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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Adding stuff about how planes canít be broken to assert that no natural explanation is possible so therefore it must be supernatural is still a God of the Gaps. It ceases being a God of the Gaps only when you can cite specific evidence to support your specific hypothesis or theory.

    Citing a lack of evidence for a natural explanation to determine an unspecified supernatural conclusion is the very definition of God of the Gaps.

    And youíve proven nothing.
    No friend, assuming that these planes CAN be broken is God of the gaps. The onus is on you. My stance is already backed up. Look at your phone. Did it pop out of nothingness, or was it something else modified into a phone? Your car. A tree. A bird. A grass. A rock. A star. Literally, EVERYTHING. You get it? LITETALLY. EVERYTHING. BACKS UP MY STANCE.

    Literally every object, every event, every situation says I'm right, while simultaneously NOT ONE single thing says I'm wrong. This is way past theory, or even law. Is there anything past law? If there is, that's the category this sits in. The amount of evidence that backs me up is more than the amount of evidence that backs up ALL the theories you believe in. Amd at the same time, the amount of evidence that says I'm wrong is less than or on par with the strongest law you accept.

    Again, it's not a lack of evidence that drove me to this conclusion, it is positive evidence and positive assertions that I am making here.

    You're not an agnostic, you're an atheist, that is why you are being dense, because it threatens your (lack of) belief system. But like I said, this thing is about pursuing truth, regardless of who preconceived notions it falls in line with or flies in the face of.

    Think of science with a lower case s, not capital, you will understand what I'm saying much better.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #62
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    If you truly believe your stance is correct and mine is wrong, then go ahead and imagine up any possibility and put it forth.

    I am SO confident in my words that my challenge isn't to show me otherwise, that's not necessary, my challenge is that you can't even DREAM UP a possibility.

    Because I'm dealing in absolutes here. I don't call it bulletproof cuz it sounds good, I call it bulletproof cuz this thing legitimately is.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #63
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    no idea what you mean by upper or lower case science.

    You, my friend, are the one claiming proof, Your evidence: Planes can't be broken.

    That's not proof That's a reason why you believe what you believe.

    Understand the difference?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    If you truly believe your stance is correct and mine is wrong, then go ahead and imagine up any possibility and put it forth.

    I am SO confident in my words that my challenge isn't to show me otherwise, that's not necessary, my challenge is that you can't even DREAM UP a possibility.

    Because I'm dealing in absolutes here. I don't call it bulletproof cuz it sounds good, I call it bulletproof cuz this thing legitimately is.
    Not my job to imagine anything. Not my job to disprove your claim. It's your job to prove it.

    Understand?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    This. God doesnít get special privileges because heís popular.
    Sure he does. like Aliens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I would suggest the only extraordinary claim one can make that you think wouldn't default to disbelief is God.

    Hey Flips, i invented a car that runs on tap water. Do you believe me?

    Hey Flips, I can fly without the help of any kind of device. Do you believe me?

    Hey Flips, Iíve got $1 billion in my savings account. Do you believe me?

    Hey Flips: Iíve got a flying goat tied up in my backyard so he canít fly away.....

    Should I keep going? Do I need to?
    yes please
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    yes please
    Hey Ewing: Iíve invented a perpetual motion machine that will be worth a billion dollars in 5 years. World be glad to sell you a 10 percent share for $1,000. Any interest in investing?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 10-22-2018 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    You're not an agnostic, you're an atheist.
    Iím actually both. Wow, imagine someone who doesnít believe in God but doesnít claim to know for sure that he doesnít exist Oooh! Mind blown!

    Lol seriously. And the reason Iím an agnostic is to leave the door open for arguments like yours.

    Yes, youíve made an argument. But you still havenít proven your argument.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    God of the gaps is not proof. What I laid out is.
    Serious question because I really think I missed something important in your dialogue with FoC: where is the proof that you laid out? You donít have to repeat it all here unless you want to. But, like, which post is it in?
    Last edited by Crovash; 10-22-2018 at 04:55 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Serious question because I really think I missed something important in your dialogue with FoC: where is the proof that you laid out? You donít have to repeat it all here unless you want to. But, like, which post is it in?
    His ďproofĒ (correct me if Iím wrong Nasty) is that, because the onset of the universe had to have broken the time and space planes, the universe had to have been created by a supernatural being since that is the only way the time and space planes could have been broken.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Not my job to imagine anything. Not my job to disprove your claim. It's your job to prove it.

    Understand?
    Yea, I can prove it. Or give you evidence. When exactly evidence turns into proof, I don't know, but here's the evidence...

    Close your eyes and wave your hand around, the first thing you touch let's get into its details. Where did it come from? Was it nothing and it just became something? Or was it something else which is now this other something.

    Let's say you touched your crusty *** cereal bowl from last night. Where did it come from? Just keep following it back and ring the alarms once you get to a point where you can say it came from nothing. I will bet my life you won't be able to. Because again, I am proposing an ABSOLUTE barrier here.

    Literally anything you touch, see, smell, think, hear...it ALL backs my stance up.

