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  1. #1336
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    Sluggo, I appreciate you because you at least put the time in to argue your points. I disagree almost universally, but at least you show that you're thinking about these things. That can't be said about some of your peers. And if there's one thing anyone should about me, it's that I'm too wordy. So I can appreciate your wordiness too!

    That said, I'm going to not respond and instead differ to Hawk and statquo's responses, which work good-enough for me. I think most everything I would respond with I've said a million times over.

    I do have to say that the "human nature" argument is a complete miss for me. I don't think it's something that can be backed up and I especially don't think it's a good reason to accept the reality we're living in. A reality where all the wealth is concentrated among a tiny amount of people and the rest of the country has truly been left behind. I'd be more interested in hearing how you'd go about addressing that problem. I don't accept that it isn't a problem and I don't even think the furthest right people here would contend it isn't. The right talks about the working class plenty...they at least feign concern.

    And hell, this is a bipartisan failure. Democrats long have proved they don't have the answers to this any more readily than their Republican counter parts. I think they're less destructive, but broadly Neoliberalism has been incredibly destructive to the working class as well.
    HELLO

  2. #1337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    What country that is a supposed leader of the free world has such a disparity in income? Seriously?

    What opportunities are there now? Work hard, so you can take on a massive college debt, and then go make enough to barley pay it off, and forget about raising a family on a so called "middle class income" today, with health costs, housing, education, and everything else increasing FAR faster than wages.

    I know you are older, and come from the luckiest generation this country has ever seen, but where exactly do you think opportunities lie?

    Either wages need to accelerate beyond inflation to catch up, or we need redistribution to some degree. We can't have a tiny percentage of people making so much, and such a massive portion making so little.

    Again, you sound just like my father. Young people have no drive, blah blah blah. Well your generation is now sucking the system totally dry, and will continue to do so. Then you have the audacity to call younger people lazy.

    Govt absolutely controls the cost of things to a large degree. But so do outside factors, that guess what, govt could control if they wanted.

    So you don't want to "penalize" those who make way more than average. Got it. But you also don't want to help those who don't, and can't make that money. Why is that? Because of choices? I just don't buy that. I don't buy everyone has the same opportunities, at all. Because they don't. And anyone who believes so is being lied to. The working class, ie the middle group, has been left behind. Period. This needs to stop.

    I don't think anyone wants to just take from the rich and give to the poor. That is nonsense. But people would like for it to be possible to live in comfort with a decent job, instead of struggling. Which is what most of America does now.
    Opportunity is pretty much everywhere.

    Maybe people need to look at their wages and think about what they need and can afford. I think it's hilarious when Apple announces a new phone, people are willing to camp out overnight to be able to get the new phone…and they already have a phone.

    College debt… I see an awful lot of non-college material that have college debt. Maybe they should choose no t to go to college. It really isn't for everyone.

    "You people have no drive." Drive comes from necessity. A lot of people don't have that need as housing, food, medical is all provided by the state. (Know anyone that gets food assistance or SNAP that really doesn't need it. Plenty of that going around). Maybe a little push now and then could go a long way.

    Government needs to provide the path to getting ahead. People need to just travel on the path.

    One thing government could/should do is tighten up on lending. Know anyone who is house poor (I could name more tan a few) or who overbought on a car? They pretty much give this stuff away to anyone who barely qualifies. No income verification mortgages, 5% down. Loan terms you can't figure out. 8 year car loans no money down etc. Then, surprise, a few months later they're a financial disaster. Most people aren't all that sharp with their finances. Something should be done about this.

    So we give them the homes, cars, appliances, whatever they really can't afford. This is an area government could step in.

    Of course, as soon as you properly try to qualify people for lending, it gets called racist

  3. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Sluggo, I appreciate you because you at least put the time in to argue your points. I disagree almost universally, but at least you show that you're thinking about these things. That can't be said about some of your peers. And if there's one thing anyone should about me, it's that I'm too wordy. So I can appreciate your wordiness too!

    That said, I'm going to not respond and instead differ to Hawk and statquo's responses, which work good-enough for me. I think most everything I would respond with I've said a million times over.

    I do have to say that the "human nature" argument is a complete miss for me. I don't think it's something that can be backed up and I especially don't think it's a good reason to accept the reality we're living in. A reality where all the wealth is concentrated among a tiny amount of people and the rest of the country has truly been left behind. I'd be more interested in hearing how you'd go about addressing that problem. I don't accept that it isn't a problem and I don't even think the furthest right people here would contend it isn't. The right talks about the working class plenty...they at least feign concern.

    And hell, this is a bipartisan failure. Democrats long have proved they don't have the answers to this any more readily than their Republican counter parts. I think they're less destructive, but broadly Neoliberalism has been incredibly destructive to the working class as well.
    I mentioned this before (to much criticism) but I will throw it out there again (I'm sure to receive much criticism).

    A philosophy teacher way back when taught a class pertaining to the nature of things (it was a Catholic college 9 credits of philosophy was required). The premise was that all living things have an innate nature inbred into them. Regardless of the sophistication of the creature, everything had a nature. Cats are loners. Dogs generally are not. Etc.

