evolve, at least I have a positive outlook on things a Knick fan can actually be positive about.

    I can't change my opinion on this because KP has yet to step on the court, the picks have not been used and DSJ hasn't started his third season yet.

    Didn't KP break out in year three and showed improvement in year two? How long did it take Russell to break out?

    My opinion changes when facts happen, you keep throwing Trey in my face, didn't my opinion change after preseason, it didn't take long, he failed and was given every opportunity, but he failed, them the facts.

  4. #1369
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    Quote Originally Posted by flimflamman View Post
    Oh your the guy who uses the word " Delusional " like it's going out of style, lol. Notice, how people just had a conversation in a friendly fashion ? Where people aired their points, mutually displaying respect then you appear calling people's world view imaginary and deficient because we don't agree with you. This sports talk is in itself just a pass time where we just discuss entertainment. Entertainment should not inspire a person to come to a forum and get that worked up where you come to insult people to make yourself feel better. Over sports, you are calling a person's worldview " Delusional ". What a loser.
    I talk friendly with most people here, but I got attacked often for my opinions from the first day I started posting on here, so being friendly with everyone isn't on my to do list.

  5. #1370
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    Yall remember when all the delusional posters on this forum swore Mills had a genius plan in place and that was the only reason he made such a terrible trade?

    "Mills knows something we dont"

    That's all I heard for months after the trade.

    Nope, he was a delusional fool, just like the delusionals on this forum who still defend that God aweful trade

  6. #1371
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    Yall remember when all the delusional posters on this forum swore Mills had a genius plan in place and that was the only reason he made such a terrible trade?

    "Mills knows something we dont"

    That's all I heard for months after the trade.

    Nope, he was a delusional fool, just like the delusionals on this forum who still defend that God aweful trade
    That's the normal here bad trade equals either grand plan already in place or wait till next deadline/draft/fa/10 years later. I wonder how many of this guys were ever put in position to produce results and told there boss wait a couple of years before you realize how badly I ****ed up.

    Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk

  7. #1372
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheetos185 View Post
    That's the normal here bad trade equals either grand plan already in place or wait till next deadline/draft/fa/10 years later. I wonder how many of this guys were ever put in position to produce results and told there boss wait a couple of years before you realize how badly I ****ed up.

    Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk
    I don't know who is worse about this between the two of you to be honest? Did you read anywhere in this forum that posters wanted the trade to happen? did you read anywhere that trading KP was great or even good for the team?

    I'll ask you one last time, because the other guy gave a cop out answer with no reply.........what team had a player request a trade that the team didn't give him a trade? Name one and the after shock thread is a done deal?

    The next part of the equation because there are no players that have requested trades that it wasn't granted was at 4-5 mil what were you getting back, I've been asking and to say Tatum/Brown was one response is ridiculous for two reasons:
    1. by league rules can't happen
    2. Knicks were already rejected for Jackson, Fox, Mitchell and KP included for AD........that's four teams wanted no part of KP for players who have not made the allstar team and NO just going with Lakers youth and picks. And forgetting that isn't Tatum better than Jackson and Fox? So why would Boston do that trade for one of the up and coming nba studs for a player who is coming off an injury and has yet in three seasons to play well after Dec 15th?

    So based on the above unless you think the Knicks should have called KP's bluff and been the first team to do that you risk him playing one season on a QO which gives him status of UFA and included a No trade clause.

    So before you think you are smarter than every fan, NBA expert, and Teams FO's please explain to us all what you would have done?

    It was your boy Phil that caused the beginning of the end of KP and he got fired, yet you still support Phil, the irony of your posts is at a very high level.

    So please we can't wait to hear from either of you how you would be the first team to handle not trading a player demanding to be traded, and then if you agree he had to be traded what would have been better under the above circumstances?

    Last time I posted every singe player in January that could have been a possibility to be traded for one for one.

    And to say well we could add in Lee, well no one wanted Lee for even a 2nd round pick so that hurts the come back value as well.

    Ball is in your court, so let's put this to bed because it's almost October and KP has been gone since January 31st.

    And let me add to your comment about waiting, yea in every sport and every trade if it warrants waiting that is when it gets evaluated..............didn't you comment on the Melo trade that we couldn't even get a first for him?

    Should we not have waited to the 2018 draft a full season later that we got Mitch?

  8. #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    I talk friendly with most people here, but I got attacked often for my opinions from the first day I started posting on here, so being friendly with everyone isn't on my to do list.
    Not acceptable. Take personal responsibility to be polite and considerate.

