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View Poll Results: Number of wins for the 18'/19' Celtics

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  • 60+

    0 0%
  • 50+

    4 66.67%
  • 40+

    1 16.67%
  • Less than 40

    1 16.67%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #106
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    A little gem from 2012. Remember that most fans believed Rondo was a phenomenal leader ... until, of course, things got difficult.

    Yet his younger counterparts claim Rondo has been the glue to the locker room for years. Avery Bradley said it was Rondo, not the seasoned veterans, who checked on him regularly during his rookie season to make sure he was eating right, had the transportation he needed or had someone to talk to when he was feeling lonely or overwhelmed.

    Bradley was devastated when he sent to the NBA Developmental League in January 2011. "I felt like it was a punishment almost," he said.

    It was Rondo who stopped by Bradley's apartment and stressed the move was a chance for him to play and improve, and Rondo who made arrangements to watch Bradley play in Maine before a last-minute change to a Celtics practice scuttled the plans.


    Rajon Rondo, with Brandon Bass and Kevin Garnett, has worked at forging team chemistry, particularly this offseason. Brian Babineau/Getty Images
    "But it showed how much he cared about me," Bradley said. "How much he cares about everybody."

    Rondo's accountability has increased as he has matured, a development that did not go unnoticed by Pierce.

    "He took so many huge strides last year, he had to be the leader," Pierce said. "KG and I aren't going to be here much longer, so it's time for him to have a real voice, especially with Ray [Allen] gone.''

    Rondo organized offseason workouts in Los Angeles, oversaw the basketball drills, arranged for flag football games, even tried to coax the Celtics' owners into giving them the private plane to travel to the West Coast. League rules forbid that -- "we paid our own way for everything," Rondo said -- but the trip was his idea, hatched from a conversation he had with Pierce at a Barack Obama fundraiser.
    http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story...celtics-leader

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    So ... this toxic situation unfolding between Jimmy Butler (Kyrie's compadre) and Brett Brown/Philly. Is that just two sides "caring about winning" or Butler being selfish and wanting to win a certain way? Sixers have a near 70% WP since his arrival in November.

    How these players win is tantamount to winning itself. I don't think you understand the modern NBA.
    How is what Jimmy Butler did anywhere near what Kyrie did? Answer: itís not.

    This debate is similar to the one around Rondo back in 2011-2015. In real-time, fans were drunk off his talent, triple-doubles on national games and dazzling plays. In fact (LOL) the media championed his leadership/mentoring abilities when Stevens first arrived.

    Now sensible fans, in hindsight, almost universally agree Rondo that under duress he was terrible leader. Kyrie is a far superior player, but I predict this will be similar.

    To reiterate: I have zero issues with Kyrie as the #2 in a more natural supporting role. The center of this debate, however, is whether he's a sufficient #1, both on the court and in the locker room. So far you haven't made the case for the latter at all.

    I would ask you to paint the next 5 years of a Kyrie-led C's.
    Youíre the one claiming something that isnít true (Kyrie is a bad leader), therefor, you have to back it up. Onus probandi.

    All weíve heard is that Kyrie has been a good teammate here in his time and the players like him. Prove otherwise.

    Exactly - teammates follow Kyrie. Young, impressionable ones too.
    And? Tatum is well ahead of where anyone thought heíd be when we drafted him. Starting at the beginning of last year, Rozier has seen massive improvements. Smartís offense has improved as well.

    We're talking ball movement, the bread and butter of Brad's O system. Team assists IMO are a better indicator of ball movement than 1-2 players' assists.
    Kyrie moves the ball just fine. One or two games isnít an indication otherwise.

    So you labored for 45 seconds on BBR to conclude Kyrie is the C's best player. Wow, we have a Will Hunting here ladies and gents. Didn't know that.

    Just a side question: how come when NBA teams underperform blame goes to the best player (LeBron, Westbrook). But not here with Kyrie?
    Kyrie has seen blame. But a quick view at his numbers shows heís not the problem. Heís scoring very efficiently and without him our record would be significantly worse. He singlehandedly won us some games this year.

