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  1. #3391
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Fine. This isn't going anywhere. This is about as circular as it gets. You believe what you do, and I believe what I do.

    The only difference is I have more faith in an individual and less faith in the medical provider.

    You're acting like a liberal. And I'm not taking a shot at you by saying that. Liberals have fostered the demise of individual accountability. Everything is everyone else's fault. It's a shame.

    The day this country progresses the individual accountability campaign, is the day we get better as a country.

    Everything is an excuse.
    Blaming the individual is an excuse. One that's so very often used to give systemic failures a pass.
    Yankees Farm System

  2. #3392
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    I was going to jump back in to respond back to dbroncs, but valade really has this on lock.

    Also lets not ignore often times companies have conflicting data on their product that they withhold because it's not beneficial to them. At some point, our corporations (which are apparently people nowadays) need to have personal responsibility as well.

    The first step in their manufactured supply chain of marketing is just convincing the end user that they have a problem. Their goal isn't to help consumers, it's to sell their product. And that can be very dangerous when you are dealing with such powerful medications.

    We need to get back to letting doctors doctor, and medicine companies should be focused on R&D, not marketing.
    I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked valade. What drug currently being advertised is trending towards an addiction epidemic? What drug currently being advertised can be obtained without a prescription? What drug currently being advertised is causing people without disease to take those drugs?

  3. #3393
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Do you think pharma advertising to Doctors and pushing them to prescribe their products contributed to that or no?
    It for sure could, depends on the situations and that's why we blame those specific cases (just like blaming actual fake news instead of media as a whole).

    I also think advertising good drugs to doctors may help people.

    The advertising and marketing of products isn't an issue it is the product/doctors pushing it if bad or when unneeded that is the issue again though. It could be good it could be bad it depends on the situation. When the situation is bad that is because of said company/product/doctor, the advertising is just advertising.

  4. #3394
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Fine. This isn't going anywhere. This is about as circular as it gets. You believe what you do, and I believe what I do.

    The only difference is I have more faith in an individual and less faith in the medical provider.

    You're acting like a liberal. And I'm not taking a shot at you by saying that. Liberals have fostered the demise of individual accountability. Everything is everyone else's fault. It's a shame.

    The day this country progresses the individual accountability campaign, is the day we get better as a country.

    Everything is an excuse.

    And you never answered my question. What drug currently being advertised is trending towards an addiction epidemic?
    You donít seem to have much faith in individuals being able to exercise personal responsibility when it comes to cigarette commercials.

    I wonít stoop to the level of making a blanket statement about how conservatives are destroying this country, because my points stood on their own. Yours didnít, hence the shot but not a shot at liberals followed by taking your ball and going home.

    And to answer your question, I think there is a strong correlation between advertising for antidepressants and our massive use of them.

  5. #3395
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It for sure could, depends on the situations and that's why we blame those specific cases (just like blaming actual fake news instead of media as a whole).

    I also think advertising good drugs to doctors may help people.

    The advertising and marketing of products isn't an issue it is the product/doctors pushing it if bad or when unneeded that is the issue again though. It could be good it could be bad it depends on the situation. When the situation is bad that is because of said company/product/doctor, the advertising is just advertising.
    If you want to argue the philosophical advertising is neither good nor bad it depends on the use, fine. Iíll bite. Iím saying the advertising in those case in general is bad.

  6. #3396
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You donít seem to have much faith in individuals being able to exercise personal responsibility when it comes to cigarette commercials.

    I wonít stoop to the level of making a blanket statement about how conservatives are destroying this country, because my points stood on their own. Yours didnít, hence the shot but not a shot at liberals followed by taking your ball and going home.

