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  1. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    Agreed, but I think the hypocrisy rings much more true when it comes to climate change for reasons like those you point out above.


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    it's the old, "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Tough for some to swallow.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  2. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    well, to be fair, anytime someone marches to the flag of, "fighting for the little guy", then takes on the big guy lifestyle and makes a ton of money, their message becomes conflicted.
    My point was not to defend her by any stretch, but to point out that hypocrisy is rampant in politics (I could come up with countless “whatabouts” to compare with “fighting for the little guy”).

  3. #2028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    My point was not to defend her by any stretch, but to point out that hypocrisy is rampant in politics (I could come up with countless “whatabouts” to compare with “fighting for the little guy”).
    oh god dude, you would shut PSD down due to lack of space with that post.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  4. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    News Flash.

    You may want to write this down.

    Your wages have nothing to do with how much money you need to live on. Your wages have everything to do with how much money the job you are performing is worth to the employer. Raising minimum wage does not increase the value of the worker. It increases the cost of the worker.

    Low end jobs (burger flippers, pizza deliverers, lawn people etc) are not worth $15 an hour.

    Pass a law with unreasonable minimum wage and the following will happen…

    People will lose jobs as management will deem those jobs too expensive to pay.

    Prices will go up as management keeps some people on but at a higher cost.

    People on the low end will be forced to work harder since there will be just as much work and less people to do that work.

    Probably a combination of the concepts above but there will be less people working. Bet in it.

    A Big Mac meal is about $7. Patrons will not pay much more than that. They will brown bag or find something else. If this happens, less jobs are needed.

    Ownership will simply not make less money to pay low end people more money. This will never happen. Ownership will go with less people working much harder and will automate as much as possible. If ownership cannot get rid of low paying employees, they will automate out higher paid employees to compensate. Bottom line…there will be less jobs.

    Ownership's profit margins will remain the same (might even go up with the tax advantages of purchasing additional equipment.)

    $15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. It will hurt the people it is most intended to help.
    Plenty of studies have shown otherwise. Including analysis on what was recently done in Seattle which had a very accelerated jump.

    And the one report that came out bashing it, was severely trashed by fellow economists for its statistical method flaws. Flaws that their own authors eventually admitted to. Never mind there data wasn’t fully released.

    I’d rather go for a UBI, but that seems to be a ways away in the States until the older generation dies off.


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  5. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    Plenty of studies have shown otherwise. Including analysis on what was recently done in Seattle which had a very accelerated jump.

    And the one report that came out bashing it, was severely trashed by fellow economists for its statistical method flaws. Flaws that their own authors eventually admitted to. Never mind there data wasn’t fully released.

    I’d rather go for a UBI, but that seems to be a ways away in the States until the older generation dies off.


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    Speaking of Seattle…

    Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.

    Seattle started $15 minimum wages.

    To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.

    The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.

    You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.


    Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.

    Layoffs
    Automation
    Higher prices.

  6. #2031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Speaking of Seattle…

    Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.

    Seattle started $15 minimum wages.

    To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.

    The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.

    You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.


    Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.

    Layoffs
    Automation
    Higher prices.
    Thanks for giving me an example of one shop in all of Seattle.

    I’ll take the studies and statistics that are, wait for it, reality. Not some BS one off narrative you can pick or choose.


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  7. #2032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Speaking of Seattle…

    Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.

    Seattle started $15 minimum wages.

    To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.

    The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.

    You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.


    Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.

    Layoffs
    Automation
    Higher prices.
    Then let's talk about reality. I live in Seattle and if you go there you will find PLENTY of Subways. Contrary to your beliefs, Seattle is not some barren wasteland of Subways because it's now too expensive to operate one there thanks to the minimum wage.

    If a single Subway in Seattle shuts down after the minimum wage increase, it's because that manager/owner sucks and not because of the minimum wage increase, because all the other Subways are still in business.

  8. #2033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Speaking of Seattle…

    Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.

    Seattle started $15 minimum wages.

    To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.

    The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.

    You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.


    Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.

    Layoffs
    Automation
    Higher prices.
    to counter your concerns (and I have them too), this will also cause businesses to operate at a more efficient clip, and find new methods of operations. At some point, taking a burger order and handing it to a customer was going to automation anyways, but I do get your point, even if some economists don't agree necessarily. Common sense tells us cost will rise of goods if you force the labor market to take on more cost. But there are plenty of other factors to consider.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  9. #2034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    it's the old, "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Tough for some to swallow.
    In her defense, Ocasio-Cortez no longer qualifies for low-income housing, whether or not she wants it. That said, the prudent thing to have done would have been to find an apartment (if available) in a mixed income unit situation.

  10. #2035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Speaking of Seattle…

    Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.

    Seattle started $15 minimum wages.

    To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.

    The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.

    You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.


    Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.

    Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.

    Layoffs
    Automation
    Higher prices.
    Those that can’t compete, die. Law of the jungle.

  11. #2036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    In her defense, Ocasio-Cortez no longer qualifies for low-income housing, whether or not she wants it. That said, the prudent thing to have done would have been to find an apartment (if available) in a mixed income unit situation.
    Its stupid. Knowing that if everyone stop using products with palm oil would save the rain forest lands and amazing creatures doesn’t mean you can’t use the soap in a public bathroom. I’m sure she had realtor that showed her places that would suit her needs and she took one just like anyone else would. If she gets in bed with the people she spoke out against on the campaign trail as a politician then we have something to talk about


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  12. #2037
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    Pretty ironic that a $15 min wage is seen as devastating to businesses and workers while tariffs on industries that reduce competition and raise prices are seen as good for businesses and workers.

    And lol at fast food joints having to lay of workers because of a $15 min wage. The US is the fattest country in the world those places are always going to be making profit.


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  13. #2038
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    With all things being fair, there is some truth to this.

    Being forced to pay more than something is worth (labor) is an unfair restriction.

  14. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    to counter your concerns (and I have them too), this will also cause businesses to operate at a more efficient clip, and find new methods of operations. At some point, taking a burger order and handing it to a customer was going to automation anyways, but I do get your point, even if some economists don't agree necessarily. Common sense tells us cost will rise of goods if you force the labor market to take on more cost. But there are plenty of other factors to consider.
    If all this happens and business is forced to operate more efficiently…then comes the call for $20 minimum wage and Universal Basic Income because there are now less jobs and higher prices.

    And round and round we go.

  15. #2040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    With all things being fair, there is some truth to this.

    Being forced to pay more than something is worth (labor) is an unfair restriction.
    As with all political debates. There is some truth to it.

    Paying too much for labor is bad, but paying too little is also bad. It would be just as bad for the economy to have no minimum wage and have a multitude of people working for $3.50 an hour as it would be if we made the minimum wage everywhere $33.50 an hour.

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