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  1. #1696
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    No. You are wrong regarding Lincoln. The values displayed by the Republican Party, including Lincoln, are much in line with the values displayed today. While Lincoln was much more pro federal govt than modern day republicans, it was at a time when the federal govt was extremely small in comparison to today. But as you stated, times change. Where they are similar is the fact that the party under Lincoln was extremely pro “big business” and religious. The entire north was fueled by big businesses. Sound familiar?
    You mistake the word values with policy. While as we both agree that times change, it's hard to put into perspective fully how he would fall on policy. I'd imagine (As you kind of insinuated yourself) that in todays republic, from a policy perspective, that he would fall in-line with todays Rs on some things and todays Ds on some things. Maybe that leans slightly towards Rs, but that's interpretation. But when I speak on values, I mean as a human being. His values, his morals, his ethics and his principals. That undoubtedly would align with today's Democratic party. I would have to imagine that what we once called the 'Party of Lincoln' would be absolutely unrecognizable to the man himself today and that he would not align with Trumps Republican party.

  2. #1697
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    Let me just point out that this is the EXACT reason that Republicans recently polled to think that Trump was a better President than Lincoln. Because the parties have DIFFERENT values now than they did back then. Make no mistake, Lincoln was a progressive. Lincoln believed in immigration, equality, women's rights. He was pro-government, federal taxes, funding public education, etc. So his policy & his values align greatly with the Democratic party.

    And let us not forget, Lincoln was not always in the Republican party. He actually was a member of the Whig party, before it was no more. That party aligns with some of the core fundamental values that Lincoln had as well as todays Democrats. He did not even run as a Republican for Senate... he was forced to the party despite fundamental disagreements on certain issues w/ the party. Once again... different times.

    History is history though and the GOP has every right to hold onto pride of the great things that Lincoln did. But lets not get it twisted, Abe Lincoln would most certainly NOT be a member of todays GOP. He would be undoubtedly aligned with the Democratic party of today.

  3. #1698
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Because I can’t/won’t deny individuals (in both parties) have said things that were definitely racially insensitive. There’s a difference between that and the racism across the Democratic Party before the civil rights movement.

    You should really look into the history of the party you support. Maybe ask them why they named their meeting place in the Capitol building after a high ranking klans member. Robert Byrd...
    Come on now, no one is denying the democrat past. But most of us have grow up under a FDR's new Deal democrats before the wall street democrat took over under Clinton. This is the history we draw from and you know that. There is no Robert Byrd fraction existing in the democrat party nowadays. This right wing talking point will only fly at a Trump rally.

    Why would Blacks follow the ex-dixiecrats, David Dukes'KKK, and White nationalist into the republican party?
    Last edited by WES445; 12-05-2019 at 01:29 AM.

  4. #1699
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Come on now, no one is denying the democrat past. But most of us have grow up under a FDR's new Deal democrats before the wall street democrat took over under Clinton. This is the history we draw from and you know that. There is no Robert Byrd fraction existing in the democrat party nowadays. This right wing talking point will only fly at a Trump rally.

    Why would Blacks follow the ex-dixiecrats, David Dukes'KKK, and White nationalist into the republican party?
    This whole “party switch” myth amazes me. There were 13 states that were considered part of the Jim Crow/Deep South. That’s 26 senators if my math is correct. Of those 26 senators, only 1, Strom Thurmond, switched parties. Meanwhile, known racists like Byrd remained in their seats until their death. The Republicans didn’t hold a seat advantage in the deep south until the mid 90s and they didn’t dominate those southern states until 2010, almost 50 years after this supposed switch. I agree, black people began voting democrat in presidential elections beginning with FDR/new deal and then almost completely with JFK/civil rights. But that doesn’t erase the souther Democrats who remained in control until the mid 90s.

    Ram asked me a question regarding Republican policies helping black people. I would like to ask, which democrat policies, which have been tried in major cities for decades, have helped black people? This question isn’t meant for opinion or speculation on what we think. We all have opinions. I want facts on how democrat policies have helped black people from 1960 until now.