    Humans also have an innate nature. We're aggressive by nature. We always desire more by nature. We could probably be considered greedy (greed, for want of a better word, is good). These qualities probably explain why there have been so many wars. In all periods of history and in all parts of the world, wars have existed. It's in our nature. It is also in our nature to work to improve. It's in our nature to be inquisitive. That plus and advanced intellect is why things change for the better, why things advance. Animal can't do that, only we can. Humans are naturally caring toward others around them so long as their environment is secure (the greed factor is satisfied). Humans can reach a degree of satisfaction but are always considering what's next.

    Problems arise when outside forces try to change a creature's nature. Try to get a cat to walk on a leash. he won't do it. (I know some have trained them to do it but they are outliers.) It's against his nature. What we've done with many people is to force them to go against their inherent nature by taking away their needs to advance…pretty much paying for everything they have takes away the need to succeed. It's like the "please don't feed the alligators" policy all over Florida. Doing so takes away their nature to be a hunter (polar bears up north same/same). The family unit is/was a big part of human nature. Those that live in it seem to be doing better than those that don't

    Overtaxing the rich goes against their nature. They'll just coast and become less than they were.

    Taking care of everything for the poor goes against their nature. They'll just coast and become less than they could be.

    Both ends of the economic scale lose. The rich just lose in nicer surroundings.

    Unions do their members a huge disservice by taking away the need to get ahead. Wonder why our schools are so bad…teachers can't get fired and they have no need to get ahead or to produce.

    Anywhere you force people to act against their nature, things get screwed up. See communism.

    Now I'll save most of you the trouble……"What a bunch of ****"

    Even got me to use foul language.

  4. #1339
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    Human nature is to be douches, therefore we should all be OK with douchebaggery.

  5. #1340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Opportunity is pretty much everywhere.

    Maybe people need to look at their wages and think about what they need and can afford. I think it's hilarious when Apple announces a new phone, people are willing to camp out overnight to be able to get the new phone…and they already have a phone.

    College debt… I see an awful lot of non-college material that have college debt. Maybe they should choose no t to go to college. It really isn't for everyone.

    "You people have no drive." Drive comes from necessity. A lot of people don't have that need as housing, food, medical is all provided by the state. (Know anyone that gets food assistance or SNAP that really doesn't need it. Plenty of that going around). Maybe a little push now and then could go a long way.

    Government needs to provide the path to getting ahead. People need to just travel on the path.

    One thing government could/should do is tighten up on lending. Know anyone who is house poor (I could name more tan a few) or who overbought on a car? They pretty much give this stuff away to anyone who barely qualifies. No income verification mortgages, 5% down. Loan terms you can't figure out. 8 year car loans no money down etc. Then, surprise, a few months later they're a financial disaster. Most people aren't all that sharp with their finances. Something should be done about this.

    So we give them the homes, cars, appliances, whatever they really can't afford. This is an area government could step in.

    Of course, as soon as you properly try to qualify people for lending, it gets called racist
    well, I guess people are too stupid to protect from themselves then.

    That is the jist of your post. Let predatory business exist and thrive, and blame the people. That is literally what you condone. Fine.

    No worries. Once your generation has sucked Social Security dry, has spiraled healthcare out of control, and finally dies, we will be left with the aftermath. inside of course, because it will be too hot to go outside.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #1341
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Human nature is to be douches, therefore we should all be OK with douchebaggery.
    I may stop working and just go break into wealthy neighborhoods with gates to show em' who is boss

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Human nature is to be douches, therefore we should all be OK with douchebaggery.
    Nevermind that it’s completely wrong and ignores 250,000+yrs of human history. Egalitarian societies have dominated our history.

  8. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    well, I guess people are too stupid to protect from themselves then.

    That is the jist of your post. Let predatory business exist and thrive, and blame the people. That is literally what you condone. Fine.

    No worries. Once your generation has sucked Social Security dry, has spiraled healthcare out of control, and finally dies, we will be left with the aftermath. inside of course, because it will be too hot to go outside.
    You may want to go back and re-read a bit.

    I clearly said: One thing government could/should do is tighten up on lending.

    A lot of people (not all, not a majority but a lot) are too stupid to protect themselves. Some are clueless in this area.

    Rent to own
    Check cashing business
    Pawn shops
    Payday advances etc.
    Balloon loans.
    ATMs at casinos

    A lot of people should be protected from this. Governments, at all levels, drop the ball here.

    I watch a lot of baseball (Mets). Seems like every road game has an advertisement for a local casino. They seem to be everywhere. Do we really need that? That doesn't affect the wealthy anywhere near as it affects the poor. Sometimes need tp be protected from themselves…but they have a right to freely run themselves into the ground.

  9. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Nevermind that it’s completely wrong and ignores 250,000+yrs of human history. Egalitarian societies have dominated our history.
    Never said humans weren't egalitarian. Just said it is in our nature to strive to get ahead.