  9. #1374
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheetos185 View Post
    That's the normal here bad trade equals either grand plan already in place or wait till next deadline/draft/fa/10 years later. I wonder how many of this guys were ever put in position to produce results and told there boss wait a couple of years before you realize how badly I ****ed up.

    Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk
    "Sorry I lost all your investment $ sir, I bet everything on a bad stock and now I have no plan on how to remedy the situation, because I don't know what I'm doing and am not qualified.

    But you can't judge me yet because we don't know how things will turn out. You have to wait years before we will know if I did bad or not.

    I Invested all your money in Myspace, but if you wait a few years it could make a comeback."

    That's how ridiculously delusional these posters sound to me, it's comical really.
    Last edited by TakeAnotherL; 09-22-2019 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #1375
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    AS OF RIGHT NOW, AND NO ONE CAN ARGUE AGAINST IT:

    1. Dennis Smith Jr is not even as good as THjr and THjr may be his ceiling.
    2. None of the picks received from Dallas project to be better than THjr in the future.
    3. The combination of #1 and #2 show just how bad this deal was considering KP was a throw in.

  11. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Years View Post
    AS OF RIGHT NOW, AND NO ONE CAN ARGUE AGAINST IT:

    1. Dennis Smith Jr is not even as good as THjr and THjr may be his ceiling.
    2. None of the picks received from Dallas project to be better than THjr in the future.
    3. The combination of #1 and #2 show just how bad this deal was considering KP was a throw in.
    Donít agree with #1

    As of right now, they are at similar overall efficiency levels. Itís hard to not project for DSJ to pass him very soon. Iíd argue DSJ is already better.

    Donít agree with #2

    We have no way of knowing where the picks will be. Considering they will at least be first rounders, thatís another Iíd disagree with. Itís far from impossible to think we canít draft another decent, but flawed player anywhere in the first round. THJ was a later first rounder..

    #3...

    What does that mean? KP was a throw in? Iíd say he was the centerpiece of the deal
    Last edited by ShadyOne; 09-28-2019 at 09:43 AM.

  12. #1377
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Donít agree with #1

    As of right now, they are at similar overall efficiency levels. Itís hard to not project for DSJ to pass him very soon. Iíd argue DSJ is already better.

    Donít agree with #2

    We have no way of knowing where the picks will be. Considering they will at least be first rounders, thatís another Iíd disagree with. Itís far from impossible to think we canít draft another decent, but flawed player anywhere in the first round. THJ was a later first rounder..

    #3...

    What does that mean? KP was a throw in? Iíd say he was the centerpiece of the deal

    AS OF RIGHT NOW:

    THjr has a TS% 6%+ higher than DSjr. THjr has a much better career slash line FG%/3pt%/FT%. They are not the same efficiency. You fail on that. Even on Asst/TO ratio, where a PG should shine, they are about even for their careers. THjr has a much better Offensive Rating. And I could go on. But just to the eye test, DSjr is not at Timmy's level yet.

    #2 Most projections for THIS SEASON have Mavericks as a borderline playoff team. That puts them at the end of the lottery or just outside. The probability that a player taken mid-first round turns into a player as good as Hardaway are, unfortunately, not that good. Add to that the fact Dallas has Luka, KP and some good roleplayers locked up, with cap space in the offseason, and they are in a good position to upgrade their team between this season and next season. That means, AS OF RIGHT NOW, the pick we get from Dallas will likely be #15 or lower.

    So you are wrong on #1 and #2.

    Basketball value is based on quality, not quantity of players. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. If none of the assets that we receive from Dallas ever surpass THjr, then KP was just a throw in for the deal. If DSjr surpasses THjr and starts working his way toward KP in basketball value, then maybe the deal starts evening out. Or if one of those two picks turn into a player with equal potential to KP, then the deal starts to even out.

    As it stands today, it does not appear that we will get even 1 player better than THjr out of this deal.

  13. #1378
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Years View Post
    AS OF RIGHT NOW:

    THjr has a TS% 6%+ higher than DSjr. THjr has a much better career slash line FG%/3pt%/FT%. They are not the same efficiency. You fail on that. Even on Asst/TO ratio, where a PG should shine, they are about even for their careers. THjr has a much better Offensive Rating. And I could go on. But just to the eye test, DSjr is not at Timmy's level yet.

    #2 Most projections for THIS SEASON have Mavericks as a borderline playoff team. That puts them at the end of the lottery or just outside. The probability that a player taken mid-first round turns into a player as good as Hardaway are, unfortunately, not that good. Add to that the fact Dallas has Luka, KP and some good roleplayers locked up, with cap space in the offseason, and they are in a good position to upgrade their team between this season and next season. That means, AS OF RIGHT NOW, the pick we get from Dallas will likely be #15 or lower.