  5. #1700
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    This whole “party switch” myth amazes me. There were 13 states that were considered part of the Jim Crow/Deep South. That’s 26 senators if my math is correct. Of those 26 senators, only 1, Strom Thurmond, switched parties. Meanwhile, known racists like Byrd remained in their seats until their death. The Republicans didn’t hold a seat advantage in the deep south until the mid 90s and they didn’t dominate those southern states until 2010, almost 50 years after this supposed switch. I agree, black people began voting democrat in presidential elections beginning with FDR/new deal and then almost completely with JFK/civil rights. But that doesn’t erase the souther Democrats who remained in control until the mid 90s.

    Ram asked me a question regarding Republican policies helping black people. I would like to ask, which democrat policies, which have been tried in major cities for decades, have helped black people? This question isn’t meant for opinion or speculation on what we think. We all have opinions. I want facts on how democrat policies have helped black people from 1960 until now.
    It's a fact, not a myth. Before the 1960's, the Republicans were liberal and the Democrats were conservative. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, the supporters of the Democratic party began jumping ship and began supporting the Republican party. Richard Nixon's "southern strategy" only made that transition become permanent.
    Last edited by dodgerdave; 12-05-2019 at 09:01 AM.

    Future Hall of Shamers:
    (1) B.A.L.C.O. Barroids (2) Mark McJuicer (3) Jose Chem-seco (4) Rafael Palmeiroids (5) Ken Chem-initi (6) Jason Gi-andro (7) Ryan Fraud (8) Muscle Melk (9) Woman-Ram (10) Shammy Sosa (11) Roger Clear-mens (12) A-Roid (13) Ryan HGHoward

  6. #1701
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgerdave View Post
    It's a fact, not a myth. Before the 1960's, the Republicans were liberal and the Democrats were conservative. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, the supporters of the Democratic party began jumping ship and began supporting the Republican party. Richard Nixon's "southern strategy" only made that transition become permanent.
    The southern strategy... this again is part of the myth of some party switch. In order to be competitive in the south, Nixon had to appeal to the racists and their ideals in the south. For starters, Nixon didn’t even really win the Deep South in 68. However, Eisenhower, who supported brown v board and sent troops to Little Rock to enforce segregation, won the Deep South in 52 and basically swept it in 56. Meanwhile, Carter swept the south in 76. It seems like the south was a bit confused. And as I said, the so called racists who “switched” parties continued to support democrats in the house and senate until the mid 90s. These southern racists seem to move really slowly.

  7. #1702
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post

    Ram asked me a question regarding Republican policies helping black people. I would like to ask, which democrat policies, which have been tried in major cities for decades, have helped black people? This question isn’t meant for opinion or speculation on what we think. We all have opinions. I want facts on how democrat policies have helped black people from 1960 until now.

    If the republican party is so great, then why is your party shrinking? Every election after 2016, the republicans have been taking it on the chin. Losing here, losing there. They are losing independents, cross over democrats and some of their base. How many Republicans are retiring or just leaving the congress? I don't see a mass of young kids flocking to the republicans banner like they did during the Reagan administration.

    How many Trump advisors and cabinet members have gone to jailed, been fired or resign for misconduct, or just got tired of this administration policies?


    Past democrat failures, real and or dreamed up by republicans, don't compare to the stinker that the republicans are pinching out right now. Before our eyes. Your last two republican presidents have been really bad dude and that is no joke.

    Keep riding that Trump Train and thinking this is all going to end well for the republican party in 2020.
    Last edited by WES445; 12-05-2019 at 12:47 PM.

  8. #1703
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    joeyc is doing exactly what todays GOP party does. ignore facts, changes subjects and spreads false lies/narratives. it's a shame honestly

  9. #1704
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    If the republican party is so great, then why is your party shrinking? Every election after 2016, the republicans have been taking it on the chin. Losing here, losing there. They are losing independents, cross over democrats and some of their base. How many Republicans are retiring or just leaving the congress? I don't see a mass of young kids flocking to the republicans banner like they did during the Reagan administration.

    How many Trump advisors and cabinet members have gone to jailed, been fired or resign for misconduct, or just got tired of this administration policies?


    Past democrat failures, real and or dreamed up by republicans, don't compare to the stinker that the republicans are pinching out right now. Before our eyes. Your last two republican presidents have been really bad dude and that is no joke.

