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  1. #271
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    Amazing what happens when you get NHL caliber goaltending.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    agreed. that's why i'm not willing to throw someone like frost or patrick into a deal for seguin



    if you want to change the culture of this team, this locker room, this is what has to happen. two new players won't change the culture. a handful of mismatched parts won't change the culture.

    adding zuccarello: small, fast, skilled
    adding eberle: small, fast, skilled
    adding hagelin: small, fast, ...small
    adding frost: small, fast, skilled
    adding NAK: small, fast, ...fast

    to giroux: small, fast, skilled
    to konecny: small, fast, skilled

    that would be 7 of 8 wings next season who would all play the same style, the same tempo. that forces everyone else to raise their tempo to match.

    instead of patrick slowing down to match simmonds and JVR, he'd have to set his hair on fire to keep up with the pace of zuccarello and konecny. laughton? try not to pull a groin going from two years of playing with weise and lehtera to getting to training camp and seeing you're with NAK and hagelin.

    that's what a culture shift looks like.

    Without getting into names, trade scenarios etc...............to your point on the player attributes........I believe this has been where we've failed for the last bunch of years in roster construction. Not relative to the guys who are our core but more the bottom 6 guys who are more the role players. We can't ever seem to round out the roster in a way that supports a specific style of play or the all important identity that drives the team. Instead of rounding out the roster with guys that have either legit speed or legit physicality that can win wall battles we end up with guys who are neither and vanilla......The Vandevelde's, Weiss's, Lehtera's....for years it always seems it's those handfuls of players that we don't fill out correctly. All players can't be the exact same, but for the most part a certain portion of your roster needs to be in the same direction. You either need to play fast run the tempo high or play a heavy, hard charging, grinding game, winning battles and maintaining possession.........we've had too many of our role players fit neither profile.......to me it just really ends up robbing the team of getting behind a true style or a focus. Which ultimately is why I don't think we need to blow up the core to actually win.......if we are smart we will decide if we want to play fast or play big and get a coach who will coach that way and round out the roster with guys who are built for the system and maintain momentum of it during the game. You need some variety, sure, but we need a couple more of specific style to establish a real actual system and consistency of play.

  3. #273
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    As for Panarin, why would you not take a better player for a lower aav?
    why would we trade a high-value asset for something we could get for free in the summer?

    trading voracek to ANA for ritchie and terry then waiting to sign panarin in the summer would have more upside for us, right. why not do that? or whatever version of that you'd prefer.

    this has been where we've failed for the last bunch of years in roster construction. Not relative to the guys who are our core but more the bottom 6 guys who are more the role players. We can't ever seem to round out the roster in a way that supports a specific style of play or the all important identity that drives the team. Instead of rounding out the roster with guys that have either legit speed or legit physicality that can win wall battles we end up with guys who are neither and vanilla......The Vandevelde's, Weiss's, Lehtera's....for years it always seems it's those handfuls of players that we don't fill out correctly.
    exactly.

    it's not a coincidence that our only extended run of good performance with hextall as GM came when our bottom 6 was:
    laughton - bellemare - raffl
    cousins - white - vandevelde

    none of those players were very good, but they played a style that was hard and fast and physical. even though they weren't a threat to score goals, they forced opponents to grind even when our core players weren't on the ice.
    Which ultimately is why I don't think we need to blow up the core to actually win.......if we are smart we will decide if we want to play fast or play big and get a coach who will coach that way and round out the roster with guys who are built for the system and maintain momentum of it during the game. You need some variety, sure, but we need a couple more of specific style to establish a real actual system and consistency of play.
    that was a viable plan 2 years ago. it was viable last year. it was viable this offseason. i don't think it's viable anymore. i think we waited too long, and the rot now is too deep.

    the phrase is "a few bad apples spoils the bunch", and we've had a lot of bad apples in our lineup for way too long.

    if we tweak around the edges as you suggest, the cost of being wrong is another 2 years of waiting for something that will never happen.

    if we blow the core up, whether it's the right decision or the wrong one, there is no difference in where we wind up.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    why would we trade a high-value asset for something we could get for free in the summer?

    trading voracek to ANA for ritchie and terry then waiting to sign panarin in the summer would have more upside for us, right. why not do that? or whatever version of that you'd prefer.
    agree with the first statement. Not the second.

    Trading voracek for terry and ritchie is a complete waste of "high end asset". I don't know if you watch the ducks but ritchie is pure garbage. Terry is decent but not straight up for voracek. Also, the ducks don't spend big and can't really afford voracek, especially because they have kesler and perry with awful contracts.

    arizona could be a place to trade voracek to. They have some nice pieces in dvorak, fischer, galchenyuk, and some nice prospects. Not many teams can trade for voracek. Pretty much the only teams are minnesota, arizona, no one in our division, tampa/leafs/boston are most likely out, and many other teams are rebuilding.

    Maybe the avs? Voracek for their 1st, kaut, idk who else
    voracek for bjugstad and heponiemi?
    Last edited by 3iverson3; 01-11-2019 at 03:38 AM.

