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View Poll Results: Which do you take?

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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    MJ's own words..

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...375-story.html

    Once you get past your initial defender, it was too late and the ball was already on its way to the basket. MJ knows this. He benefited from it more than anyone else.
    He was wrong


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He was wrong


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    no he wasn't. The older rules made it far easier for players who could get to the rim at an elite level to score in the paint. Guys couldn't double until a basketball move was actually made, which many times means it is too late to stop penetration.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    MJ's own words..

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...375-story.html

    Once you get past your initial defender, it was too late and the ball was already on its way to the basket. MJ knows this. He benefited from it more than anyone else.
    Kobe has said the same ****. But what do they know, right?

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Kobe has said the same ****. But what do they know, right?
    Not much b/c scoring didn't "plummet" and it certainly teams aren't scoring less now then they were right before 2001
    Last edited by ewing; 01-11-2019 at 11:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    no he wasn't. The older rules made it far easier for players who could get to the rim at an elite level to score in the paint. Guys couldn't double until a basketball move was actually made, which many times means it is too late to stop penetration.
    the older rules made it easier for offenses to manipulate defense to force a favorable 1 on 1 situation. It wasn't necessarily easier to get to the rim as there were more bodies banging down low. lanes were more clogged. perimeter players also needed mid-range games back then and that was a big part of the game, so guys had to pick and choose when to drive. you had to set up the defender and defense differently vs.now. today driving lanes are way more open because bigs have to step out more to guard their man and or help/switch. the way your setting up defenses is forcing the bigs to make a decision. the best offenses/players prey on defenses by forcing the help and either kicking it out or take advantage up the open lane by going to the hole. offenses now is mostly pnr drive and kick. offenses then in the 90s was more inside out throw it to the post guy and if the match-up is favorable let the guy work and score, if the double comes the big will kick it to the shooter/perimeter player. sometimes you ran the offenses through guys who could attack the rim like clyde and isiah, but even then post game was a solid complement. mj in his prime was the exception of lesser post play by a team. i am sure the amount of drive and kick and drive and hoop rates are higher now, because of pace and space and zones being not true (as you can only camp in there for 3 seconds or less). you could beat slow help back then, but there were guys banging down low almost 24/7 back then, so the help could at times come from either frontcourt position, so the help could come. maybe in the 80s defenses couldn't deal with the pace, but by the early to mid 1990's defenses adjusted and pace of play slowed down. by the late 90's and early 2000s, basketball was getting ugly so they kept tinkering to this day to increase scoring and possibly pace, now they are trying to make it easier to rain threes lol.

    of course mj will initially say the rule changes make it harder, but like how defenses adjusted from the 80's to 90's, guys like mj could adapt once they figured out the proper counters and put in the work. i think mj could feast on the harden role or the derozan spurs role. booker role or whatever. thibs countered some of the rule changes, then others countered thibs defense. at this point though they just keep changing the rules to make it more difficult for defenses to game plan (not impossible for much harder).

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    the older rules made it easier for offenses to manipulate defense to force a favorable 1 on 1 situation. It wasn't necessarily easier to get to the rim as there were more bodies banging down low. lanes were more clogged. perimeter players also needed mid-range games back then and that was a big part of the game, so guys had to pick and choose when to drive. you had to set up the defender and defense differently vs.now. today driving lanes are way more open because bigs have to step out more to guard their man and or help/switch. the way your setting up defenses is forcing the bigs to make a decision. the best offenses/players prey on defenses by forcing the help and either kicking it out or take advantage up the open lane by going to the hole. offenses now is mostly pnr drive and kick. offenses then in the 90s was more inside out throw it to the post guy and if the match-up is favorable let the guy work and score, if the double comes the big will kick it to the shooter/perimeter player. sometimes you ran the offenses through guys who could attack the rim like clyde and isiah, but even then post game was a solid complement. i am sure the amount of drive and kick and drive and hoop rates are higher now, because of pace and space and zones being not true (as you can only camp in there for 3 seconds or less). you could beat slow help back then, but there were guys banging down low almost 24/7 back then, so the help could at times come from either frontcourt position, so the help could come. maybe in the 80s defenses couldn't deal with the pace, but by the early to mid 1990's defenses adjusted and pace of play slowed down. by the late 90's and early 2000s, basketball was getting ugly so they kept tinkering to this day to increase scoring and possibly pace, now they are trying to make it easier to rain threes lol.

    of course mj will initially say the rule changes make it harder, but like how defenses adjusted from the 80's to 90's, guys like mj could adapt once they figured out the proper counters and put in the work. i think mj could feast on the harden role or the derozan spurs role. booker role or whatever. thibs countered some of the rule changes, then others countered thibs defense. at this point though they just keep changing the rules to make it more difficult for defenses to game plan (not impossible for much harder).
    yes, exactly.

    Dude, I really like your posts, but they are SO LONG haha.

