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  1. #5836
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Except much of what the leftist liberal groupthink believes isnít theory. For instance, you call Universal Healthcare a theory that wonít work in reality, except itís worked literally everywhere else itís been done. Not a theory.

    Juxtapose that to trickle down economics, conservative theory that increases the poor and middle class.. Except it doesnít work (and hasnít when itís been tried). Yet that is a theory conservatives persist in pushing.


    Heck, the very subject weíre talking about (fines relative to income) isnít a theory, its being done right now in several other countries, and it seems to work well for them.

    I think the bigger problem is conservatives call anything they donít like, even if itís been proven to be effective, a theory simply because they disagree with it.
    I didn't say that but, what are the population numbers and population density in comparison where universal healthcare allegedly works?

    As I said, living in theory, not practicality will not work.

    Okay and again I ask, these fines that are allegedly working elsewhere, what is the context to population and population density?

    No, a theory is saying everyone should start a race equal and believing in every fiber of your being that is fact and shoot down anyone who injects otherwise.

    I challenge you to read a short story called Harrison Bergeron, to give you perspective on your ideology of everyone should start a race equally theory.

  2. #5837
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    I didn't say that but, what are the population numbers and population density in comparison where universal healthcare allegedly works?

    As I said, living in theory, not practicality will not work.

    Okay and again I ask, these fines that are allegedly working elsewhere, what is the context to population and population density?

    No, a theory is saying everyone should start a race equal and believing in every fiber of your being that is fact and shoot down anyone who injects otherwise.

    I challenge you to read a short story called Harrison Bergeron, to give you perspective on your ideology of everyone should start a race equally theory.
    First, whether Universal Healthcare will work is not a theory. It is working right now. So we know it can work.

    It is your theory that it won't work in the US due to population and population density. You are the one peddling the theory here, I'm the one presenting factual real world examples.

    Second, the entirety of the European Union is equal to the US in terms of both population and population density, and it works for the entirety of the European Union. So even your theory falls flat.


    I shall read the story however, always enjoy reading.

  3. #5838
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post

    I shall read the story however, always enjoy reading.
    Stop tryina act smart. [emoji57]

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  4. #5839
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, whether Universal Healthcare will work is not a theory. It is working right now. So we know it can work.

    It is your theory that it won't work in the US due to population and population density. You are the one peddling the theory here, I'm the one presenting factual real world examples.

    Second, the entirety of the European Union is equal to the US in terms of both population and population density, and it works for the entirety of the European Union. So even your theory falls flat.


    I shall read the story however, always enjoy reading.
    Here, I'll ask more simply what real world examples are you referring to, countries please.

    For both the universal healthcare and fine claims for working. I would like to know so I can analysis these countries/examples, for myself. Scale may not matter to you, but it does to me.

    It's short but I think a good read.

  5. #5840
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Here, I'll ask more simply what real world examples are you referring to, countries please.

    For both the universal healthcare and fine claims for working. I would like to know so I can analysis these countries/examples, for myself. Scale may not matter to you, but it does to me.

    It's short but I think a good read.
    Countries that have Universal Healthcare?

    Australia
    Canada
    Japan
    the UK
    France
    Germany
    Italy
    Spain
    South Korea
    Israel
    Ireland
    Austria
    Belgium
    Denmark
    Finland
    Greece
    Iceland
    Netherlands
    New Zealand
    Norway
    Portugal
    Switzerland
    Sweden


    And that isn't even close to all.

    As for population. The population of the US is 330 million. The EU is 446 million. Every member of the EU has Universal Healthcare, and citizens from any EU country can use the Universal healthcare in any other EU country they are in for free.


    The scale of the EU's healthcare is actually larger than ours would be in the US, and theirs works fine (and for way cheaper than our current system as well).

  6. #5841
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    I'm waiting on NBA's analysis before I weigh in on this.

  7. #5842
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'm waiting on NBA's analysis before I weigh in on this.
    Please, dont weigh in..[emoji854]

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  8. #5843
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Please, dont weigh in..[emoji854]

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    No surprise that my sarcasm went right over your head.

  9. #5844
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Countries that have Universal Healthcare?

    Australia
    Canada
    Japan
    the UK
    France
    Germany
    Italy
    Spain
    South Korea
    Israel
    Ireland
    Austria
    Belgium
    Denmark
    Finland
    Greece
    Iceland
    Netherlands
    New Zealand
    Norway
    Portugal
    Switzerland
    Sweden


    And that isn't even close to all.

