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  1. #1066
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    there are so many good Guards in FA right now and rumors that more are about to get release (Zeitler & Norwell)

    If the Vikings don't find a way to get 1 solid starter at LG I may lose all hope.

  2. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Jorge 69 View Post
    there are so many good Guards in FA right now and rumors that more are about to get release (Zeitler & Norwell)

    If the Vikings don't find a way to get 1 solid starter at LG I may lose all hope.
    I logged in to come say the same thing lol Trai Turner is also looking likely to be cut. The Vikings tried to trade Griffen to the Browns for Zeitler back in 2019. I'm hoping we can sign him. He's going to be 31 in a few days and with the cap down I'm hoping vets like him will see a tough market so we can sign him cheaper. Zeitler has been one of the best pass blocking guards since he came into the league. Reiff-Cleveland-Bradbury-Zeitler-O'Neill might finally give us an OL good enough to win with.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  3. #1068
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    I am not really sure how we come up with the cap for something like that though.

    Rieff and Smith restructure, cut Barr along with Rudy/Shemar? If we do all of this maybe we can get one of the 2nd tier G's cap wise?

    I feel like even pushing a decent amount of cap down the road (which imo is very bad/further waste) still would leave us pretty limited on the FA market. Hard to say since everything will be a bit different this offseason with the limited cap but I am not overly expecting any big signings our way. I think we will be more limited and picking from the leftovers.

  4. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am not really sure how we come up with the cap for something like that though.

    Rieff and Smith restructure, cut Barr along with Rudy/Shemar? If we do all of this maybe we can get one of the 2nd tier G's cap wise?

    I feel like even pushing a decent amount of cap down the road (which imo is very bad/further waste) still would leave us pretty limited on the FA market. Hard to say since everything will be a bit different this offseason with the limited cap but I am not overly expecting any big signings our way. I think we will be more limited and picking from the leftovers.
    Iím guessing Zietler could be had on a 1 year deal for around 5-8 million. An extension for Harrison Smith is likely and can open up around 9 million in cap space. That would get us about 4-5 under the cap. Reiff could see an extension but I donít know what those numbers would look like. Stephen and Bailey could be cut. Hunters base salary could be converted to a signing bonus and that would open a lot of money. Itíll take some work but it can be done.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  5. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Iím guessing Zietler could be had on a 1 year deal for around 5-8 million. An extension for Harrison Smith is likely and can open up around 9 million in cap space. That would get us about 4-5 under the cap. Reiff could see an extension but I donít know what those numbers would look like. Stephen and Bailey could be cut. Hunters base salary could be converted to a signing bonus and that would open a lot of money. Itíll take some work but it can be done.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well it can be done in the sense you see to be pointing to is loading up cap in future years and pushing everything down the road. We did some of this last year and I just am not sure it's worth it tbh. I think we should make this team prove it can do something this year one way or another before using any more future assets (already don't have a 2nd trying to make last year improved).

    We will see, if it is on the lower end like 5 mil per year then that seems feasible I guess (I am not sure he goes that cheap though). We need to just maximize our cap this year as much as possible, I think that would probably mean a tier below but we can still hopefully get a starter on the cheap. If we push a bunch of cap down the road/use future assets and this team is a 10 or 11 win and quick playoff exit that is worse to me than just going 8-8 and restarting fresh.

  6. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well it can be done in the sense you see to be pointing to is loading up cap in future years and pushing everything down the road. We did some of this last year and I just am not sure it's worth it tbh. I think we should make this team prove it can do something this year one way or another before using any more future assets (already don't have a 2nd trying to make last year improved).

    We will see, if it is on the lower end like 5 mil per year then that seems feasible I guess (I am not sure he goes that cheap though). We need to just maximize our cap this year as much as possible, I think that would probably mean a tier below but we can still hopefully get a starter on the cheap. If we push a bunch of cap down the road/use future assets and this team is a 10 or 11 win and quick playoff exit that is worse to me than just going 8-8 and restarting fresh.
    The only one in my scenario who would have cash pushed down the road is Hunter. My thought process there is that if the rumors are even slightly true that he wants a new deal then giving him more guaranteed money should make him happier. Now when his base salary is converted into a signing bonus I would assume that 12.1 million is divided up between 2022 and 2023. They could distribute some of the bonus this year but I don't think so. That would make Hunters cap hits 23 and 20 million the next two years. Fair for somebody as good as Hunter. That should be affordable with the cap likely to begin rising again next year.