    That's what we call a straw man. Just dropping Kyrie doesn't get them closer to a championship. The question is how good will a Kyrie-lead C's be and how to best appropriate the asset at the deadline or over the summer.

    Even if you don't like the idea of building around Kyrie as this generation's KG, he's still a coveted asset that determines the future.
    Not a straw man at all. Youíve made it clear you donít like Kyrie and donít think that heís good for this team. You seem afraid to say it outright because I do believe you realize itís stupid, but youíre willing to argue until your face turns blue. You remind me very much of the LeBron haters, Tom Brady haters, etc. Sticking to things you donít like about a player and using them as ďevidenceĒ rather than actual stats/facts.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZH721 View Post
    How is what Jimmy Butler did anywhere near what Kyrie did? Answer: itís not.
    Irving is a ball-dominant PG who left CLE (in part) to create his own legacy. At 30K feet, you don't see the fundamental tension between Kyrie's thinking and the C's system?

    Stevens has been successful at managing egos, getting players to buy in and sacrifice their production to win games collectively. Would Irving be content with averaging 18 PPG, Brad getting the bulk of the credit and the C's winning 62 games? I have reservations. Irving is far closer to Butler than KG in thinking IMO.

    I can tell you how this is all going to play out (take out a pen and paper):

    1. The C's will continue to on a slow trajectory towards Finals contention
    2. Stevens and Irving will coexist and collaborate
    3. With Irving as the #1, the C's will continue to fall just short and frustration will set in (especially as KI's athleticism begins diminishing in years 3-5).
    4. Stevens will double down on team basketball; Irving, being the proven champion, will push for an increased role and want to become the hero. Will insist his championship pedigree is more useful than Brad's coaching.
    5. Irving will have the upper hand with teammates, since he has the hardware and security of the contract. Stevens will have to defer, the C's system slowly unravels.

    The final outcome TBD.

    Call it doomsday thinking or envisioning problems before they arise, that's how I see the next 3-5 years. From the excitement we saw last post-season, a major disappointment.

    Youíre the one claiming something that isnít true (Kyrie is a bad leader), therefor, you have to back it up. Onus probandi.

    All weíve heard is that Kyrie has been a good teammate here in his time and the players like him. Prove otherwise.
    We can't quite cite overt malcontent behavior like we could with Rondo (that's coming, give it time). But we can look at the overall team to date, Has Kyrie made other players around him better? I think the answer is overwhelmingly NO. Which is the hallmark of failed leadership. The C's are worse than the sum their total parts.

    Without oversimplifying (ignoring the complex fit of so many good players) it appears like one problem is KI's numbers/production have come of the expense of the team. What else could be behind those flare-ups with Stevens?

    And? Tatum is well ahead of where anyone thought heíd be when we drafted him. Starting at the beginning of last year, Rozier has seen massive improvements. Smartís offense has improved as well.
    That's pretty cute, going back to Tatum's expectations on draft night. Compared to last postseason he's been a big disappointment in year 2. Brown has taken two steps back (maybe due to injury). Rozier, well, he kinda his what he is. Robert Williams has arguably been their best young player on a per 48 basis.

    I'm not asking to shift the burden of proof onto why Irving is a good leader. I'm asking you, in the context of this team's future, and a major decision at the deadline, to paint a favorable 3-5 year window with Irving as THE bonafide leader. Meaning share what your expectations are and how things go.

    Not a straw man at all. Youíve made it clear you donít like Kyrie and donít think that heís good for this team. You seem afraid to say it outright because I do believe you realize itís stupid, but youíre willing to argue until your face turns blue. You remind me very much of the LeBron haters, Tom Brady haters, etc. Sticking to things you donít like about a player and using them as ďevidenceĒ rather than actual stats/facts.
    I'll say it outright: building around Kyrie as the #1 will prove to be a major mistake. If Danny acquires AD this off-season, KI slides to a #2 in a more specialized/supporting role, the calculus all changes. He'll be a good fit and the Celtics probably win a championship or two. But as #1 -- I don't think he's equipped for it.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZH721 View Post
    Not a straw man at all. Youíve made it clear you donít like Kyrie and donít think that heís good for this team. You seem afraid to say it outright because I do believe you realize itís stupid, but youíre willing to argue until your face turns blue. You remind me very much of the LeBron haters, Tom Brady haters, etc. Sticking to things you donít like about a player and using them as ďevidenceĒ rather than actual stats/facts.
    Also, consider the reports of Irving being "difficult", "moody", "disengaged" in Cleveland following his trade here. He hasn't had some stellar track record of leadership at really any point in his career before Boston.