    The league has adjusted to the zone allowance by simply spreading the floor. So now players can drive easily, but more kicks are happening. In the 2000's, when hand checking was outlawed, and floor spacing wasn't there yet, it was miserable for driving guards to play in. Those were the rules MJ/Kobe HATED. Today they would score a little less, but their assist numbers would skyrocket.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Not much b/c scoring didn't "plummet" and it certainly aren't scoring less now then they were right before 2001
    distribution of scoring has changed. MJ likes to score. His scoring post 2000-ish would have taken a hit. Hence why he likes the old rules of beating a single guy then having a wide open lane in front of him.

    MJ/Kobe like the rules in their individual favor. And the old rules give them that.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    distribution of scoring has changed. MJ likes to score. His scoring post 2000-ish would have taken a hit. Hence why he likes the old rules of beating a single guy then having a wide open lane in front of him.

    MJ/Kobe like the rules in their individual favor. And the old rules give them that.
    MJ liked to win. He scored 37 a game in year two. 35 a night on 53% from the floor in year 3. If he wanted 40 he'd get it. The only time he might have had trouble averaging 40 is from around 95 to like 2005s when teams were averaging 90. You are right that his assist would sky rocket rocket today b/c his team would just spread the floor and let him drive. I don't see why he couldn't average 40 though. if he wanted 40 he would
    Last edited by ewing; 01-11-2019 at 11:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  9. #114
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    remember back in the day when the NBA was star dominate. Man the zone really changed that.
    Last edited by ewing; 01-11-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    yes, exactly.

    Dude, I really like your posts, but they are SO LONG haha.

    The league has adjusted to the zone allowance by simply spreading the floor. So now players can drive easily, but more kicks are happening. In the 2000's, when hand checking was outlawed, and floor spacing wasn't there yet, it was miserable for driving guards to play in. Those were the rules MJ/Kobe HATED. Today they would score a little less, but their assist numbers would skyrocket.
    lol, most of the time i do short and simple responses. yea it was pretty ugly from the late 90's to mid 2000s. late 90's was when the golden age of 5's started aging/retiring. it was only shaq and duncan after that, that's why lakers and spurs dominated late 90's to mid 2000s. i think when perimeter scorers were forced to carry offenses/scoring during that time it was harder to dominate compared to Shaq and timmy. skilled and dominant bigs were getting less and lesser, so they gradually made it easier and easier for ballhandlers/wings.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    lol, most of the time i do short and simple responses. yea it was pretty ugly from the late 90's to mid 2000s. late 90's was when the golden age of 5's started aging/retiring. it was only shaq and duncan after that, that's why lakers and spurs dominated late 90's to mid 2000s. i think when perimeter scorers were forced to carry offenses/scoring during that time it was harder to dominate compared to Shaq and timmy. skilled and dominant bigs were getting less and lesser, so they gradually made it easier and easier for ballhandlers/wings.
    well, the trench bigs started to go away because they just weren't needed anymore.

    You made me think of something-I wonder if the early-mid 2000's, when the age of the dominant PF, was the transformation of the "stretch" big we see today? Meaning, the dominant guys (Tim, KG, Dirk, Webber, McDyess, Sheed, etc), were kinda bigs who could at least face up from 15-18, which we hadn't seen before league wide.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    remember back in the day when the NBA was star dominate. Man the zone really changed that.
    oh for sure dude. It took away 1-1 dominance to some degree for sure.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    oh for sure dude. It took away 1-1 dominance to some degree for sure.
    then how come Glennis nets 26 a night going one on one with a spread floor despite having no jump shot and no moves other then a power dribble and a euro step? I mean James Harden actually sets an NBA record for most dribbles taken in a game every night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    even if we believe the old NBA was tougher, better defense, etc (much of that is myth), as long as the rules are the same for all players, I would lean to the newer guys with the modern rules and the older guys with the older rules. Simply because of the floor spacer/ball handlers versus trench bigs in the respective eras.
    Definitely dont disagree. You watch the defenses of the 80s and it's just atrocious even if you could clean a guy out and have it be a common foul. I still miss the days of basketball being a contact sport. Not being able to touch a guy without it being a foul is just aggravating to watch. I know it's mostly nostalgia but I just hate the pussification of the game. I don't think you should be able to clothesline a guy and have it be a regular foul but putting your hand/elbow on a guys hip/side on the way to the basket???? Come on man, let the guys be a little physical. I know it'll never happen but a guy can dream.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    then how come Glennis nets 26 a night going one on one with a spread floor despite having no jump shot and no moves other then a power dribble and a euro step? I mean James Harden actually sets an NBA record for most dribbles taken in a game every night.
    because the league still has star dominance, but it's all wing/guard oriented. I figured you meant across the league/positions.

    I mean, Nique couldn't shoot until post injury, and he was a 30 ppg star.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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