    And to answer your question, I think there is a strong correlation between advertising for antidepressants and our massive use of them.
    Antidepressants is a great starter.unfortunatelyy people see themselves as depressional and pray that their bypolar gets handled. Thats what I saw in this specification. And those drugs work through a professional doctor, I'm still not sure of your pointm
    Last edited by dbroncsinmo; 04-22-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #3397
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If you want to argue the philosophical advertising is neither good nor bad it depends on the use, fine. Iíll bite. Iím saying the advertising in those case in general is bad.
    Yes I just caught up on other posts and my argument is not that it all falls on the individual here tbh, it is more that the individual is screwed either way by healthcare system/doctors. That system is the true problem. The advertisement is not good or bad, in order to do so it would need to be false/fake and dangerous to people and so on. It depends on the specific advertisements and if they are actively pushing false things but generally promoting a drug that helps some people but not most? Alright welcome to medicine for specific illnesses/diseases/injuries that many people have to deal with.

    Advertising drugs can be good or bad depending on the following actions/if it is truthful. If I need said drug it might be good to know about but more often than not today you could argue it might be bad sure. The reason for that moreso comes down to how the doctors/system have been handling the entire situation though. Until that system is changed I don't really think the advertising matters, I would guess it is more behind the scenes deals than actual advertising more often than not anyways tbh but that's reaching/without proof so can't get into it.

    The key issue is that no matter if it is advertised or not via commercials etc. if the system/doctors are pushing it on patients who don't need it that's always going to be the true problem. If they are doing so simply due to seeing an advertisement I think there is a major problem with how the healthcare industry works anyways lol, that just seems so irrelevant to the real issue to me. It might make it worse but I don't think you should ignore it could also help people either just because of that.

  8. #3398
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Yes I just caught up on other posts and my argument is not that it all falls on the individual here tbh, it is more that the individual is screwed either way by healthcare system/doctors. That system is the true problem. The advertisement is not good or bad, in order to do so it would need to be false/fake and dangerous to people and so on. It depends on the specific advertisements and if they are actively pushing false things but generally promoting a drug that helps some people but not most? Alright welcome to medicine for specific illnesses/diseases/injuries that many people have to deal with.

    Advertising drugs can be good or bad depending on the following actions/if it is truthful. If I need said drug it might be good to know about but more often than not today you could argue it might be bad sure. The reason for that moreso comes down to how the doctors/system have been handling the entire situation though. Until that system is changed I don't really think the advertising matters, I would guess it is more behind the scenes deals than actual advertising more often than not anyways tbh but that's reaching/without proof so can't get into it.

    The key issue is that no matter if it is advertised or not via commercials etc. if the system/doctors are pushing it on patients who don't need it that's always going to be the true problem. If they are doing so simply due to seeing an advertisement I think there is a major problem with how the healthcare industry works anyways lol, that just seems so irrelevant to the real issue to me. It might make it worse but I don't think you should ignore it could also help people either just because of that.
    You keep harping on Doctors pushing medication they donít need on patients but completely discount the opposite scenario. There are plenty of stories where patients come in and demand a specific medication they saw on an Ad to the point where Doctors feel pressured into giving them that medication, particularly antidepressants.

    https://khn.org/news/study-doctors-g...nd-name-drugs/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4151257/


    You seem to be under the misguided belief itís doctors pushing all these medications on patients, to the contrary often times itís patients pushing these medications on Doctors.

  9. #3399
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Antidepressants is a great starter.unfortunatelyy people see themselves as depressional and pray that their bypolar gets handled. Thats what I saw in this specification. And those drugs work through a professional doctor, I'm still not sure of your pointm
    My point is the answer to this question: do you think advertising antidepressants has increased the amount of people on antidepressants or had no effect?

  10. #3400
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    I did. What's your point?
    Okay, if you read it why are you against the end of the health insurance industry?

  11. #3401
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You keep harping on Doctors pushing medication they donít need on patients but completely discount the opposite scenario. There are plenty of stories where patients come in and demand a specific medication they saw on an Ad to the point where Doctors feel pressured into giving them that medication, particularly antidepressants.

    https://khn.org/news/study-doctors-g...nd-name-drugs/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4151257/


    You seem to be under the misguided belief itís doctors pushing all these medications on patients, to the contrary often times itís patients pushing these medications on Doctors.
    You seem to assume things I never say or actually discount, both happen lol. I have mostly talked about my own personal experiences which come from a certain perspective with real life examples to call from. That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge other people have other experiences too.

