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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    And to that point, I would argue it's easier to teach things like dropping into coverage better, especially for a guy whos a great athlete like Bush than it is to really hone in on the mental aspect, especially processing. It's really hard to teach mental processing and improve processing speed.

    Also, for what it's worth, bush looked ohe imebal in positional coverage drills at his pro day from reports. I saw a Twitter video of him doing the back pedal and turn and run drill and he legit looked like a safety. I think he's teachable in that aspect of the game for sure. The mental processing stuff worries me with white. That athleticism isnt going to last forever, so you need to rely on more than that. And it feels like that's really whites calling card.
    I wouldn't be upset if they took Bush by any stretch of the imagination, I'm probably a bit more biased because I've seen more footage on White as well. I'm going to watch some clips on both sometime this week. I may have a change of heart on taking him at 12. Both great prospects, both would solidify ILB. Both top 15-20 guys in my view. It really boils down to scheme fit for us and how Pettine would use them. One advantage in the film I've seen from Bush is he would appear more versatile.

  2. #242
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    For Bush, I wonder if we can trade back with Houston? They hold pick 23 54 and 55. Which would give us 23 30 44 54 and 76. And im sure Houston would like to make a jump up if Jonah Williams is there.

    Wed be in a pretty amazing with those picks. That could give you Bush, Wilkins, Irv Smith, Parris Cambell/Deebo, Edwards?

    Not only does that set you up nice for 2019. But Gute has a lot of options when its decision time for Martinez and Daniels. Cutting Graham next offseason becomes a no brainer because you got Smith, and that clears out 8 mil. Then Edwards has a development year to possibly replace Bulaga in 2020.

    Just one way to go about it.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdh09e44 View Post
    For Bush, I wonder if we can trade back with Houston? They hold pick 23 54 and 55. Which would give us 23 30 44 54 and 76. And im sure Houston would like to make a jump up if Jonah Williams is there.

    Wed be in a pretty amazing with those picks. That could give you Bush, Wilkins, Irv Smith, Parris Cambell/Deebo, Edwards?

    Not only does that set you up nice for 2019. But Gute has a lot of options when its decision time for Martinez and Daniels. Cutting Graham next offseason becomes a no brainer because you got Smith, and that clears out 8 mil. Then Edwards has a development year to possibly replace Bulaga in 2020.

    Just one way to go about it.
    Though I don't grade Bush at a 12 slot value I'm also not sure us training back in hopes landing Bush would work. In any draft there is always a few surprises, but when you move down no guarantee you still get your guy. Some have him as high as the top 10 in their mocks which are mocks not what teams will do, but it is entirely possible. Rarely do you have this many interesing ILB's so a team like the Dolphins, Falcolns, Redskins, Vikings, Steelers, Seahawks, and Ravens could all realistically make room for him. Though I don't know if I value him at 12 if they want Bush trading back may not be an otions. However, on that note even if we are not landing Bush I have no issue moving down i this draft. Realistically moving down you can still land a TE there, maybe look for a DL or a WR as well. Maybe even look at a safety like Gardner-Johnson or Abrahams. I really like AJ Brown and Marquise Brown in this draft.

  4. #244
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    For what it's worth, we'd be a little under value doing that trade. I know the trade value charts aren't as important as they used to be, but we could maybe get a little more out of them, especially if they love the guy they are moving up to get. You almost always have to overpay to move up into the top half of the draft.

  5. #245
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    Have a few questions on some opinions these are some scenarios which I would think could play out.

    1. Detroit takes Hockenson at 9, do we then take Fant at 12, the earlier Hockenson if off the board in my view the quicker the TE's will go. If Hock is gone at 9, Fant does not make it to 30. I don't think Smith makes it to 30?

    2. Marquis Brown or AJ Brown. Both big time receivers, which I would look at as early as pick 30. M. Brown looks more like a slot impact guy to fill the spot of Cobb, A. Brown looks like a surehanded bigger receiver who may not slide into the slot, but could very well be the best WR in this draft?

