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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    You post has absolutely no relevance.
    Nah, it’s pretty dead on. I wasn’t born yesterday. I’ve seen your posts

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Yep. That’s why I’m an advocate of something similiar to the German system, which is by no means even tuition free(don’t know where that myth was started). They start separating kids based on performance at the junior high level, with avenues that allow underperforming kids to turn things around so that they aren’t locked in at 13-14.

    I’d start with a system here that rewards the top 25% of top performers(at individual schools)with tuition free state school. I’d like to see money made available (grants,loans) to those that want to attend CC and extend tuition free benefits to the top performers there that want to continue their education. I’d take ten percent out of the military budget to pay for it. Those cuts would be reducing the size of the military, rather than the quality of facilities, equipment, training, education etc..Then i’d move toward a tiered k-12 system following the German model looking to clean up the inefficiencies that many have pointed to in the system along the way.
    I know this is getting off topic a bit, but educational reform might well be a part of “access.”

    The German system and in fact most European models fail the US in one major respect: extracurriculars. In particular, they do not generally support semi-pro athletic teams (Div. I and II) or even amateur interscholatic sports teams (Div. III). The NCAA is a formidable organization.

    This uniquely American model has trickled down to a many of the US public high schools as well, and as often as not, becomes the tail that wags the dog.

    Lest I isolate athletics entirely — though it is the poster boy for this issue — there are other extracurriculars that we might put in the same boat.
    Last edited by Crovash; 08-15-2018 at 02:01 PM.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Sure there will be problems. There’s no perfect...anything. But do those nit picky issues outweigh crippling debt that holds back middle class workers out of college and prevents people from going to college in the first place, lowering the collective education of our adult population? I don’t think so.
    I think the student loan problem is huge and probably a bigger problem than people think. I think you may be able to agree with that.

    There are several issues with the student loan problem…

    1. It allows too many people to go to college that should probably not be there. Not everyone is college material. That is not cold, that is reality. Kids just go because it is thought of as the next logical step or it makes their parents happy. Some kids would be better off delivering pizza than going to college. Huge amounts of kids come out of college expecting a great job and find out things just don't work that way.

    2. Student loans are much too easy to get and to add on to. It perpetuates the problem. Maybe some kids should be cut loose after 1-2 years if they haven't shown anything. Maybe schools themselves should give the loans instead of banks. Then see how well the qualify some of these kids. Schools nave nothing to lose under the current structure.

    3. It is too easy to prolong college (and adulthood). 4 year degrees are not necessarily the norm anymore. Colleges should make their scheduling more conducive to faster degrees. Kids need to push a little more than they do. Maybe no student loans after 4 years would push give them a nudge

    4. College guidance could be greatly improved to move these kids along faster or plot more realistic courses and expectations. (I know of someone with a degree in 'Sports Marketing" [whatever that is but it sounds hip] and is shocked she just can't get a job with any of the local pro sports teams. Like they're all just waiting for her.) Is a degree in "African Studies" going to help in getting a typical job. Or "Anthropology" etc. If you going into those fields then by all means go for it; but if your just looking for a regular job, you may be wasting your time…at a great expense.

    5. High schools should stop passing students who don't deserve to pass. Get rid of the useless classes many high schools seem to have. Replace them with life experience classes (e.g. how does a credit card really work instead of music for someone who has no music ability.)

    6. I mentioned in another post that business should be encourage to pay for education for qualified employees with the understanding that employee agrees to a reasonable employment period after X many years (3 - 5). This would get better young people as applicants and encourage them along.

    All of this should be tightened up before throwing us all into free tuition.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I know this is getting off topic a bit, but educational reform might well be a part of “access.”

    The German system and in fact most European models fail the US in one major respect: extracurriculars. In particular, they do not generally support semi-pro athletic teams (Div. I and II) or even amateur interscholatic sports teams (Div. III). The NCAA is a formidable organization.

    This uniquely American model has trickled down to a many of the US public high schools as well, and as often as not, becomes the tail that wags the dog.

    Lest I isolate athletics entirely — though it is the poster boy for this issue — there are other extracurriculars that we might put in the same boat.
    Agree whole heartedly. We just passed a 4.5mil referendum with 2.5 mil going to renovating a football field that 50 kids will play on. We quite literally could have sent every kid that plays sports at our school to college with that money. Priorities

    I do appreciate the extracurriculars, I would have dropped out if not for the football we played on a glorified cornfield. Wrestling paid my way through college, but it could have just as easily been a club event. My scholarships were earned in the offseason tourney’s.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Agree whole heartedly. We just passed a 4.5mil referendum with 2.5 mil going to renovating a football field that 50 kids will play on. We quite literally could have sent every kid that plays sports at our school to college with that money. Priorities

    I do appreciate the extracurriculars, I would have dropped out if not for the football we played on a glorified cornfield. Wrestling paid my way through college, but it could have just as easily been a club event. My scholarships were earned in the offseason tourney’s.
    I agree whole heartedly with this.

    It sounds like you must be in Texas. They take this stuff pretty seriously down there. One of the Texas colleges spent several million dollars renovating the locker room. I remember thinking this could have paid for books for the entire student body.