    Not that this is that big a deal, but I found this pretty telling: https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-rum...en-new-jersey/

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    Irving is a ball-dominant PG who left CLE (in part) to create his own legacy. At 30K feet, you don't see the fundamental tension between Kyrie's thinking and the C's system?
    I think thatís your problem. Who Irving is and what heís done so far in his career, is far different than how youíre painting him. Youíre using guesses and hypotheticals to form a picture of him that simply isnít reality.

    Stevens has been successful at managing egos, getting players to buy in and sacrifice their production to win games collectively. Would Irving be content with averaging 18 PPG, Brad getting the bulk of the credit and the C's winning 62 games? I have reservations. Irving is far closer to Butler than KG in thinking IMO.

    I can tell you how this is all going to play out (take out a pen and paper):

    1. The C's will continue to on a slow trajectory towards Finals contention
    2. Stevens and Irving will coexist and collaborate
    3. With Irving as the #1, the C's will continue to fall just short and frustration will set in (especially as KI's athleticism begins diminishing in years 3-5).
    4. Stevens will double down on team basketball; Irving, being the proven champion, will push for an increased role and want to become the hero. Will insist his championship pedigree is more useful than Brad's coaching.
    5. Irving will have the upper hand with teammates, since he has the hardware and security of the contract. Stevens will have to defer, the C's system slowly unravels.

    The final outcome TBD.

    Call it doomsday thinking or envisioning problems before they arise, that's how I see the next 3-5 years. From the excitement we saw last post-season, a major disappointment.
    Yeah... no. It doesnít get much more pessimistic than this.

    We can't quite cite overt malcontent behavior like we could with Rondo (that's coming, give it time). But we can look at the overall team to date, Has Kyrie made other players around him better? I think the answer is overwhelmingly NO. Which is the hallmark of failed leadership. The C's are worse than the sum their total parts.
    Kyrie has absolutely made other players better. Obviously their scoring numbers are down due to Kyrie being such an elite scorer. Their individual games have seen massive improvements since Kyrie arrived. We used to have one player on the roster who could create his own shot (IT). Now, with the improvements seen since Kyrieís arrival of guys like Rozier, Brown, and Smart, we have plenty.

    Look at a guy like Klay Thompsonís advanced numbers year after year. Everyone considers him a top ~25 player, yet his advanced numbers would say no way. Why? Because with Curry and Durant, he has less opportunities on the offensive side. That doesnít mean he suddenly isnít a top 25 player, it means his role is different and heís adjusted. So, yes, Kyrie absolutely has made those around him better.

    Did LeBron make Kevin Love worse, or did he have a different role?
    Has Philly made Jimmy Butler worse, or does he have a different role?

    Iím asking you for just one post to take off your hater goggles and attempt to look at this clearly. I can tell by your posts that youíre a knowledgeable basketball fan, but itís also easy to see you donít like Kyrie. Your posts are very similar to those that never liked LeBron, Brady, etc for whatever reason.

    Without oversimplifying (ignoring the complex fit of so many good players) it appears like one problem is KI's numbers/production have come of the expense of the team. What else could be behind those flare-ups with Stevens?
    How has it come at the expense of the team?

    That's pretty cute, going back to Tatum's expectations on draft night. Compared to last postseason he's been a big disappointment in year 2. Brown has taken two steps back (maybe due to injury). Rozier, well, he kinda his what he is. Robert Williams has arguably been their best young player on a per 48 basis.
    Tatum played way better than anyone expected in year one. Sophomore slumps happen. He was fine with Kyrie last year. Why are you trying to use it as an excuse now?