    3. Tackle early or tackle mid to late. I think adding Turner takes us out of the running for some of the big name guys, but opens the door for us to wait off a moment to develop unless there is a player they can't refuse. For example they pull the trigger if Jawaan Taylor is there at 12?

    4. White and Bush gone in the top 10 do you take Mack Wilson if he is there at 30?

    5. Do you look at a top tier safety IE Adderly, Johnson, or Abrams or wait off to see if a Thornhill type falls to you in the 3rd? Would find it interesting to see Adderly picked up at 30 #legacy.

  6. #246
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    I'm not a fan of abram at safety but I like adderly and Johnson. Maybe it's Josh Jones that scares me off but I really want my safeties to have some ball skills. I'm good with the other two. Alot of folks are down on him, but I like Thompson in the 2nd as well. He struggled to end the year but has all the skills required to be a good safety. He may not be an elite plug and play option, but he may be a guy who can takeover mid-season or next season and be the best of this crop of safeties.

    AJ Brown actually played a ton of slot this year. He is a different type of player than Hollywood brown, but they are both slot guys. I like both, as well as deebo Samuel in the 2nd. To me AJ Brown and Samuel are sort of more athletic Cobb types. Hollywood brown is more of a DeSean Jackson or Percy Harvin type. But I'm not convinced we go wr early. If we do, this is an instance where I would just lock Ted Thompson in a room in his new advisor role and just tell him to pick his favorite wr in the 2nd. Dude has a history of crushing 2nd round pick WRs.

    I don't love fant at 12. He's just a little too one dimensional. Perhaps I'm not crediting his potential as a blocker, but I'd want an all around guy if we are drafting that high. Smith didnt crush the combine, so I find it hard to believe hell be gone by 30. I'd hold out and hope he falls all the way to the 2nd as well.

    And I'm not 100% sold on needing an ilb. If we take a safety, I'd actually consider moving Jones to safety. But I think Bush and white are potential studs so that's why I'd consider them. Not sure Wilson is quite there. I wouldnt hate the pick, but I'm not so locked in on ilb that I'd panic and take Wilson just because Bush and white are gone.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 03-21-2019 at 12:56 PM.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I'm not a fan of abram at safety but I like adderly and Johnson. Maybe it's Josh Jones that scares me off but I really want my safeties to have some ball skills. I'm good with the other two. Alot of folks are down on him, but I like Thompson in the 2nd as well. He struggled to end the year but has all the skills required to be a good safety. He may not be an elite plug and play option, but he may be a guy who can takeover mid-season or next season and be the best of this crop of safeties.

    AJ Brown actually played a ton of slot this year. He is a different type of player than Hollywood brown, but they are both slot guys. I like both, as well as deebo Samuel in the 2nd. To me AJ Brown and Samuel are sort of more athletic Cobb types. Hollywood brown is more of a DeSean Jackson or Percy Harvin type. But I'm not convinced we go wr early. If we do, this is an instance where I would just lock Ted Thompson in a room in his new advisor role and just tell him to pick his favorite wr in the 2nd. Dude has a history of crushing 2nd round pick WRs.

    I don't love fant at 12. He's just a little too one dimensional. Perhaps I'm not crediting his potential as a blocker, but I'd want an all around guy if we are drafting that high. Smith didnt crush the combine, so I find it hard to believe hell be gone by 30. I'd hold out and hope he falls all the way to the 2nd as well.