    Reiff and Smith seeing extensions plus cutting Stephen may be enough to sign somebody like Zeitler. If there is one thing I trust with this teams it cap management.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  7. #1072
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    It's always annoying to me to hear someone is wanting a new deal after not even playing the year before. We're supposed to pay you more for longer when we don't even know if you're the same after your injury yet?

    I hope it's just rumor
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    The only one in my scenario who would have cash pushed down the road is Hunter. My thought process there is that if the rumors are even slightly true that he wants a new deal then giving him more guaranteed money should make him happier. Now when his base salary is converted into a signing bonus I would assume that 12.1 million is divided up between 2022 and 2023. They could distribute some of the bonus this year but I don't think so. That would make Hunters cap hits 23 and 20 million the next two years. Fair for somebody as good as Hunter. That should be affordable with the cap likely to begin rising again next year.

    Reiff and Smith seeing extensions plus cutting Stephen may be enough to sign somebody like Zeitler. If there is one thing I trust with this teams it cap management.
    If we are saving 9 mil against the cap for Smith it is because that restructure has future cap added. There just isn't a way around that I am sorry it is how cap works when you save one year it then will be applied later. Then depending on Rieff that's why we extend as well, save cap this year but it would be owed at a later date (otherwise why would a player do it, would just be a pay cut they have to gain something and it is future earnings when you save that season). The extensions are designed to save cap now and pay it in the future throughout said extension.

    I don't overly trust this team anymore to make good future decisions. I think we saw this past season poor decision in trading our second and pushing cap down the road etc. already for a wasted season.To me it feels more like a group that is fighting for a job and is willing to sacrifice for the future just to make the playoffs and keep said jobs. I mean look at where we are right now with the cap, it's rough.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 03-06-2021 at 01:21 AM.

  9. #1074
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    One of the reasons our cap is rough though goes back to signing Cousins....and now we're in the situation again where our choice is to extend, pushing the can down the road again, or overpay and be done. He's always just good enough to kinda deserve the money yet not good enough to be OK with it.

    It's not horrible this year at $31mil but next year it's $45 if they don't redo. Would they do that this year? Or is next year's dead cap palatable enough to cut him after this season?

    IMO it's not been the decisions the team has made as much as the bad luck with a few of them. The Yannick trade wasn't a good one because even if he worked out, how were we going to pay him now? This offseason is going to see some unprecented talent changes because some teams were in a good position to deal with the cap lowering and others weren't.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    One of the reasons our cap is rough though goes back to signing Cousins....and now we're in the situation again where our choice is to extend, pushing the can down the road again, or overpay and be done. He's always just good enough to kinda deserve the money yet not good enough to be OK with it.

    It's not horrible this year at $31mil but next year it's $45 if they don't redo. Would they do that this year? Or is next year's dead cap palatable enough to cut him after this season?

    IMO it's not been the decisions the team has made as much as the bad luck with a few of them. The Yannick trade wasn't a good one because even if he worked out, how were we going to pay him now? This offseason is going to see some unprecented talent changes because some teams were in a good position to deal with the cap lowering and others weren't.
    The money next year is guaranteed very soon, mid March this season I think it becomes guaranteed (like first week of new season when fa will start etc).

    Also ya having that type of massive hit coming for a qb not worth that much and limiting the rest of our options is part of my point. Itís one of the reasons/examples we are in this position cap wise and it came down to them pushing hard last season to keep competing losing other assets like that 2nd as well for a lost season.

    I donít overly trust this group with the decisions they have been making as it pertains to cap. I think Rudy was an example too of not being worth that, we did move on but there was some dead cap too now. I donít think we are making good team building decisions, we are pushing it down the road and using assets like that pick etc to stay afloat and compete just for that 10 win season (which we missed last year). The worst thing we can do is push it out even more and be stuck with massive hits even longer for guys that just arenít gonna be worth it.


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  11. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    If we are saving 9 mil against the cap for Smith it is because that restructure has future cap added. There just isn't a way around that I am sorry it is how cap works when you save one year it then will be applied later. Then depending on Rieff that's why we extend as well, save cap this year but it would be owed at a later date (otherwise why would a player do it, would just be a pay cut they have to gain something and it is future earnings when you save that season). The extensions are designed to save cap now and pay it in the future throughout said extension.

