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  1. #61
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    I'm not too familiar with the dead money situation in the NFL. In other sports, when you trade a player, you also trade his contract. In the NFL I know it's different. With that said, it probably makes no sense to trade him at this point. The time to trade him would be before giving him the big contract. Now we ride or die with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by El Patito View Post
    Wow, you just won't let this go will you? I'd be more than happy to provide the numbers again if you'd like. The fact is that Marmol in his best season, put up one of the greatest performances by a reliever in the history of baseball. Better than Rivera? Youre damn right. You can't deny this.
    Marmolololololol

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    You have to understand the importance of having an elite wr like OBJ on the field with a RB like Barkley.

    Canít stack the box with OBJ out there. It makes a world of difference for Barkley.

    Iíd rather have both of them and sign a Bridgewater or Keenum than lose OBJ to draft a ? QB.

    Secure the oline, set obj and Barkley in motion on half the snaps, Shep and Engram out there, and it wonít matter who the qb is.
    Well thatís true, but then again, do you really need an OBJ for that, or would any solid speed wr that can take the top off do the trick?

    Again, Iím not saying I would definitely trade him, and I would ask for more than a 1st and 3rd rounder. I just wonder whether in some way obj wouldnít be under utilized if you understand what I mean. And if you donít utilize obj to the fullest, because Barkley is your main guy and you have 2 other good receivers in EE and Shep, and you get a great offer I would consider it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    I'm not too familiar with the dead money situation in the NFL. In other sports, when you trade a player, you also trade his contract. In the NFL I know it's different. With that said, it probably makes no sense to trade him at this point. The time to trade him would be before giving him the big contract. Now we ride or die with him.
    In NFL when you give a guy "guaranteed" money.... That is something u must pay. If u trade or release him, u still gotta pay that. That's where dead money comes in.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyubi256 View Post
    ^I think that's something they will need to resolve before the draft. Especially if they're serious about Haskins. If anything they can have Eli start this year and next year while Haskins develops. Next year there probably will be a lockout and shortened season anyways
    Forget the draft, Iíd say itís something that needs to be done well before FA. If Eli is not our qb next year because they canít agree on an extension or if they trade him or release or whatever, then itís not enough to draft a QB. You need to get a Bridgewater or someone reliable in the event a drafted qb isnít ready for week 1.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giants-NL-3 View Post
    Well thatís true, but then again, do you really need an OBJ for that, or would any solid speed wr that can take the top off do the trick?

    Again, Iím not saying I would definitely trade him, and I would ask for more than a 1st and 3rd rounder. I just wonder whether in some way obj wouldnít be under utilized if you understand what I mean. And if you donít utilize obj to the fullest, because Barkley is your main guy and you have 2 other good receivers in EE and Shep, and you get a great offer I would consider it.
    If OBJ were on the verge of FA or something itís worth discussing, but the guy is locked up and heís more than a speedy wr who requires a safety over the top; heís a league top 3 game changing wr. Having that along with what might be the best RB since Barry, is an incredible duo that you just canít break up. This is Emmett and Irvin but more dynamic.

    Gotta build the team around these two, and that involves making the oline the absolute top priority for every offseason as long as they are on the team.




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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyubi256 View Post
    In NFL when you give a guy "guaranteed" money.... That is something u must pay. If u trade or release him, u still gotta pay that. That's where dead money comes in.
    Kind of. If a player needs to be moved badly enough there are a number of ways to get out of the dead money situation.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    If OBJ were on the verge of FA or something itís worth discussing, but the guy is locked up and heís more than a speedy wr who requires a safety over the top; heís a league top 3 game changing wr. Having that along with what might be the best RB since Barry, is an incredible duo that you just canít break up. This is Emmett and Irvin but more dynamic.

    Gotta build the team around these two, and that involves making the oline the absolute top priority for every offseason as long as they are on the team.