    And I'm not 100% sold on needing an ilb. If we take a safety, I'd actually consider moving Jones to safety. But I think Bush and white are potential studs so that's why I'd consider them. Not sure Wilson is quite there. I wouldnt hate the pick, but I'm not so locked in on ilb that I'd panic and take Wilson just because Bush and white are gone.
    Not a big Abram fan either. I think Johnson has the best ball skills of the group, but Adderly being a bit raw, might have the highest ceiling of the group. I'm actually seeing some with Thompson sliding into the 3rd, which if that's the case I am 100% in favor of adding him. I think some are a bit over zealous on that front, but my knock on Thompson is that he is not a 1st round grade for me. I think pushing him to the 3rd is a bit of an insult, he still ranks in my top 45. Thompson lacks focus, that's his big knock, he sometimes lacks awareness, and discipline. He has pro-bowl potential, but will need to be groomed by the right staff. In the sense he has great ball-skills, but lacks focus he comes with a similar look as Ha Ha Clinton-Dix. He's farm from a clone, but in this aspect they are similar. Like Ha Ha I think Thompson is his own worst enemy, both guys have the potential to be phenomenal football players. He makes sense for us with the addition of Amos. I like Johnson and Adderly a lot more.

    I would love to see a bigger slot guy. This offense is big and with high potential. I would love to see a guy like AJ Brown here because it would give us a similar offensive aresenal as we had back in the early part of Rodgers career. Giving him big atheltic targets will help. I really like AJ Brown if he is at 30. However, see the upside in both guys. I agree TT had a great eye for receivers.

    I think Fant gets a bad rap as a blocker which was not warranted, I think Hock is a more polished TE, but Fant is not where near a liability. Fant may never be a at the line grinder, but has much more success as a space blocker on the second level or stepping down on seal blocks from the slot. This is what the system we have is supposed to use the TE for. Fant in my view may be the best TE for the Packers. He is literally a giant target with the athleticism of a receiver. I know a lot of people love Hockenson, but when I watch his tape I see a TE who fits every scheme, when I see Fant I see a guy who could be elite in this scheme. I'm warming up on the verge of seeing flames on Fant at 12. Hock is well rounded, Fant is a situational blocker who will offensively outproduce Hockenson who lacks downfield speed. I love both of these TE's on film. Fant I would say is a plus run blocker and servicecable at the line. His blocking was signficantly better this season. I the one thing we have to see is that Fant is sensation in space and thats what this scheme needs. Fant is a natural receiver. I have nothing bad to say bout Hockenson, but in my evaluation both are neck and neck on my big board.

    I agree I don't think ILB is a huger need, but I think we need to add depth to the spot, this can be done in the mid-late rounds. They have found some solid band-aid players or serviceable talents in the past in those rounds. I'm not big on Wilson either. I think after the Devin's there is not a big gap in talent at ILB. I think they can wait and add a guy like TJ Edwards who could get the job don't but will never be great.

    Some other side notes. I really like Amani Hooker a guy who I think would have hade a higher draft stock if he stay one more year is a raw ball hawk who likely falls to round 3. But he's disciplined, coachable and well controled, shows good foot speed. He looked terrific in shallow zones and as a deep half defender. Also, if we miss out on the Iowa duo at TE I really like the guy from Utah St. can't think of his name Raymond I think.
    Last edited by IRNMN; 03-21-2019 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRNMN View Post
    Have a few questions on some opinions these are some scenarios which I would think could play out.

    1. Detroit takes Hockenson at 9, do we then take Fant at 12, the earlier Hockenson if off the board in my view the quicker the TE's will go. If Hock is gone at 9, Fant does not make it to 30. I don't think Smith makes it to 30?

    2. Marquis Brown or AJ Brown. Both big time receivers, which I would look at as early as pick 30. M. Brown looks more like a slot impact guy to fill the spot of Cobb, A. Brown looks like a surehanded bigger receiver who may not slide into the slot, but could very well be the best WR in this draft?

    3. Tackle early or tackle mid to late. I think adding Turner takes us out of the running for some of the big name guys, but opens the door for us to wait off a moment to develop unless there is a player they can't refuse. For example they pull the trigger if Jawaan Taylor is there at 12?

    4. White and Bush gone in the top 10 do you take Mack Wilson if he is there at 30?

    5. Do you look at a top tier safety IE Adderly, Johnson, or Abrams or wait off to see if a Thornhill type falls to you in the 3rd? Would find it interesting to see Adderly picked up at 30 #legacy.
    I have been kind of scared of what i read on Thornhill, they are saying his football IQ is very limited.