    Keep riding that Trump Train and thinking this is all going to end well for the republican party in 2020.
    These are the types of posts I don’t really get into. This seems to be very “Us vs Them” in the “democrat vs Republican” spectrum. As if they are yours or my “teams.” I’m not a fan of either party. I vote based on the candidate, regardless of party. I don’t support trump. I didn’t vote for him. I believe the metrics we use to measure a presidents success are good under trump. He deserves “credit” for that if for nothing more than being in the right place at the right time.

    My point about the democrats was to first point out their history as not favorable towards minorities. IMO, although I believe it’s an object one, the Democrats policies which they champion today, have failed minorities in large cities in the US. I believe abortion, while it shouldn’t be illegal, was meant in part to eradicate the black population. I believe their democrat economic policies- welfare and such are designed to keep poor/black people on the govt payroll and not allow black people to rise above certain economic conditions. Democrats believe this will keep votes coming.

    As I stated before, I believe Republicans have failed to format a message that can be clearly communicated to inner cities. Even though I believe some of that message will play well in those cities. I believe Republican/conservative policies, specifically on the economy, are best suited to help poor people in those cities. IMO, Republicans view black people as people, while democrats view them somehow as less than and someone that needs taken care of.

    I said before that I believe Trump will win more of the black vote than he did 2016, which was already more than Romney, McCain or bush had in the previous years. Trump is a president/candidate that is similar to Obama in that he has appeal across the board. They are sort of like the Taylor Swifts in that their personas “cross-over” different genres.

  10. #1705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greet View Post
    joeyc is doing exactly what todays GOP party does. ignore facts, changes subjects and spreads false lies/narratives. it's a shame honestly
    I’m going to let my hair grow out so I can do a trump comb over too.... orange man going to get you....

  11. #1706
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    The southern strategy... this again is part of the myth of some party switch. In order to be competitive in the south, Nixon had to appeal to the racists and their ideals in the south. For starters, Nixon didn’t even really win the Deep South in 68. However, Eisenhower, who supported brown v board and sent troops to Little Rock to enforce segregation, won the Deep South in 52 and basically swept it in 56. Meanwhile, Carter swept the south in 76. It seems like the south was a bit confused. And as I said, the so called racists who “switched” parties continued to support democrats in the house and senate until the mid 90s. These southern racists seem to move really slowly.
    One thing you all are missing is that before Johnson/Nixon, the two parties were themselves split into liberal and conservative factions. In effect, there were four parties: liberal democrats (Roosevelt and Stevenson would be good examples active on the national scene) and conservative democrats (mostly from the south — Wallace, Thurman, Eastland come to mind); liberal Republicans (Dewey, Percy, Rockefeller) and conservative Republicans (Taft, Goldwater).

    After civil rights, when southerners finally got over their century-long hatred of the “Party of Lincoln” (which they hated for some very obvious reasons), they came to realize that Barry Goldwater and his crew represented their beliefs much more than did that turncoat Lyndon Johnson and his merry band. It took time, but the metamorphosis was essentially complete by the end of the Reagan years.

    Sure, there are some outliers, but these days there is precious little policy debate within the parties — or I should say that there is a lot less than there used to be.

  12. #1707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    One thing you all are missing is that before Johnson/Nixon, the two parties were themselves split into liberal and conservative factions. In effect, there were four parties: liberal democrats (Roosevelt and Stevenson would be good examples active on the national scene) and conservative democrats (mostly from the south — Wallace, Thurman, Eastland come to mind); liberal Republicans (Dewey, Percy, Rockefeller) and conservative Republicans (Taft, Goldwater).

    After civil rights, when southerners finally got over their century-long hatred of the “Party of Lincoln” (which they hated for some very obvious reasons), they came to realize that Barry Goldwater and his crew represented their beliefs much more than did that turncoat Lyndon Johnson and his merry band. It took time, but the metamorphosis was essentially complete by the end of the Reagan years.