  5. #275
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    Best things I think we can do is address the team in the offseason. Trade simmonds, weal, and raffl if you can. See what pick you get and if they can make the team sign a few players. With simmonds and raffl gone, frost takes up one spot on the 3rd line and the other can hopefully be filled via fa or the draft. 4th line should be an easy fix.

    A coaching hire to really give the team an identity can change the "fresh look". I would like to add a shooter however.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    why would we trade a high-value asset for something we could get for free in the summer?
    Because there is no guarantee he evens listens to an offer from the flyers in the summer. Similar to Tavaras.

    If you bring him in now, the hope is he likes it. He likes his linemates and other teammates. The other bonus is the extra year the flyers would be allowed to give him.

    Think about the Paul George trade in the nba. Do you think they had ANY chance to sign him if they didn't trade for him? The other examples are butler and kawhi.


    Hockey examples, were after the 07 season homer traded for the rights to both Kimo and Hartnell prior to them hitting UFA status. Then locked down the deal.


    Making the move for panarin actually makes some sense. Ideally the flyers would get an additional asset or 2, in case he doesnt sign long term. But there is a legitimate case for doing it now

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    Because there is no guarantee he evens listens to an offer from the flyers in the summer. Similar to Tavaras.

    If you bring him in now, the hope is he likes it. He likes his linemates and other teammates. The other bonus is the extra year the flyers would be allowed to give him.

    Think about the Paul George trade in the nba. Do you think they had ANY chance to sign him if they didn't trade for him? The other examples are butler and kawhi.


    Hockey examples, were after the 07 season homer traded for the rights to both Kimo and Hartnell prior to them hitting UFA status. Then locked down the deal.


    Making the move for panarin actually makes some sense. Ideally the flyers would get an additional asset or 2, in case he doesnt sign long term. But there is a legitimate case for doing it now
    Those are completely different though. Panarin probably wants to play for the hawks or with a russian. Or maybe he has ties somewhere else. Paul george going to okc is completely different because he gets to play with a superstar. It really doesn't make any sense to get panarin as we aren't contending this year. Essentially we would lose voracek and panarin for nothing. We probably get a bottom 6 prospect as well. Then we go into next year with another huge hole and then they would probably resign simmonds. Terrible scenario for us and a huge gamble thats not worth is unless they win a cup this year with panarin (not gunna happen)

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    Those are completely different though. Panarin probably wants to play for the hawks or with a russian. Or maybe he has ties somewhere else. Paul george going to okc is completely different because he gets to play with a superstar. It really doesn't make any sense to get panarin as we aren't contending this year. Essentially we would lose voracek and panarin for nothing. We probably get a bottom 6 prospect as well. Then we go into next year with another huge hole and then they would probably resign simmonds. Terrible scenario for us and a huge gamble thats not worth is unless they win a cup this year with panarin (not gunna happen)
    First off, your looking at this like Jake voracek is a tradeable asset that is going to net a haul of a return. I'm not so sure hes movable without retaining salary, or taking a bad contract back.

    Secondly, another star? What is claude Giroux? The flyers have another star.

    Third, it's not difficult to have a conditional first round pick in the trade if the flyers are unable to resign panarin.

    Fourth, the extra money in the deal is very possibly enough to entice him to stay, before ever hitting UFA.

    Panarin>>>Voracek

    Losing voracek for nothing, and being able to use his 8+million to do something else isnt necessarily a bad thing.

    If panarin chose to avoid free agency and stay in philly the trade is more than worth it. If he doesnt, the silver lining is the extra cap space and whatever conditional returns were placed in this hypothetical, never going to happen trade

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    First off, your looking at this like Jake voracek is a tradeable asset that is going to net a haul of a return. I'm not so sure hes movable without retaining salary, or taking a bad contract back.

    Secondly, another star? What is claude Giroux? The flyers have another star.

    Third, it's not difficult to have a conditional first round pick in the trade if the flyers are unable to resign panarin.

    Fourth, the extra money in the deal is very possibly enough to entice him to stay, before ever hitting UFA.

    Panarin>>>Voracek

    Losing voracek for nothing, and being able to use his 8+million to do something else isnt necessarily a bad thing.

    If panarin chose to avoid free agency and stay in philly the trade is more than worth it. If he doesnt, the silver lining is the extra cap space and whatever conditional returns were placed in this hypothetical, never going to happen trade
    Voracek and Panarin are actually comparable players, if you look at production + performance.

    That doesn't mean that this trend will continue (as Jake is ~3 years older than Panarin) -- but right now, if you're making a list of "the best RWs in hockey", there are names above Jake. But that list isn't very long.

    Again, this entire discussion above is why I *don't* want to trade Voracek for Panarin. If we're going to move Jake, I want to get a younger player (20-24) who we can get under club control for the foreseeable future and who we can add to our emerging young core (Provorov, Sanheim, Hart, Patrick, Konecny, Couturier).

    If there's a hockey trade to be made (Seguin for Voracek, because DAL is stupid, for instance), then by all means, make the deal. But in absense of that, trade Voracek for someone younger.