    Heís actually been better overall outside of his 3-point shooting. Heís actually regressed back to near his college numbers, which means he probably overachieved in 3P% his rookie year.

    I'm not asking to shift the burden of proof onto why Irving is a good leader. I'm asking you, in the context of this team's future, and a major decision at the deadline, to paint a favorable 3-5 year window with Irving as THE bonafide leader. Meaning share what your expectations are and how things go.
    This team has the talent and youth to win the championship both this year and into the future. This year is unlikely due to GS still being a powerhouse, but most of the core will be together into the future.

    I'll say it outright: building around Kyrie as the #1 will prove to be a major mistake. If Danny acquires AD this off-season, KI slides to a #2 in a more specialized/supporting role, the calculus all changes. He'll be a good fit and the Celtics probably win a championship or two. But as #1 -- I don't think he's equipped for it.
    Trading for AD leaves this team pretty bare.
    Last edited by ZH721; 01-06-2019 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZH721 View Post
    I think thatís your problem. Who Irving is and what heís done so far in his career, is far different than how youíre painting him. Youíre using guesses and hypotheticals to form a picture of him that simply isnít reality.
    Irving can come across as distant, aloof. The word Ďmoodyí is mentioned often among those who worked with him in Cleveland. There were reports of him disengaging with teammates for days at a time, feeding perceptions of Irving as self-centered, difficult or perhaps just uncomfortable in LeBronís (James) orbit.

    I'm going off a history of 6 years in Cleveland (with and without LeBron), you're going off a honeymoon period here, 94 games, that includes a contract year. I would argue you're the one dealing in hypotheticals.

    Irving is playing nice to preserve his image; the C's don't want to lose a marquee asset to FA. None of these issues (ISO vs. system) will manifest until the 5-year max is signed and progress stalls.

    And think about it: Danny and the Celtics' 'authority' over players is their championship pedigree and history of winning. Both of which Kyrie has, although obviously much less success.

    - History of selfish and petulant behavior

    - Wants to win as The Guy (hence leaving a championship team in CLE, interest in playing on garbage NYK, BK to be centerpiece)

    - Early tensions between Stevens and Irving - most likely between system ball vs. ISO

    - Already showing signs of LBJ player-coach behavior ... which never goes well for the HC

    - Typically birds of a feather flock together: see close relationship with Jimmy Butler

    - Game 7 of ECF and he's caught on a NJ court shooting around. Sounds so trivial, but that was a huge game at the time. Affirms Jalen Rose's belief that he didn't want them to win.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEgY0GmpWRo

    Yeah... no. It doesnít get much more pessimistic than this.
    Based on my general experience watching sports, watching Kyrie, it seems a very predictable outcome. I have to believe Danny is far too seasoned and wise to not see it.


    Kyrie has absolutely made other players better. Obviously their scoring numbers are down due to Kyrie being such an elite scorer. Their individual games have seen massive improvements since Kyrie arrived. We used to have one player on the roster who could create his own shot (IT). Now, with the improvements seen since Kyrieís arrival of guys like Rozier, Brown, and Smart, we have plenty.

    Look at a guy like Klay Thompsonís advanced numbers year after year. Everyone considers him a top ~25 player, yet his advanced numbers would say no way. Why? Because with Curry and Durant, he has less opportunities on the offensive side. That doesnít mean he suddenly isnít a top 25 player, it means his role is different and heís adjusted. So, yes, Kyrie absolutely has made those around him better.

    Did LeBron make Kevin Love worse, or did he have a different role?
    Has Philly made Jimmy Butler worse, or does he have a different role?
    I'm not preoccupied with individual stats, mostly team wins and losses. The fact is we've added 2 All-Stars back to the rotation and it's arguably a worse team. Not diminishing the complexities of line-ups, but that typically does not happen on teams with a legit #1.

    People picking LAL for the WCF/NBAF -- that team was mostly trash before LeBron arrived. I wouldn't trade any of their young specs for C's including Ingram. James has elevated them in a more competitive conference, mainly through passing and ball-movement and two-wall ball. Before he got hurt they were en route to the 3 or 4 seed.