    Sure, there are some outliers, but these days there is precious little policy debate within the parties — or I should say that there is a lot less than there used to be.
    I agree with you on Goldwater. However, you are using revisionist history when attempting to place the labels of “liberal” and “conservative” on different aspects of the parties in order to distance one party from the atrocities committed under their name. Furthermore, the Republicans did not gain a majority in those souther states until the mid 90s. And the governors of those states were dominated by democrats as well. While the president voting in those southern states flip flopped over those decades.... Eisenhower, Kennedy, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc, the senator, congress and governors remained democrats. While I don’t typically give the racist south “credit,” moving slow and patience doesn’t seem to be their strong suit. They typically act quickly and swiftly.

  13. #1708
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I agree with you on Goldwater. However, you are using revisionist history when attempting to place the labels of “liberal” and “conservative” on different aspects of the parties in order to distance one party from the atrocities committed under their name. Furthermore, the Republicans did not gain a majority in those souther states until the mid 90s. And the governors of those states were dominated by democrats as well. While the president voting in those southern states flip flopped over those decades.... Eisenhower, Kennedy, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc, the senator, congress and governors remained democrats. While I don’t typically give the racist south “credit,” moving slow and patience doesn’t seem to be their strong suit. They typically act quickly and swiftly.
    I may not have been clear, but none of what I wrote was in service of trying to “distance one party from the atrocities committed under their name.” That’s your thing.

    As for when the shift finalized — the end of the Reagan years — I was correct as well.

    However, some have made an argument that in fact the shift began earlier than Johnson (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...0s_118172.html ).

    That the Southern senators, Congresspersons, Governors were not securely Republican until 1994, shows a reasonable lag that reflected the shift. Slow moving yes.
    Last edited by Crovash; 12-06-2019 at 11:05 AM.

  14. #1709
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    These are the types of posts I don’t really get into. This seems to be very “Us vs Them” in the “democrat vs Republican” spectrum. As if they are yours or my “teams.” I’m not a fan of either party. I vote based on the candidate, regardless of party. I don’t support trump. I didn’t vote for him. I believe the metrics we use to measure a presidents success are good under trump. He deserves “credit” for that if for nothing more than being in the right place at the right time.

    My point about the democrats was to first point out their history as not favorable towards minorities. IMO, although I believe it’s an object one, the Democrats policies which they champion today, have failed minorities in large cities in the US. I believe abortion, while it shouldn’t be illegal, was meant in part to eradicate the black population. I believe their democrat economic policies- welfare and such are designed to keep poor/black people on the govt payroll and not allow black people to rise above certain economic conditions. Democrats believe this will keep votes coming.

    As I stated before, I believe Republicans have failed to format a message that can be clearly communicated to inner cities. Even though I believe some of that message will play well in those cities. I believe Republican/conservative policies, specifically on the economy, are best suited to help poor people in those cities. IMO, Republicans view black people as people, while democrats view them somehow as less than and someone that needs taken care of.

    I said before that I believe Trump will win more of the black vote than he did 2016, which was already more than Romney, McCain or bush had in the previous years. Trump is a president/candidate that is similar to Obama in that he has appeal across the board. They are sort of like the Taylor Swifts in that their personas “cross-over” different genres.
    LOLOL, so the disconnect between the republicans and Blacks is a communication problem, not the effects the republican policies had on poor and middle-class people in general? All a miss understanding while the democrats are just bad people who brainwashed minorities to hate republicans and love welfare?

    Whoa, I thought us progressive were suppose be way out there.

    First of all, where were those conservative beliefs (which the poor are to benefit from) when the Trump congress passes a Tax cut that mainly benefited the rich and add another 1.5 trillion to the national debt? Then turn around and say we must cut social programs that benefit the poor and middle class because of the debt they just raise to give tax relief to the rich or job creators?

    Get off the Train, dude, you are talking one thing and your party is doing the exact opposite. The disconnect is between your words and your handlers actions.
    Last edited by WES445; 12-06-2019 at 01:16 PM.

  15. #1710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greet View Post
    joeyc is doing exactly what todays GOP party does. ignore facts, changes subjects and spreads false lies/narratives. it's a shame honestly
    He, the republican party and Trump are made for each other. After Nov. 2020, they will have a lot of alone time together .
    Last edited by WES445; 12-06-2019 at 01:26 PM.

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