    Also, let's remember that PPG players (which is what Voracek is) tend to get paid in FA. I'd venture to say that if Jake was a FA this off-season, he'd get $9M+ AAV on a 7 year deal. That's not being a "homer" -- that's just looking at what other players with similar production have been paid over the past few years.

    And that's BEFORE the deals given to guys like Nylander ($7.5M+) and JVR ($7M AAV) are factored into the equation. At the end of the day, if you offered every NHL GM the ability to sign Jake Voracek for 4/$8M AAV, I don't think there are many who would pass.

  10. #280
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    I'm sorry, but I've heard this "few bad apples" crap going on and on and on since before Richie and Carter were with the team. Maybe, considering we're *****ing about the same stuff through multiple cores, MAYBE, it's not stemming from the players. Really think back and consider how many years and how many coaches we've had where we complain about slow starts and the players getting lazy.

  11. #281
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    Steagles, you can't build a team of small guys the size of Zucarello and Giroux. You're literally just gonna be pushed to the side and bigger teams are gonna walk all over you. That's a terrible strategy. Let's start signing figure skaters while we're at it. You need a mix dude. You need size, speed, skill, all of it. Not just small, fast guys. You need some big dudes too other than Morin or Sanheim.

  12. #282
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    Also, all of this Panarin talk...there's no guarantee he would even consider wanting to come here. Let's not hinge our hopes on that. He has plenty of teams to choose from, some of whom would gladly find ways to make room to add him to their roster.

    Edit... I'd imagine his ideal place to go to would be Washington. Their lineup would be nasty with him and Ovie. Too bad they gave Oshie and Wilson those bloated contracts.
    Last edited by lambofgode3x; 01-11-2019 at 12:36 PM.

  13. #283
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    Steagles, you can't build a team of small guys the size of Zucarello and Giroux. You're literally just gonna be pushed to the side and bigger teams are gonna walk all over you. That's a terrible strategy. Let's start signing figure skaters while we're at it. You need a mix dude. You need size, speed, skill, all of it. Not just small, fast guys. You need some big dudes too other than Morin or Sanheim.
    that's where the farm system has to pay dividends.

    you bring in zuccarello/eberle/hagelin/stralman to change the culture, to establish an identity that imprints itself on the franchise with every shift.

    after that, you need rubtsov to step in and step up. you need lindblom to step up. you need allison/ratcliffe/farabee/etc. to come in, to carry that pace, that intensity into the future. by adding bigger prospects into a lineup built on speed, we should be able to forge a team that has the benefit of both.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    First off, your looking at this like Jake voracek is a tradeable asset that is going to net a haul of a return. I'm not so sure hes movable without retaining salary, or taking a bad contract back.

    Secondly, another star? What is claude Giroux? The flyers have another star.

    Third, it's not difficult to have a conditional first round pick in the trade if the flyers are unable to resign panarin.

    Fourth, the extra money in the deal is very possibly enough to entice him to stay, before ever hitting UFA.

    Panarin>>>Voracek

    Losing voracek for nothing, and being able to use his 8+million to do something else isnt necessarily a bad thing.

    If panarin chose to avoid free agency and stay in philly the trade is more than worth it. If he doesnt, the silver lining is the extra cap space and whatever conditional returns were placed in this hypothetical, never going to happen trade
    You pretty much just echoed every sentiment I had when coming up with that scenario. Worst case scenario you get out from under a player that appears to be declining with a massive contract to still be played out. Also, if you want to change the culture you shake up the core. Even of Panarin doesn't sign like you said you could potentially get a conditional 1st round pick and then go throw that money at someone like Skinner or god forbid sign Marner or Matthews to an offer sheet. How fun would that be?

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    Voracek and Panarin are actually comparable players, if you look at production + performance.

    That doesn't mean that this trend will continue (as Jake is ~3 years older than Panarin) -- but right now, if you're making a list of "the best RWs in hockey", there are names above Jake. But that list isn't very long.

    Again, this entire discussion above is why I *don't* want to trade Voracek for Panarin. If we're going to move Jake, I want to get a younger player (20-24) who we can get under club control for the foreseeable future and who we can add to our emerging young core (Provorov, Sanheim, Hart, Patrick, Konecny, Couturier).

    If there's a hockey trade to be made (Seguin for Voracek, because DAL is stupid, for instance), then by all means, make the deal. But in absense of that, trade Voracek for someone younger.

    Also, let's remember that PPG players (which is what Voracek is) tend to get paid in FA. I'd venture to say that if Jake was a FA this off-season, he'd get $9M+ AAV on a 7 year deal. That's not being a "homer" -- that's just looking at what other players with similar production have been paid over the past few years.

    And that's BEFORE the deals given to guys like Nylander ($7.5M+) and JVR ($7M AAV) are factored into the equation. At the end of the day, if you offered every NHL GM the ability to sign Jake Voracek for 4/$8M AAV, I don't think there are many who would pass.
    But there also aren't many with the cap space to just absorb the remainder of his contract. And there is the little issue with he isn't a ppg player.

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