    I don't overly trust this team anymore to make good future decisions. I think we saw this past season poor decision in trading our second and pushing cap down the road etc. already for a wasted season.To me it feels more like a group that is fighting for a job and is willing to sacrifice for the future just to make the playoffs and keep said jobs. I mean look at where we are right now with the cap, it's rough.
    Extensions and restructures are not the same thing, though. If we convert Hunter's base salary into a signing bonus then yes that money is push down the road and we will owe every penny. Extending Smith and Reiff will depend on how much money they are guaranteed in their new deal. If Smith is given an extension and his cap hit is lowered to the minimum then all that means is over the next 2-3-4 years Smith will be guaranteed at least that much (which he would be getting anyway because he's Harrison Smith) but he'll still likely end up with a deal that has little guaranteed money left towards the end of the deal. Other than Cousins, almost all of the contracts the Vikings give out has little guaranteed money over the final 1-2 years. The main reason their in this situation now is because the cap dropped, which nobody could have saw this coming because of COVID. In a normal year the cap would have risen and we would likely be around 10-15 million under the cap.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  12. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Extensions and restructures are not the same thing, though. If we convert Hunter's base salary into a signing bonus then yes that money is push down the road and we will owe every penny. Extending Smith and Reiff will depend on how much money they are guaranteed in their new deal. If Smith is given an extension and his cap hit is lowered to the minimum then all that means is over the next 2-3-4 years Smith will be guaranteed at least that much (which he would be getting anyway because he's Harrison Smith) but he'll still likely end up with a deal that has little guaranteed money left towards the end of the deal. Other than Cousins, almost all of the contracts the Vikings give out has little guaranteed money over the final 1-2 years. The main reason their in this situation now is because the cap dropped, which nobody could have saw this coming because of COVID. In a normal year the cap would have risen and we would likely be around 10-15 million under the cap.
    I meant extension my bad and if that is how you build the contract then years 2 and 3 will be the ones with the hit. Like Cousins 45 mil next year that we will have, that's the type of stuff you do when you push it back in the extension is what I am getting at. If his hit is lower this year like Cousins and we are only guaranteeing a couple years those are gonna be the ones where him and his agent want much of their payday. People know how the backloaded unguaranteed contracts work. Barr has a 15 mil cap hit this year and next with 7 and 5 mil hits if cut still. That is the type of stuff that happens when you backload (following its like 18 mil but only 2 in hits if cut). We made that deal without him having the leverage of saving year one and having to push anything back.

    It's not only the end of the deal if we set it up like that it is just in the end you pay it somewhere. Not paying it this year is great but eventually you end up paying guys of high talent. I am not saying we can't do some of it but again I just think when you look at Cousins, Barr, Rudolph, trading that 2nd etc. we have been making questionable decisions and furthering to make those types might not be the best way forward continuing to push issues down the road further (to get out of the hole we already dug ourselves currently).

  13. #1078
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I meant extension my bad and if that is how you build the contract then years 2 and 3 will be the ones with the hit. Like Cousins 45 mil next year that we will have, that's the type of stuff you do when you push it back in the extension is what I am getting at. If his hit is lower this year like Cousins and we are only guaranteeing a couple years those are gonna be the ones where him and his agent want much of their payday. People know how the backloaded unguaranteed contracts work. Barr has a 15 mil cap hit this year and next with 7 and 5 mil hits if cut still. That is the type of stuff that happens when you backload (following its like 18 mil but only 2 in hits if cut). We made that deal without him having the leverage of saving year one and having to push anything back.

    It's not only the end of the deal if we set it up like that it is just in the end you pay it somewhere. Not paying it this year is great but eventually you end up paying guys of high talent. I am not saying we can't do some of it but again I just think when you look at Cousins, Barr, Rudolph, trading that 2nd etc. we have been making questionable decisions and furthering to make those types might not be the best way forward continuing to push issues down the road further (to get out of the hole we already dug ourselves currently).
    Actually I think Barr's contract helps my point. His cap hit year 1 was a team friendly 5.6 million. His deal is back loaded in the sense that his base salary goes up but his dead money falls by over half after the first 2 years. 5.2 million in dead money isn't going to really hurt much, especially when you consider the cap should start going back up. Years 2 and 3 of Barr's deal he's paid out 22.3 of his total 33 guaranteed. So the majority of the guaranteed money he's due is being paid out during the years you are expecting him to be on the roster and performing. I think as a team you can deal with cap hits of 15 million. That's only about 1.5-2 million more a year if the deal would have been structured to pay out the AAV each year instead of having the cap savings in year 1. I mean I don't think the FO was hoping they would be cutting Barr at some point but if you had to cut bait then freeing up 10 million in 2022 and another 18 in 2023 is a good position to be in. Most of the deals the team gives out leaves you the flexibility to cut bait early while also giving cap relief in the first year. I prefer the team give out deals like this. They seem to make the most sense IMO because of the flexibility you have. I mean you're going to pay that guaranteed money anyway so might as well pay it early in the deal and give yourself an out if you need it. That's what I expect to see Harrison Smith sign.
    2021 Vikings Draft:
    1: Christian Darrisaw OT Virginia Tech
    3: Kellen Mond QB Texas A&M
    3: Chazz Surratt LB North Carolina
    3: Wyatt Davis G Ohio State
    3: Patrick Jones III DE Pittsburgh
    4: Kene Nwangwu RB Iowa State
    4: Camryn Bynum S California
    4: Janarius Robinson DE Florida State
    5: Ihmir Smith-Marsette WR Iowa
    5: Zach Davidson TE Central Missouri St.
    6: Jaylen Twyman DT Pittsburgh