  10. #1345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Never said humans weren't egalitarian. Just said it is in our nature to strive to get ahead.
    Nobody has a problem with people striving to get ahead, it's the at the expense of others part that most people don't like.

  11. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Never said humans weren't egalitarian. Just said it is in our nature to strive to get ahead.
    Except for the majority of time that we’ve been a species. Civilization is a product of our need to work together, not a product of our need to get on over on the next guy.

  12. #1347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    You may want to go back and re-read a bit.

    I clearly said: One thing government could/should do is tighten up on lending.

    A lot of people (not all, not a majority but a lot) are too stupid to protect themselves. Some are clueless in this area.

    Rent to own
    Check cashing business
    Pawn shops
    Payday advances etc.
    Balloon loans.
    ATMs at casinos

    A lot of people should be protected from this. Governments, at all levels, drop the ball here.

    I watch a lot of baseball (Mets). Seems like every road game has an advertisement for a local casino. They seem to be everywhere. Do we really need that? That doesn't affect the wealthy anywhere near as it affects the poor. Sometimes need tp be protected from themselves…but they have a right to freely run themselves into the ground.
    ever think the rate of alcoholism, smoking, gambling, etc, are more common in the poor because they need a way to forget life for a while?

    It's more than lending that has oozed into predatory. Look no further than the cost of medical care for example. Or daycare. A car when I was 16 cost $6-8k for a reliable new car. It costs 25k now. I am fairly certain wage increases since 1991 won't fit that percentage.

    Everything going up, wages stagnant. Something has to change.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  13. #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Never said humans weren't egalitarian. Just said it is in our nature to strive to get ahead.
    Your justifying a selfish desire meanwhile turning your back on the very principals this country was founded upon.

    Most people are under the illusion that the United States has a “capitalist economy” today, but that simply is not accurate. At best, we have a “mixed economy” that is becoming a little bit more socialist with each passing day. We pay dozens of different types of taxes each year, and some Americans actually end up giving more of their earnings to the government than they keep themselves. But that is still not enough, and so our state governments have accumulated astounding amounts of debt, and our federal government has amassed the largest single debt that the world has ever seen. If future generations of Americans get the chance, they will curse us for the chains of debt that we have placed upon their shoulders.

    Despite this unprecedented wealth-redistribution program, poverty is absolutely exploding in this country and 49 million Americans are dealing with food insecurity.

    Meanwhile, the bankers have been getting fabulously wealthy from all of this debt. The Federal Reserve system was designed to trap the U.S. government in an endless spiral of debt from which it could never possibly escape, and that mission has been accomplished. In fact, the U.S. national debt is now more than 5000 times larger than it was when the Federal Reserve was first created a little more than 100 years ago.

    Most people like to think of big banks as “capitalist” institutions, but that is not really accurate. In the end, giant corporate banks like we have in the United States are actually collectivist institutions. They tend to greatly concentrate wealth and power, and socialists find those kinds of banks very useful.

    In fact, Vladimir Lenin once said that “without big banks, socialism would be impossible.”

    While there may be a bit of animosity between big government and big banks once in a while, the truth is that they are usually very closely tied to one another. We saw this close relationship very clearly during the financial crisis of 2008, and it is no secret that there is a revolving door between the boardrooms of Wall Street and the halls of power in Washington. The elite dominate both spheres, and it is not for the benefit of the rest of us.

    In America today, government just keeps getting bigger and the banks just keep getting bigger. Meanwhile, the percentage of self-employed Americans is at an all-time low and the middle class is steadily dying.

    What we are doing right now is clearly not working.

    So why don’t we go back and do the things that we were doing when we were extremely successful as a nation?

  14. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Except for the majority of time that we’ve been a species. Civilization is a product of our need to work together, not a product of our need to get on over on the next guy.
    It's , How does eliminating the estate tax make people thrive?

  15. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    ever think the rate of alcoholism, smoking, gambling, etc, are more common in the poor because they need a way to forget life for a while?

    It's more than lending that has oozed into predatory. Look no further than the cost of medical care for example. Or daycare. A car when I was 16 cost $6-8k for a reliable new car. It costs 25k now. I am fairly certain wage increases since 1991 won't fit that percentage.

    Everything going up, wages stagnant. Something has to change.
    Bolded…you left out drugs.

    A little self control would be greatly appreciated and go a long way.

    A rule of thumb used to be your home should be no more than 3 times your annual salary. How many people follow that rule anymore?. If enough people held to that, builders would build more moderately priced homes. But people give into these dreams, banks give them money and the builders are happy yo comply. Same with cars. No one ever should take a 7 year loan but many do. Everyone wants navigation systems, power every way seats (how often do you change your seat position), cameras, radars etc.. It just drives the price up and people pay it. There are almost no "reasonably" priced cars and when someone does drive one others seem to make fun of them.n I'm guilty too. We overspent on one of our vehicles. More comfortable, more conveniences. But we could have gotten away for 10 Gs less and still been fine. Human nature.

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