    Iím asking you for just one post to take off your hater goggles and attempt to look at this clearly. I can tell by your posts that youíre a knowledgeable basketball fan, but itís also easy to see you donít like Kyrie. Your posts are very similar to those that never liked LeBron, Brady, etc for whatever reason.
    Actually, re-wind the tape: I was vouching for LeBron to join C's last summer. Reason is because Kyrie and LeBron are virtually two sides of the same coin IMO. So the question is who makes the team better? I thought LBJ in Al's role @ 4 would be dynamic.

    Where I was wrong: LeBron seemed a little more humble last in 2017/18 plus, given his age and gap with Jordan, I thought he'd be more amenable to coaching to get the rings. But he's just as obnoxious as ever. A leopard doesn't change its stripes.

    How has it come at the expense of the team?
    Here's a good discussion from last night. Patrick Gilroy says it better than me (starts at 17:24):
    https://weei.radio.com/media/audio-c...l-win-season-1

    We'll be hearing more of this.


    Trading for AD leaves this team pretty bare.
    So for the record: you're signing KI and ~ standing pat for the next 5 years?

  7. #112
    Well they took care of the easy teams these last 3 games, Wednesday will be a good indicator of if they're finally finding their way

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    Irving can come across as distant, aloof. The word Ďmoodyí is mentioned often among those who worked with him in Cleveland. There were reports of him disengaging with teammates for days at a time, feeding perceptions of Irving as self-centered, difficult or perhaps just uncomfortable in LeBronís (James) orbit.

    I'm going off a history of 6 years in Cleveland (with and without LeBron), you're going off a honeymoon period here, 94 games, that includes a contract year. I would argue you're the one dealing in hypotheticals.
    LMFAOOOOOOO your posts have been nothing BUT hypotheticals.

    Irving is playing nice to preserve his image; the C's don't want to lose a marquee asset to FA. None of these issues (ISO vs. system) will manifest until the 5-year max is signed and progress stalls.

    And think about it: Danny and the Celtics' 'authority' over players is their championship pedigree and history of winning. Both of which Kyrie has, although obviously much less success.
    Heís ďplaying niceĒ...? How about thatís his actual personality and he cares and winning and wants to be in Boston for a long time? Youíre bat-**** crazy dude. Everything is pessimistic in relation to Irving.

    - History of selfish and petulant behavior
    False.

    - Wants to win as The Guy (hence leaving a championship team in CLE, interest in playing on garbage NYK, BK to be centerpiece)
    You mean doesnít want to live in LeBronís shadow. Who would? He knew LeBron was leaving too and didnít want to be stuck in Cleveland alone.

    - Early tensions between Stevens and Irving - most likely between system ball vs. ISO
    This happens between most star coaches and players, whether itís behind closed doors or not. There havenít been any big issues in relation to this. Stop trying to make it something that itís not.

    - Already showing signs of LBJ player-coach behavior ... which never goes well for the HC
    Once again... no... what the **** is even going on here.

    - Typically birds of a feather flock together: see close relationship with Jimmy Butler
    Jimmy Butler has nothing to do with this lol.

    - Game 7 of ECF and he's caught on a NJ court shooting around. Sounds so trivial, but that was a huge game at the time. Affirms Jalen Rose's belief that he didn't want them to win.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEgY0GmpWRo
    If you truthfully believe that, please never respond to me again. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing Iíve ever read on this site.

    Based on my general experience watching sports, watching Kyrie, it seems a very predictable outcome. I have to believe Danny is far too seasoned and wise to not see it.
    Yet he acquired Kyrie.

    I'm not preoccupied with individual stats, mostly team wins and losses. The fact is we've added 2 All-Stars back to the rotation and it's arguably a worse team. Not diminishing the complexities of line-ups, but that typically does not happen on teams with a legit #1.

    People picking LAL for the WCF/NBAF -- that team was mostly trash before LeBron arrived. I wouldn't trade any of their young specs for C's including Ingram. James has elevated them in a more competitive conference, mainly through passing and ball-movement and two-wall ball. Before he got hurt they were en route to the 3 or 4 seed.
    Hayward has not been an all-star this year, not even close. So, itís not adding two all-stars. There is a ton of talent that needs to mesh.