    Abrams is similar to Josh Jones but maybe more refined.

    a mid round guy that I like is Darnell Savage out of Maryland.

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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRNMN View Post
    Not a big Abram fan either. I think Johnson has the best ball skills of the group, but Adderly being a bit raw, might have the highest ceiling of the group. I'm actually seeing some with Thompson sliding into the 3rd, which if that's the case I am 100% in favor of adding him. I think some are a bit over zealous on that front, but my knock on Thompson is that he is not a 1st round grade for me. I think pushing him to the 3rd is a bit of an insult, he still ranks in my top 45. Thompson lacks focus, that's his big knock, he sometimes lacks awareness, and discipline. He has pro-bowl potential, but will need to be groomed by the right staff. In the sense he has great ball-skills, but lacks focus he comes with a similar look as Ha Ha Clinton-Dix. He's farm from a clone, but in this aspect they are similar. Like Ha Ha I think Thompson is his own worst enemy, both guys have the potential to be phenomenal football players. He makes sense for us with the addition of Amos. I like Johnson and Adderly a lot more.

    I would love to see a bigger slot guy. This offense is big and with high potential. I would love to see a guy like AJ Brown here because it would give us a similar offensive aresenal as we had back in the early part of Rodgers career. Giving him big atheltic targets will help. I really like AJ Brown if he is at 30. However, see the upside in both guys. I agree TT had a great eye for receivers.

    I think Fant gets a bad rap as a blocker which was not warranted, I think Hock is a more polished TE, but Fant is not where near a liability. Fant may never be a at the line grinder, but has much more success as a space blocker on the second level or stepping down on seal blocks from the slot. This is what the system we have is supposed to use the TE for. Fant in my view may be the best TE for the Packers. He is literally a giant target with the athleticism of a receiver. I know a lot of people love Hockenson, but when I watch his tape I see a TE who fits every scheme, when I see Fant I see a guy who could be elite in this scheme. I'm warming up on the verge of seeing flames on Fant at 12. Hock is well rounded, Fant is a situational blocker who will offensively outproduce Hockenson who lacks downfield speed. I love both of these TE's on film. Fant I would say is a plus run blocker and servicecable at the line. His blocking was signficantly better this season. I the one thing we have to see is that Fant is sensation in space and thats what this scheme needs. Fant is a natural receiver. I have nothing bad to say bout Hockenson, but in my evaluation both are neck and neck on my big board.

    I agree I don't think ILB is a huger need, but I think we need to add depth to the spot, this can be done in the mid-late rounds. They have found some solid band-aid players or serviceable talents in the past in those rounds. I'm not big on Wilson either. I think after the Devin's there is not a big gap in talent at ILB. I think they can wait and add a guy like TJ Edwards who could get the job don't but will never be great.

    Some other side notes. I really like Amani Hooker a guy who I think would have hade a higher draft stock if he stay one more year is a raw ball hawk who likely falls to round 3. But he's disciplined, coachable and well controled, shows good foot speed. He looked terrific in shallow zones and as a deep half defender. Also, if we miss out on the Iowa duo at TE I really like the guy from Utah St. can't think of his name Raymond I think.
    With Mccarthy, I would have agreed on tight end. He wasn't a big tight end user but the two he got the most out of, Finley and cook, were both move guys. Mccarthy's offense was also built around the pass game. And what I mean by that is outside of our few power formations, our offense was designed for every play to sort of look like a pass with the threat to run.

    If lafluer is from the Shanahan and mcvay school of offense, he will build the offense around the run game. And again, that doesn't mean we'll run it a bunch more per se, but the offense is built to look more like running concepts that can turn into passes and not vice versa. So to me, to effectively give that vibe, you need a tight end who's a legit threat to block. That's why I think hock is a better fit. I really think all in all between the two of them hock is probably a better player but fant would be the guy you want in a fantasy league (depends on situation of course, but if you put them on similar teams, that would be my take.)