    Either way it always comes down to the doctor and it is their job. If I go to a doctor and say I want this do it, should they always do it? If you answer yes I guess we have a different view of doctors. If you answer no then... Well they would be responsible for saying no when necessary.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 04-22-2019 at 12:23 AM.

  12. #3402
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You keep harping on Doctors pushing medication they donít need on patients but completely discount the opposite scenario. There are plenty of stories where patients come in and demand a specific medication they saw on an Ad to the point where Doctors feel pressured into giving them that medication, particularly antidepressants.

    https://khn.org/news/study-doctors-g...nd-name-drugs/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4151257/


    You seem to be under the misguided belief itís doctors pushing all these medications on patients, to the contrary often times itís patients pushing these medications on Doctors.
    Every good doctor will not surbscribed a meddication that has addidctibe consequences and on that is not right for the patients situation.

    It's so bad. I went to the ER for a DVT. I was asked multiple times if I need a pain killer an that I don't won't one. I have a dvd, Im sure you can we focus on that. Yeah, but do you need a pain killer. Nope, ive done this before and it turned out what I said it was. Well let's do some evaluation to be certain that you don't need pain killers. Just give me a damn rotosound. I don't need a ****ing painkiller.

    It turned out to be exactly what I said it was.

    It finally donned on me that they were evaluating if I was an opioid addict or not.

    Anyway...good debate fellas. I have to be in the air at 5:40am, so going to bed. We can pick this up tomorrow.

  13. #3403
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo View Post
    Every good doctor will not surbscribed a meddication that has addidctibe consequences and on that is not right for the patients situation.

    It's so bad. I went to the ER for a DVT. I was asked multiple times if I need a pain killer an that I don't won't one. I have a dvd, Im sure you can we focus on that. Yeah, but do you need a pain killer. Nope, ive done this before and it turned out what I said it was. Well let's do some evaluation to be certain that you don't need pain killers. Just give me a damn rotosound. I don't need a ****ing painkiller.

    It turned out to be exactly what I said it was.

    It finally donned on me that they were evaluating if I was an opioid addict or not.

    Anyway...good debate fellas. I have to be in the air at 5:40am, so going to bed. We can pick this up tomorrow.
    Safe flight and good travels

  14. #3404
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    A slightly different slant on the pharma advertising ... drug companies are regularly criticized for the costs of the medication. I large amount of that money is going to pay for advertising. A doctor told me their rep said about 50% of the cost of the "first run" drugs is paying for the advertising to the public and the doctors. They like to say that it's about the R&D, and sure the R&D and the testing is VERY expensive, but it's not that.

    It's like the lie the record companies and the movie/TV studios tell about the costs of things. Oh, your record hasn't broken even yet despite selling 1 million copies. Movie's often spend more on advertising than the movie costs, sometimes several times more. It's BS "creative accounting".

    Inform doctors of new drugs available ... inform, don't wine, dine, and bribe them. Then it is your doctor's responsibility to prescribe them to you. They are literally putting their name on it and we are acting like the patients are the experts.

    Does ANYBODY believe that drugs being advertised LOWERS the cost of health care?

  15. #3405
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You seem to assume things I never say or actually discount, both happen lol. I have mostly talked about my own personal experiences which come from a certain perspective with real life examples to call from. That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge other people have other experiences too.

    Either way it always comes down to the doctor and it is their job. If I go to a doctor and say I want this do it, should they always do it? If you answer yes I guess we have a different view of doctors. If you answer no then... Well they would be responsible for saying no when necessary.
    Of course a Doctor shouldnít acquiesce to any demand for medication a patient has. But if you start to vilify Doctors be careful, less people are going to want to be a Doctor. This isnít a Doctor problem of prescribing medications patients are demanding, itís a human nature problem.

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