    I said in another post that in 40 of the 50 states the highest paid public employee is a coach. Something is wrong with that scenario. I'm sure the alumni encourage this but huge amounts of money are spent on college sports.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    I agree whole heartedly with this.

    It sounds like you must be in Texas. They take this stuff pretty seriously down there. One of the Texas colleges spent several million dollars renovating the locker room. I remember thinking this could have paid for books for the entire student body.

    I said in another post that in 40 of the 50 states the highest paid public employee is a coach. Something is wrong with that scenario. I'm sure the alumni encourage this but huge amounts of money are spent on college sports.
    Illinois. Football is out of control everywhere.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Illinois. Football is out of control everywhere.
    One last point…How about if you sign on with a sports scholarship with a college that you also sign a clause agreeing to reimburse the school if you get a pro deal.

    The colleges are cultivating the garden and the pros are picking the flowers for free.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    One last point…How about if you sign on with a sports scholarship with a college that you also sign a clause agreeing to reimburse the school if you get a pro deal.

    The colleges are cultivating the garden and the pros are picking the flowers for free.
    I guess you aren't aware of the money that is made off a successful college football or basketball program, that more than make up for the money spent on these kids sholarships

    Often these successfull sport programs enable sports sholarships in the non-glamourous sports like tennis, or swimming.
    Last edited by WES445; 08-15-2018 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    again, my point is, if you walk around saying "free" anything, you immediately get labeled. You just can't do that and be taken seriously by half the population.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    bingo. You can't come in with that mantra and not get immediate divide. We talk about how Trump needs to rope it in, as a politician, you can't just say things like "free" anything. That doesn't exist. Develop the idea into something people can swallow, not just laugh off.
    Sluggo stated -- which you agreed -- that "preaching free anything will get a good following". Yet you also stated that using the term "free" will get you labeled as extreme/fringe/out of the mainstream.

    Do you not see this glaring contradiction?
    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”

    -JFK


  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    One last point…How about if you sign on with a sports scholarship with a college that you also sign a clause agreeing to reimburse the school if you get a pro deal.

    The colleges are cultivating the garden and the pros are picking the flowers for free.
    The colleges make their money back on athletes. I’d rather see a European model where kids go pro at 13-14. I was working out 40+ hours a week year round when I was that age. I got around 100k for 10+ years of working 40+ hours a week and one major injury would have negated that work. I’m a little different story, because wrestling was a job and a way out for me. It wasn’t fun for me by the time I was competing nationally and internationally. Sports shouldnt be associated at all with the schools, just pay the players and have youth leagues.

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    I guess you aren't aware of the money that is made off a successful college football or basketball program, that more than make up for the money spent on these kids sholarships

    Often these successfull sport programs enable sports sholarships in the non-glamourous sports like tennis, or swimming.
    Yeah, those big draw sports paid for my education

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    I guess you aren't aware of the money that is made off a successful college football or basketball program, that more than make up for the money spent on these kids sholarships

    Often these successfull sport programs enable sports sholarships in the non-glamourous sports like tennis, or swimming.
    Assuming sports and therefore sports scholarships should even been a part of colleges and/or universities (no need to respond — obviously, they are well entrenched in the culture and in the institutions, so we’re not about to change it).

    Just means the German model would not serve us well as a template for reform.

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Assuming sports and therefore sports scholarships should even been a part of colleges and/or universities (no need to respond — obviously, they are well entrenched in the culture and in the institutions, so we’re not about to change it).

    Just means the German model would not serve us well as a template for reform.
    I don’t know. We were comfortable with the club model in sports when I was in them(20yrs ago), and it’s only become more popular since. That was where the competition was. It’s become more and more common in the smaller draw sports. At the small school level among high schools, we are seeing more and more kids opt for club sports over school sports. Granted that’s because parents want the exposure for scholarships.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter_White View Post
    Sluggo stated -- which you agreed -- that "preaching free anything will get a good following". Yet you also stated that using the term "free" will get you labeled as extreme/fringe/out of the mainstream.

    Do you not see this glaring contradiction?
    catch phrases tend to attract followers, and turn others off. They aren't productive. "Free" anything, will catch a lot of eyes, yet go nowhere in conversations.

    While I am sure you have another shot to take (it's all you really offer), if you haven't gotten my attempted point by now, you won't.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    I don’t know. We were comfortable with the club model in sports when I was in them(20yrs ago), and it’s only become more popular since. That was where the competition was. It’s become more and more common in the smaller draw sports. At the small school level among high schools, we are seeing more and more kids opt for club sports over school sports. Granted that’s because parents want the exposure for scholarships.
    The US club sport system can be insidious, given that most of them are built on a pay-as-you-go basis, which does two potentially negative things: (1) it can deter families who do not have the requisite resources, and (2) it generates an investment mentality — i.e. your observation that many do it to gain exposure for potential scholarships.

    Frankly, the Premier League model in England makes the most sense for budding athletes. Kid thinks he’s got potential? He tries out for the Under 12 - 18 team affiliated with the pro team.

    https://www.premierleague.com/gallery/409257
    Last edited by Crovash; 08-15-2018 at 03:41 PM.

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