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    Well itís hard to argue with how good they both are obviously. But I keep coming back to how efficient it is to have 2 great weapons you know. I mean I do believe the law of diminishing returns is very much applicable to the nfl as well. You can add weapons all you want, but its extra added value is becoming less and less. Which is why most offensive juggernauts are perfectly fine operating just 1 star weapon, while the rest still is good but not superstar (Rams, chiefs, cowboys) in combination with obviously a very good oline and fine to good QB.

    I mean the only teams I really know in recent nfl history that have 2 superstar weapons might be Steelers (bell and brown) and saints (Thomas and Kamara)? I might be forgetting some though.

    So thereís that plus the fact that weíd get a premier chance to upgrade our oline and QB significantly and quickly which are prerequisites in any offensive system anyways, even if youíd have Barkley and Beckham

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Seats View Post
    That would seem like a fair return -- of course if you can get more then great. As others have said I think it highly unlikely they trade him, for cap and any other reasons. But my feeling is -- setting aside his me me me antics -- the Giants need a lot of help and talent, starting with the QB position. Beckham isn't helping you win games even when he's on the field. If you can transpose that into a few top picks and talent then that is more beneficial going forward.
    Beckham doesnít help win games? Thatís your story?
    the New York Football Giants select.....

  9. #69
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    The rumor now is that the Cards could take Haskins and trade Rosen.

    If this is true, Depending on the trade price, and knowing that the Giants were high on Rosen (though they had no consensus on the best qb in the class), Iíd hope they are exploring the opportunity.

    Rosen learning under Eli for a season would be great.

    Though Iíd imagine with all his starts heíd want to go somewhere where heís a day 1 starter....but maybe the big NY market helps swing that.

    All pie in the sky stuff, but whatever

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    The rumor now is that the Cards could take Haskins and trade Rosen.

    If this is true, Depending on the trade price, and knowing that the Giants were high on Rosen (though they had no consensus on the best qb in the class), Iíd hope they are exploring the opportunity.

    Rosen learning under Eli for a season would be great.

    Though Iíd imagine with all his starts heíd want to go somewhere where heís a day 1 starter....but maybe the big NY market helps swing that.

    All pie in the sky stuff, but whatever
    Isn't that Schecter just suggesting the scenario though - based on what Kingsbury said about taking Murray 1 overall when he was still with Texas Tech?

    Let's say Kingsbury can actually convince the Cards to do that. They take Murray at 1 and then decide to trade Rosen - what are you giving up to get him?

    They'd want this year's 1 or a premier player in return. Would you be willing to part with that kind of package for Rosen?

    It's tempting but I'd sooner just draft Haskins at 6 if he's there, or just want DG to keep building up the D and trenches around the veterans he has.

    I wanted Rosen last year so I'm curious.

    Don't worry. He's got this.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    Isn't that Schecter just suggesting the scenario though - based on what Kingsbury said about taking Murray 1 overall when he was still with Texas Tech?

    Let's say Kingsbury can actually convince the Cards to do that. They take Murray at 1 and then decide to trade Rosen - what are you giving up to get him?

    They'd want this year's 1 or a premier player in return. Would you be willing to part with that kind of package for Rosen?

    It's tempting but I'd sooner just draft Haskins at 6 if he's there, or just want DG to keep building up the D and trenches around the veterans he has.

    I wanted Rosen last year so I'm curious.
    I'd like Rosen too if we can get him. But there's no way the asking price would be the 6th overall pick. He was picked lower than that, and his one year of playing in the league is far from convincing anybody that his stock should be higher now. At the most, I'd trade away this year's and next year's 2nd for him and a mid round pick. Or a 2nd plus someone like Vernon.

  12. #72
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    2019 Giants Off Season Thread

    I agree, and I do think a Rosen will be good.

    We have 11 picks in this draft - most since that great 2003 draft.

    Even if we take Haskins at 6 and an OT at 38, we have 9 more picks to add depth to the defense. Plus we have Beal coming in to be our corner.