    As for population. The population of the US is 330 million. The EU is 446 million. Every member of the EU has Universal Healthcare, and citizens from any EU country can use the Universal healthcare in any other EU country they are in for free.


    The scale of the EU's healthcare is actually larger than ours would be in the US, and theirs works fine (and for way cheaper than our current system as well).
    Appreciate you providing that, for context. I was also unaware the EU worked like that, as far as the crossing borders thing.

    So, there are for sure some road blocks in this country for the theory of universal healthcare to become reality.

    1. The cost of universal healthcare, when speaking of a country like the United States who already holds a poor GDP to debt ratio is something that has to be considered. This can be gotten around by limiting treatments that are covered or by limiting what facilities administer a treatment. By cutting physicians pay, because they are extremely overpaid but that results in fewer available physicians. Then obviously the inevitable delay of treatments or flat out denial of treatments. There has to be a compromise somewhere, a give and take, to make sure all 330+ million people who reside in the United States (citizens, illegals or otherwise) receive healthcare.

    2. A lot of these countries I'm sure are not nearly as obese as the United States is. Preventative care is huge in universal healthcare being practical. When a population like ours, requires so much speciality care, it is hardly an apples to apples comparison to other countries. I'm sure other countries take much better care of themselves outside of the universal healthcare conversation, but again I can see someone arguing chicken/egg here.

    3. Politicians and the corporate execs are so intertwined, on both sides of the aisle, that big pharma, insurance companies, medical machine suppliers literally have these politicians on their dang payroll. All these people are buddies, I coulda probably just made this number "corruption" and it woulda made the same statement. Good luck in getting career politicians to vote, to make themselves and their donors ("friends") more poor.

    I'm cool with the idea that basic healthcare needs should be free to all, I just do not believe that it is practical, given how our country is setup. [emoji1745]

    The Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress and the the Oval Office, the best they could come up with was "Obama Care"? If the theory were to become a reality, that was the time.

    Back to the original point though, thinking everyone can start a race equally isn't a practical ideology.

  10. #5845
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Appreciate you providing that, for context. I was also unaware the EU worked like that, as far as the crossing borders thing.

    So, there are for sure some road blocks in this country for the theory of universal healthcare to become reality.

    1. The cost of universal healthcare, when speaking of a country like the United States who already holds a poor GDP to debt ratio is something that has to be considered. This can be gotten around by limiting treatments that are covered or by limiting what facilities administer a treatment. By cutting physicians pay, because they are extremely overpaid but that results in fewer available physicians. Then obviously the inevitable delay of treatments or flat out denial of treatments. There has to be a compromise somewhere, a give and take, to make sure all 330+ million people who reside in the United States (citizens, illegals or otherwise) receive healthcare.

    2. A lot of these countries I'm sure are not nearly as obese as the United States is. Preventative care is huge in universal healthcare being practical. When a population like ours, requires so much speciality care, it is hardly an apples to apples comparison to other countries. I'm sure other countries take much better care of themselves outside of the universal healthcare conversation, but again I can see someone arguing chicken/egg here.

    3. Politicians and the corporate execs are so intertwined, on both sides of the aisle, that big pharma, insurance companies, medical machine suppliers literally have these politicians on their dang payroll. All these people are buddies, I coulda probably just made this number "corruption" and it woulda made the same statement. Good luck in getting career politicians to vote, to make themselves and their donors ("friends") more poor.

    I'm cool with the idea that basic healthcare needs should be free to all, I just do not believe that it is practical, given how our country is setup. [emoji1745]

    The Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress and the the Oval Office, the best they could come up with was "Obama Care"? If the theory were to become a reality, that was the time.

    Back to the original point though, thinking everyone can start a race equally isn't a practical ideology.
    1. The cost argument is an odd one considering everywhere else has managed to run universal healthcare cheaper than the US. There is literally no precedent for universal healthcare costing more than our current system.

    2. Studies show when healthcare is free people actually utilize preventative care more often, leading to a decrease in far more expensive procedures and diagnosis later. And this makes sense. How many Americans with no insurance or large co-pays forgo preventative care now because they can't afford it?

    3. You're correct. I'm talking about what we should do, not how difficult it would be to enact. There's a reason Obamacare became a markedly worse bill the moment big Pharma had their say in it: they are not looking out for our best interests.