    Actually, re-wind the tape: I was vouching for LeBron to join C's last summer. Reason is because Kyrie and LeBron are virtually two sides of the same coin IMO. So the question is who makes the team better? I thought LBJ in Al's role @ 4 would be dynamic.

    Where I was wrong: LeBron seemed a little more humble last in 2017/18 plus, given his age and gap with Jordan, I thought he'd be more amenable to coaching to get the rings. But he's just as obnoxious as ever. A leopard doesn't change its stripes.
    Iím not saying you hate LeBron. Iím saying your hate towards Kyrie is like those that hate LeBron/Brady for reasons that make no sense. They hate the player and then make up dumb reasons as to why after that. You fit the bill perfectly.

    Here's a good discussion from last night. Patrick Gilroy says it better than me (starts at 17:24):
    https://weei.radio.com/media/audio-c...l-win-season-1

    We'll be hearing more of this.
    Doesnít even make sense lol. His numbers havenít hurt the team. Without him this team wouldíve lost several games that they won.

    Youíre saying Kyrieís numbers/production have made the team worse? Thatís just stupid.

    A quote from that link, ďwhen he goes 1 on 3 or 1 on 4 and does that as the Celtics primary option.Ē Kyrie doesnít do that lol. Absolute garbage.

    So for the record: you're signing KI and ~ standing pat for the next 5 years?
    Sign Kyrie, yes. Who said stand pat?

    Trading for AD means goodbye to basically everyone except Kyrie and Hayward.

  9. #114
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    You can have the last word. Itís not worth it. Your hate for Kyrie is at such a high level that you canít think or argue clearly. Too bad. Iíll just let his elite stats and play speak for itself.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZH721 View Post
    You can have the last word. Itís not worth it. Your hate for Kyrie is at such a high level that you canít think or argue clearly. Too bad. Iíll just let his elite stats and play speak for itself.
    First off, thanks for the good debate and lengthy responses. Unfortunately we're at a standstill because time, and time only, will solve the argument. Much like the Rondo one from a few years ago that most C's fans just didn't (and could't) comprehend at the time

    Kyrie is an exceptional talent for sure. I can see both sides. But I predict Irving as #1 will leave you, and other C's fans, very disappointed long-term. Unless they acquire AD or it becomes Tatum's team.

    We shall see.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    A little gem from 2012. Remember that most fans believed Rondo was a phenomenal leader ... until, of course, things got difficult.



    http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story...celtics-leader
    He sucked as I documented so clearly and so often going back into 2011. He proved me right.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    First off, thanks for the good debate and lengthy responses. Unfortunately we're at a standstill because time, and time only, will solve the argument. Much like the Rondo one from a few years ago that most C's fans just didn't (and could't) comprehend at the time

    Kyrie is an exceptional talent for sure. I can see both sides. But I predict Irving as #1 will leave you, and other C's fans, very disappointed long-term. Unless they acquire AD or it becomes Tatum's team.

    We shall see.
    KI is the best guard the C's have had going back to 1965 with the possible exception of Sm Jones (in his time of course). DJ, Chaney and Rondo were better on D.

    He's not a perfect fit, but this team doesn't have another guy that can get THAT basket. So he must take a fairly high volume of shots - good for him and us his percentages are very good.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    He sucked as I documented so clearly and so often going back into 2011. He proved me right.
    Oh boy. Rondo didnít suck lol. He had some very good years here in Boston.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    KI is the best guard the C's have had going back to 1965 with the possible exception of Sm Jones (in his time of course). DJ, Chaney and Rondo were better on D.

    He's not a perfect fit, but this team doesn't have another guy that can get THAT basket. So he must take a fairly high volume of shots - good for him and us his percentages are very good.
    Last night showed how effective team basketball can be: 32 total assists, great ball movement. Will Kyrie be satisfied with winning this way - or does he need credit? 25+ points. I have serious reservations.

    Side note, I can't wait to see Williams' development.

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    Williams is so fun to watch. Hopefully more PT coming.

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