    Iíd also trade Engram for a 2nd or 3rd round pick if we could get one. Heís not a classic TE and I think we are better off with guys that can block and catch mid range passes.

    Reese had zero strategy.


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    Last edited by GottaBelieve; 01-13-2019 at 12:06 PM.

    Don't worry. He's got this.

  13. #73
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    I don't want Rosen. Hell, I'd rather draft Will Grier in the second round if we have to.

    Rosen was considered a good prospect because of the hype machine he had going for him for 2+ years. For QB's especially, it's amazing what the hype machine can do when a QB prospect is on everyone's radar in the media and they hype that QB up for multiple years. Sam Darnold experienced the similar hype machine. Highly recruited out of High School and followed closely by the media for multiple years. In reality, both guys underwhelmed in college. And, while they both have NFL arms, it's not like their talent stands out from other NFL QB's. These days, everyone has an NFL arm. It's not that unique anymore. Between the two Darnold has a bit more unique talent with his ability to scramble a bit and throw off balance, but it's not so unique that it makes him stand out. His talent is slightly above average for NFL standards these days, while Rosen's is average at best.

    Haskins accomplished more in his one year as the starter at Ohio State than Rosen or Darnold ever came close to accomplishing. Haskins arm is just as strong if not stronger and his accuracy is better. Then you have a guy like Murray who is a unique, dual threat prospect.

    Think about it, Mahomes didn't get that same type of hype and he was considered a mid 1st round QB prospect. But everything about his skill set says he should have been a far better prospect than Rosen or Darnold ever were. Stronger arm, better accuracy, more mobile, more productive in college... everything should have told us that Mahomes was a better prospect. Then you have Watson who was considered a great college QB, but questionable in the pros, so he didn't have the hype machine working for him. Look how well he's done in the NFL though. He was accurate with a strong arm as well.

    Ignore the hype and just draft the best talent at the position. Haskins has an NFL arm, NFL size, and was super productive in college. Murray's skill set is off the charts and he was even more productive in college. I like both prospects better than the overhyped QB prospects of last year, minus Baker of course.

    Is it that surprising that the second best rookie QB last year was Lamar Jackson? It really shouldn't be. If everyone is going to discredit Murray due to his size and style of play, then let him drop to us at #6 and we'll reap the benefits. This kid is super talented. His speed and quickness is off the charts and his arm is super strong. Best thing though is that he is accurate and can throw with touch. He can make all the throws. I'll happily take him on the Giants. All he has to do to convince me is confirm that he's 100% playing football. That's all I care about with him. I'm sold on his talent.

    Think about this for a second. Kyler Murray was just as good and just as efficient as a passer compared to Baker Mayfield... in the same exact offense. That's not even factoring in his rushing ability. We are just talking about efficiency and production as a passer. Now add to that the fact that Kyler Murray ran for over 1,000 yards and have 12 rushing TD's. Overall he was better than Baker Mayfield in the same offense. Baker Mayfield just got taken #1 overall, transformed the Cleveland Browns into a relevant football team, and had one of the best QB rookie years ever. Sign me up for Kyler Murray.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 01-14-2019 at 08:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by El Patito View Post
    Wow, you just won't let this go will you? I'd be more than happy to provide the numbers again if you'd like. The fact is that Marmol in his best season, put up one of the greatest performances by a reliever in the history of baseball. Better than Rivera? Youre damn right. You can't deny this.
    Marmolololololol

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    I don't want Rosen. Hell, I'd rather draft Will Grier in the second round if we have to.

    Rosen was considered a good prospect because of the hype machine he had going for him for 2+ years. For QB's especially, it's amazing what the hype machine can do when a QB prospect is on everyone's radar in the media and they hype that QB up for multiple years. Sam Darnold experienced the similar hype machine. Highly recruited out of High School and followed closely by the media for multiple years. In reality, both guys underwhelmed in college. And, while they both have NFL arms, it's not like their talent stands out from other NFL QB's. These days, everyone has an NFL arm. It's not that unique anymore. Between the two Darnold has a bit more unique talent with his ability to scramble a bit and throw off balance, but it's not so unique that it makes him stand out. His talent is slightly above average for NFL standards these days, while Rosen's is average at best.