  14. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Actually I think Barr's contract helps my point. His cap hit year 1 was a team friendly 5.6 million. His deal is back loaded in the sense that his base salary goes up but his dead money falls by over half after the first 2 years. 5.2 million in dead money isn't going to really hurt much, especially when you consider the cap should start going back up. Years 2 and 3 of Barr's deal he's paid out 22.3 of his total 33 guaranteed. So the majority of the guaranteed money he's due is being paid out during the years you are expecting him to be on the roster and performing. I think as a team you can deal with cap hits of 15 million. That's only about 1.5-2 million more a year if the deal would have been structured to pay out the AAV each year instead of having the cap savings in year 1. I mean I don't think the FO was hoping they would be cutting Barr at some point but if you had to cut bait then freeing up 10 million in 2022 and another 18 in 2023 is a good position to be in. Most of the deals the team gives out leaves you the flexibility to cut bait early while also giving cap relief in the first year. I prefer the team give out deals like this. They seem to make the most sense IMO because of the flexibility you have. I mean you're going to pay that guaranteed money anyway so might as well pay it early in the deal and give yourself an out if you need it. That's what I expect to see Harrison Smith sign.
    I don't think it does, in order for that low cap hit we now are stuck at 15 mil per year with no easy escape (he isn't worth his contract, we are desperate for cap, and he still isn't an easy cut because we don't save half of the hit). 5.2 mil for someone that isn't playing is still not a good thing at all and when you are doing this with multiple people it adds up is the point/issue. If we do this the year Cousins is owed 45 mil that is 50 mil in cap used and only Cousins on the field for us, that is pretty ridiculous. Now in this case you actually already have a season where you would be putting the cap closer to 0 as well you were saying. As I said it has to be paid out eventually and we are stuck with him making like top 7 LB money despite never having that type of production or a cap hit for literally nothing. It isn't a good way to maximize cap at all to be overpaying people in seasons or cutting people with cap hits of millions of dollars without any production/on field value. It is what teams that have put themselves in tough positions do and it is why we need to consider these moves right now, we have made poor decisions sticking ourselves in this current spot. Making the same type of decisions to compound the issue is what you do if you are all in for a title but I think we are moreso doing it so the FO/coaches can fight to make the playoffs to keep their jobs which isn't even remotely as worth it. If these moves don't end up in titles it is just wasted years and that is what I fear we will realize too late this team can't get there with Cousins then be stuck with his contract and multiple more where cap has been pushed back so we have a couple wasted years to follow (if this year isn't playoffs thats really really rough).

    I am not saying don't make deals where you can bail out early, I am saying don't make deals you will later regret with little ability to get rid of without waiting an extra year or two while still having dead cap even after doing that. It isn't the structuring of the deal I have issues with it is that you still have those large hits it just happens in years 2/3 with little flexibility to get out (we either pay Barr like 40+% to cut or keep him this year, Cousins is fully guaranteed very soon etc at much higher prices than they are worth). We shouldn't be continuing this trend that put us in this hole and used up assets to put together a non playoff team.

  15. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingsfan0845 View Post
    Iím guessing Zietler could be had on a 1 year deal for around 5-8 million. An extension for Harrison Smith is likely and can open up around 9 million in cap space. That would get us about 4-5 under the cap. Reiff could see an extension but I donít know what those numbers would look like. Stephen and Bailey could be cut. Hunters base salary could be converted to a signing bonus and that would open a lot of money. Itíll take some work but it can be done.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Iwas about to post the same thoughts except cutting barr.

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