    As to the original point, I shall read the book because whether I think it's practical to believe everyone can start a race equally, I think we should still try to ensure that. In fact it's literally a conservative motto against socialism "equality of opportunity, not equality of results".

  11. #5846
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    1. The cost argument is an odd one considering everywhere else has managed to run universal healthcare cheaper than the US. There is literally no precedent for universal healthcare costing more than our current system.

    2. Studies show when healthcare is free people actually utilize preventative care more often, leading to a decrease in far more expensive procedures and diagnosis later. And this makes sense. How many Americans with no insurance or large co-pays forgo preventative care now because they can't afford it?

    3. You're correct. I'm talking about what we should do, not how difficult it would be to enact. There's a reason Obamacare became a markedly worse bill the moment big Pharma had their say in it: they are not looking out for our best interests.


    As to the original point, I shall read the book because whether I think it's practical to believe everyone can start a race equally, I think we should still try to ensure that. In fact it's literally a conservative motto against socialism "equality of opportunity, not equality of results".
    1. Sure, in theory. But most of the countries are not dealing with same economic factors the United States is. Just for 1 minor example, their physicians do not make anywhere near as much as domestic physicians do.

    2. Again, sure chicken/egg. But preventive care isn't going to stop big Rhonda and her 8 little squirts from eating off the dollar menu 20+ times a week.

    3. I getcha but it is still a major roadblock that feeds into having to think more practically when trying address problems, instead of saying "hey, look at the rest of the world".

  12. #5847
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    1. Sure, in theory. But most of the countries are not dealing with same economic factors the United States is. Just for 1 minor example, their physicians do not make anywhere near as much as domestic physicians do.

    2. Again, sure chicken/egg. But preventive care isn't going to stop big Rhonda and her 8 little squirts from eating off the dollar menu 20+ times a week.

    3. I getcha but it is still a major roadblock that feeds into having to think more practically when trying address problems, instead of saying "hey, look at the rest of the world".
    2. I agree with you on that. We have allowed the food industry to get away with murder when it comes to what they put in our food and market us (but that is a massive separate issue).

    3. I think it's prudent to take good ideas from other countries and use them if they're good. I also don't think that we should take any single idea from another country and apply it here. But this isn't an example of universal healthcare working once somewhere, this is universal healthcare working pretty much everywhere else on earth. Not a single country has ever converted to universal healthcare and thought "that was a bad idea, we should switch back". It is beloved in every country it's applied in. If you were a politician running in any of those countries, and you tried to run on abolishing universal healthcare, you would never win anything.

  13. #5848
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    2. I agree with you on that. We have allowed the food industry to get away with murder when it comes to what they put in our food and market us (but that is a massive separate issue).

    3. I think it's prudent to take good ideas from other countries and use them if they're good. I also don't think that we should take any single idea from another country and apply it here. But this isn't an example of universal healthcare working once somewhere, this is universal healthcare working pretty much everywhere else on earth. Not a single country has ever converted to universal healthcare and thought "that was a bad idea, we should switch back". It is beloved in every country it's applied in. If you were a politician running in any of those countries, and you tried to run on abolishing universal healthcare, you would never win anything.
    2. Exactly, is it a separate conversation, I agree. But that talking point, can still factor into how it strains the healthcare system. A factor that other countries may not have to worry about at all or is severely a lesser issue.

    3. I'm with ya, use other countries ideas but when they come to practical implementation of said ideas, the 330 million people has to be factored in, especially when 36% of the population is obese and an additional 33% are overweight. Those obviously lead to other issues as well. Our debt to GDP of 108% obviously has to be factored in too, because I'm sure percentage wise the USA has a higher percentage of non contributors to society than elsewhere.

  14. #5849
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    2. Exactly, is it a separate conversation, I agree. But that talking point, can still factor into how it strains the healthcare system. A factor that other countries may not have to worry about at all or is severely a lesser issue.

    3. I'm with ya, use other countries ideas but when they come to practical implementation of said ideas, the 330 million people has to be factored in, especially when 36% of the population is obese and an additional 33% are overweight. Those obviously lead to other issues as well. Our debt to GDP of 108% obviously has to be factored in too, because I'm sure percentage wise the USA has a higher percentage of non contributors to society than elsewhere.
    This actually makes me believe we need universal healthcare even more than other countries.

  15. #5850
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This actually makes me believe we need universal healthcare even more than other countries.
    That was just off a quick Google search, so idk how accurate it is, but I could easily believe that over 2/3 of the country is overweight.

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