    Haskins accomplished more in his one year as the starter at Ohio State than Rosen or Darnold ever came close to accomplishing. Haskins arm is just as strong if not stronger and his accuracy is better. Then you have a guy like Murray who is a unique, dual threat prospect.

    Think about it, Mahomes didn't get that same type of hype and he was considered a mid 1st round QB prospect. But everything about his skill set says he should have been a far better prospect than Rosen or Darnold ever were. Stronger arm, better accuracy, more mobile, more productive in college... everything should have told us that Mahomes was a better prospect. Then you have Watson who was considered a great college QB, but questionable in the pros, so he didn't have the hype machine working for him. Look how well he's done in the NFL though. He was accurate with a strong arm as well.

    Ignore the hype and just draft the best talent at the position. Haskins has an NFL arm, NFL size, and was super productive in college. Murray's skill set is off the charts and he was even more productive in college. I like both prospects better than the overhyped QB prospects of last year, minus Baker of course.

    Is it that surprising that the second best rookie QB last year was Lamar Jackson? It really shouldn't be. If everyone is going to discredit Murray due to his size and style of play, then let him drop to us at #6 and we'll reap the benefits. This kid is super talented. His speed and quickness is off the charts and his arm is super strong. Best thing though is that he is accurate and can throw with touch. He can make all the throws. I'll happily take him on the Giants. All he has to do to convince me is confirm that he's 100% playing football. That's all I care about with him. I'm sold on his talent.

    Think about this for a second. Kyler Murray was just as good and just as efficient as a passer compared to Baker Mayfield... in the same exact offense. That's not even factoring in his rushing ability. We are just talking about efficiency and production as a passer. Now add to that the fact that Kyler Murray ran for over 1,000 yards and have 12 rushing TD's. Overall he was better than Baker Mayfield in the same offense. Baker Mayfield just got taken #1 overall, transformed the Cleveland Browns into a relevant football team, and had one of the best QB rookie years ever. Sign me up for Kyler Murray.
    Look, I really like Murray too. I really like Haskins too, for that matter. But you're wrong on a few things.

    First of all, Rosen was a solid prospect even disregarding the hype, which by the way died pretty soon in the pre-Draft process. Everyone questioned his frame, his injury concerns, his lack of mobility and the fact that he's more of a traditional pocket passer. He had some accuracy issues, but the fact remains that he showed enough arm to make just about any throw on any level, plus he always seemed as a smart guy, able to process things at NFL speed, which in theory, at least, is about the best thing you can have if you're going to be a pure pocket passer.

    Now, Mahomes was definitely hyped coming out. Issue was some questioned if he was just a product of the system (as they did with Mayfield, now Murray, and others before and since). Plus his footwork was off, and it was clear that he was going to be at least a one-year project. He happened to land in the perfect situation for him and it worked out best. But as for hype, I do think just about everyone agreed that his arm talent is off the charts, and if fully developed he's going to be an Aaron Rodgers type of talent.

    Watson was also definitely hyped throughout his college career, arguably on Darnold's level. He was supposed to be the #1 pick in the Draft, at least a year before he eventually declared. Problem is that by that time, everyone had enough time to scrutinize his play, and there were definitely flaws in his game that made people rightfully question how NFL ready he really was.

    Now, again, I really like Murray too (Haskins as well). His arm talent and arm strength is clearly better than Baker's was/is. But at the same time, he's not nearly as NFL ready as Baker was last year as a prospect. Don't get me wrong, I'd still draft him, but I do believe right now he's more of a project than anything.

  15. #75
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    My problem with Murray is his size. I just donít know if his height and frame support his best game in the pros. Iíd be worried about him getting crushed by NFL linebackers and lineman.


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    Don't worry. He's got this.

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