    I agree on hooker. That mock draft machine I've been using lately has him available in the 4th quite often and thats an automatic pick for me. Scouting based on helmet is always dangerous, but he reminds me so much of basically all the Iowa DBs lately. Good football player with good ball skills who isn't a premier athlete. You can find spots for those types of guys. I think hooker can be a starter at safety, but even if he isn't, he can likely be a good situational match up peice like how we used to use Hyde.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackerBum9786 View Post
    I have been kind of scared of what i read on Thornhill, they are saying his football IQ is very limited.

    Abrams is similar to Josh Jones but maybe more refined.

    a mid round guy that I like is Darnell Savage out of Maryland.

    I have the opposite on Thornhill shows a very intelligent player. Watching the tape on him he looks like a smart player who has great instincts. Thornhill for me may never be the most physical or athletic guy, but if you I don't think I would every have him play centerfield, but he would be a nice safe guy who can play smart in coverage. I do like Savage as well. He would be a great pick is they like what they have in Jones or Tramon opposite of Amos and can groom Savage. I don't have any issues with Savage for me he would initially be a package guy who could be a big contributor on ST, great potential, with sound tackling. Both guys have excellent ball skills in my view. Either of these two your going to need a little work with, but this is the case with most of the safeties in this draft as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    With Mccarthy, I would have agreed on tight end. He wasn't a big tight end user but the two he got the most out of, Finley and cook, were both move guys. Mccarthy's offense was also built around the pass game. And what I mean by that is outside of our few power formations, our offense was designed for every play to sort of look like a pass with the threat to run.

    If lafluer is from the Shanahan and mcvay school of offense, he will build the offense around the run game. And again, that doesn't mean we'll run it a bunch more per se, but the offense is built to look more like running concepts that can turn into passes and not vice versa. So to me, to effectively give that vibe, you need a tight end who's a legit threat to block. That's why I think hock is a better fit. I really think all in all between the two of them hock is probably a better player but fant would be the guy you want in a fantasy league (depends on situation of course, but if you put them on similar teams, that would be my take.)

    I agree on hooker. That mock draft machine I've been using lately has him available in the 4th quite often and thats an automatic pick for me. Scouting based on helmet is always dangerous, but he reminds me so much of basically all the Iowa DBs lately. Good football player with good ball skills who isn't a premier athlete. You can find spots for those types of guys. I think hooker can be a starter at safety, but even if he isn't, he can likely be a good situational match up peice like how we used to use Hyde.
    I agree Hock is perhaps the best TE here and again would love him on this team. I'm personally not down on Fant's blocking skills, I think Hock is just such a polished blocker and excels in all parts. I think Fant is a fit and an excelent blocker off the line. I don't know much they will value the edge, Fant's not a hand in the dirt blocker, but success as a space blocker on the second level or stepping down on seal blocks from the slot both of these are huge in the run game. I think if they are up to it you literally have two stellar TE mentors for him as well Lewis on blocking, Graham on the offensive game. He's a smart player who uses good technique, and is coachable. I would argue that Fant's blocking weakness is in the pass protection, but with his skill I don't see a ton of situations where he is going to fall back as a blocker. The reason I like Fant is this scheme is because they need not only initial line blockers, but also guys who create seals and are athletic enough to make the next level block, that's Fant. Then again I think both have a pro-bowl level potential, both look to have long careers. I think one of my questions was Fant's strength, but dude showed up to the combine over 15 lbs bigger and looked like an atheletic freak. The guy is the size of a bus with better speed than half our receivers. Won't complain if either land here. We can agree to disagree, but I don't think too many people will complain if either one of these guys are in Green and Gold next season.

    I would agree with that assessment, Iowa has a look when it comes to DB's, it may not b a pro-bowler, but you can always look to their guys as a solid pick. If he's there in the 4th that's a steal in my book. Hyde was tremendous because of his versatility. Pettine would easily find a spot for him.

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