    So you are wrong on #1 and #2.

    Basketball value is based on quality, not quantity of players. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. If none of the assets that we receive from Dallas ever surpass THjr, then KP was just a throw in for the deal. If DSjr surpasses THjr and starts working his way toward KP in basketball value, then maybe the deal starts evening out. Or if one of those two picks turn into a player with equal potential to KP, then the deal starts to even out.

    As it stands today, it does not appear that we will get even 1 player better than THjr out of this deal.
    You say Iím wrong. I say I see an inefficient volume shooter vs. a potentially good young PG. I love how people view TS% as the end-all of how good a player is. Metrics donít agree that THJ is much better. Or better at all. They are about even in BPM. And DSJ is better overall defensively, for whatever thatís worth. Any improvements at all in DSJs game, he blows past THJ. Thatís not arguable at all, as you say. Thatís ignoring the fact that DSJ can actually distribute, and create for others. Or also ignoring the fact that we are looking at this without factoring in we have similar level players, not on a similar salary.

    I also call BS on saying RIGHT NOW, like it proves anything. When are deals/signings ever made without evaluating future potential? Even small improvements in DSJs game will result in him becoming a superior player. And Iíd say thatís a pretty good bet, considering the large age/experience gap. Whatís more valuable, a volume scoring SG that offers little else, or a young PG with elite athleticism? I could go on too...

    So basically, going off what most felt about THJ when he was here, most considered him a bench scorer/rotation player on a good team, right? So youíre saying itís not likely we find a rotation player with mid-first round picks? And ones that arenít making a ridiculous amount of money

    But Iím not arguing your assessment it was a bad deal. It was made for cap space, which we didnít end up utilizing to anywhere near max value
    Last edited by ShadyOne; 09-28-2019 at 10:46 AM.

  14. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    You say Iím wrong. I say I see an inefficient volume shooter vs. a potentially good young PG. I love how people view TS% as the end-all of how good a player is. Metrics donít agree that THJ is much better. Or better at all. They are about even in BPM. And DSJ is better overall defensively, for whatever thatís worth. Any improvements at all in DSJs game, he blows past THJ. Thatís not arguable at all, as you say. Thatís ignoring the fact that DSJ can actually distribute, and create for others.

    I also call BS on saying RIGHT NOW, like it proves anything. When are deals/signings ever made without evaluating future potential? Even small improvements in DSJs game will result in him becoming a superior player. And Iíd say thatís a pretty good bet, considering the large age/experience gap. Whatís more valuable, a volume scoring SG that offers little else, or a young PG with elite athleticism? I could go on too...

    So basically, going off what most felt about THJ when he was here, most considered him a bench scorer/rotation player on a good team, right? So youíre saying itís not likely we find a rotation player with mid-first round picks?

    But Iím not arguing your assessment it was a bad deal.
    All you keep talking about is POTENTIAL. Which exactly proves my point.

    "DSjr can actuallydistribute, and create for others" does not mean one single thing when his Assist to Turnover ratio is nearly identical to THjr.

    I love that you are categorically dismissing the present as not mattering. LOL.

    Right now I do not see DSjr ever becoming more than equivalent to THjr in basketball value. I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I just don't see it. If DSjr looks in preseason how he looked last season on the Knicks, then I start Frank or Payton next to RJ. Let DSjr come off the bench.

  15. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Years View Post
    All you keep talking about is POTENTIAL. Which exactly proves my point.

    "DSjr can actuallydistribute, and create for others" does not mean one single thing when his Assist to Turnover ratio is nearly identical to THjr.

    I love that you are categorically dismissing the present as not mattering. LOL.

    Right now I do not see DSjr ever becoming more than equivalent to THjr in basketball value. I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I just don't see it. If DSjr looks in preseason how he looked last season on the Knicks, then I start Frank or Payton next to RJ. Let DSjr come off the bench.
    So assist to TO ratio is the only way to Judge a players passing skill/ability, or their worth in creating or running an offense? THJs ratio is better than the whole assist leaderboard. So heís one of the best in the league?

    Iím not dismissing anything. They are very similar in value right now. They each do some things better, some things worse. But not equal in salary, not equal in age, not equal in experience. To dismiss all that is ridiculous.

    And then thereís factoring in the reality that the trade was made primarily for cap space, and for moving a player that didnít want to stay
    Last edited by ShadyOne; 09-28-2019 at 11:55 AM.

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