    The evidence is so overwhelming, there is not a single established theory in existence with more evidence backing it up than what I am saying here. Yet you tell me that's not proof, OK, lol.

    It can be proven by literally anything you choose. Hell, go to outer space, let's get crazy, apply it to other planets and galaxies, it still holds.

    Capital s science is when you take it as gospel, where you let man-made definitions override your God given experience. People do it a lot with religion too, but I noticed people start to do it with science lately too.

    Science is merely a tool for us to understand our experience, it is not the entirety of our experience. So long as you stick with the latter and ignore the former, I'm seeing capital s science being preached like a gospel
    Last edited by nastynice; 10-22-2018 at 09:38 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Serious question because I really think I missed something important in your dialogue with FoC: where is the proof that you laid out? You donít have to repeat it all here unless you want to. But, like, which post is it in?
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    His ďproofĒ (correct me if Iím wrong Nasty) is that, because the onset of the universe had to have broken the time and space planes, the universe had to have been created by a supernatural being since that is the only way the time and space planes could have been broken.
    Pretty much..

    It's like this. I don't know how exactly the universe came about. I DO KNOW it wasn't via natural means, for reasons already stated.
    Last edited by nastynice; 10-22-2018 at 09:40 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Pretty much..

    It's like this. I don't know how exactly the universe came about. I DO KNOW it wasn't via natural means, for reasons already stated.
    Ok. If you donít know how the universe came about you cannot Rule out a natural means, no matter how impossible it may seem. You only prove it wasnít natural when you demonstrate a supernatural cause and replicate it repeatedly.

    Short of that youíre left with nothing but then strong convictions which you articulate above. And again, Iím not saying youíre wrong. Heck, you may even be right. But you havenít demonstrated it yet. Proof of the supernatural doesnít come as easy as pointing to the beginning of time and space and saying it all had to start before those planes.

    To be fair Iím not even sure it is possible to prove the supernatural since, assuming itís even a thing it allegedly operates outside our measurable world, doesnít it?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Ok. If you donít know how the universe came about you cannot Rule out a natural means, no matter how impossible it may seem. You only prove it wasnít natural when you demonstrate a supernatural cause and replicate it repeatedly.

    Short of that youíre left with nothing but then strong convictions which you articulate above. And again, Iím not saying youíre wrong. Heck, you may even be right. But you havenít demonstrated it yet. Proof of the supernatural doesnít come as easy as pointing to the beginning of time and space and saying it all had to start before those planes.

    To be fair Iím not even sure it is possible to prove the supernatural since, assuming itís even a thing it allegedly operates outside our measurable world, doesnít it?
    I see it like this. I don't know who was behind 9 eleven. But I DO KNOW my boy Kenny was not. That fool was with me when that stuff went down.

    Same way, nature as we know it cannot possibly be self creating because natural law precludes it from being so. So I say I KNOW that much at least.

    Now maybe in theory this is not proof, or my argument is a negative and so cannot be positively demonstrated, but in practice I believe my stance to be 100% sound. At least the way MY brain decipher it it absolutely is, however I do recognize that not everyone processes it the same way.

    And yes, your last paragraph seems spot on, and that is why this stuff is very murky, and also why I believe a purely 100% physical evidence stance does not do the topic justice.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I see it like this. I don't know who was behind 9 eleven. But I DO KNOW my boy Kenny was not. That fool was with me when that stuff went down.

    Same way, nature as we know it cannot possibly be self creating because natural law precludes it from being so. So I say I KNOW that much at least.

    Now maybe in theory this is not proof, or my argument is a negative and so cannot be positively demonstrated, but in practice I believe my stance to be 100% sound. At least the way MY brain decipher it it absolutely is, however I do recognize that not everyone processes it the same way.

    And yes, your last paragraph seems spot on, and that is why this stuff is very murky, and also why I believe a purely 100% physical evidence stance does not do the topic justice.
    Your analogy assumes you can account for everything about the natural world just like you can account for the whereabouts of Kenny.

    Obviously you cannot.

    The physical world is really all we can worry about, isnít it? Letís assume for argumentís sake that the first cause was supernatural. Since the cause was outside of nature and cannot be detected, whatís the difference whether it happened or not? Might as well keep searching for a natural cause.

    As Mr. deGrasseTyson pointed out in a video I shared a while back, God or the supernatural was credited for the many things the former state of the art of science could not account for but now can,

    Thatís why I call your proof a God of the Gaps. You may be right. Itís just that a supernatural cause is impossible to demonstrate while science might never be able to demonstrate a natural first cause. But thatís not the same as saying youíve proven your supernatural cause.

    It is murky. Thatís why folks like you and me will be debating this stuff forever. Or at least until a natural first cause is found. When will that be?

    Who the hell knows when that will ever happen, assuming it even will? But we have to keep trying. Thatís all we can do. Personally, I think thatís better than just stopping in our tracks, saying it will be impossible to ever figure out by citing what we presently know about the natural worldís limitations and labeling it a supernatural first cause.

    But reasonable people can disagree.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 10-23-2018 at 05:42 AM.

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