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  1. #4051
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Slavery was common place when the founding fathers owned slaves as well. Yet we condemn them for it.

    As I said several times, perhaps itís best if we donít judge historical and religious figures since we didnít live in that time and we are looking at them with advanced morality.
    See my post above and maybe, just maybe, youíll get a clue as to why one might condemn some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    But some insist on judging our founding fathers for their imperfections in catering to a practice we have deemed abhorrent, therefore we must judge all including Muhammad. If you want to add the Bible to that, be my guess. Ban all bibles. Ban all religion.
    Some ideas very much worth considering embedded herein.

  2. #4052
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    If you want to judge Christianity today, please do so based on the New Testament, books written since Jesus' time on earth. i.e. In Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthians he wrote if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away and the new has come.

    After all, prior to Christ, Christianity didn't exist. The belief was in God, Christ had not yet come.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  3. #4053
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    If you want to judge Christianity today, please do so based on the New Testament, books written since Jesus' time on earth. i.e. In Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthians he wrote if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away and the new has come.

    After all, prior to Christ, Christianity didn't exist. The belief was in God, Christ had not yet come.
    Even then, Jesus gave advice on how to treat slaves.

  4. #4054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    See my post above and maybe, just maybe, youíll get a clue as to why one might condemn some of them.



    Some ideas very much worth considering embedded herein.
    The morality of slavery was conflicted and yes, many felt as though it was morally abhorrent. However, it was legal and without it, many plantations would cease to exist.

    Itís like iPhones. We know several companies exploit cheap labor in China. The morality of this is conflicted at best. Yet we still but the products. Perhaps, one day, people will consider us immoral for owning cellphones...

  5. #4055
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    The morality of slavery was conflicted and yes, many felt as though it was morally abhorrent. However, it was legal and without it, many plantations would cease to exist.
    What do you call someone who knows what he is doing is wrong ó immoral even ó and rails against it in public, and yet continues to do it?

    Conflicted?

    Hardly.

    Add that they did it to keep their plantations, and itís even worse.

  6. #4056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    What do you call someone who knows what he is doing is wrong ó immoral even ó and rails against it in public, and yet continues to do it?

    Conflicted?

    Hardly.

    Add that they did it to keep their plantations, and itís even worse.
    They did it because it was legal and commonplace. Thereís a difference between morality and legality. Morality is subjective. Itís not objective like something being legal or not. Itís like killing baby Hitler. You may feel this would be a moral obligation but it would be illegal.

  7. #4057
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Even then, Jesus gave advice on how to treat slaves.
    How so? The whole reason he was born was to free EVERYone.
    Slavery, as whatever happened in prior to his coming, was the choice of man, not the plan of God. It was one of the very reasons Jesus came in the first place.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #4058
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    How so? The whole reason he was born was to free EVERYone.
    Slavery, as whatever happened in prior to his coming, was the choice of man, not the plan of God. It was one of the very reasons Jesus came in the first place.
    The New Testament has several passages that mention slaves being dutiful to their masters, and masters being nice to their slaves. The New Testament certainly wasnít against slavery.

    As for Jesus coming to free everyone, many are able to hold to divergent views simultaneously. The United States is and was ďThe Land of the FreeĒ despite literally having slavery...

  9. #4059
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    They did it because it was legal and commonplace. Thereís a difference between morality and legality. Morality is subjective. Itís not objective like something being legal or not. Itís like killing baby Hitler. You may feel this would be a moral obligation but it would be illegal.
    I know it was legal. As did they. But just because it was legal, it does not mean they had to do it, especially if they believed in their hearts ó for the record, I do not think they really did ó that it was immoral.

  10. #4060
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The New Testament has several passages that mention slaves being dutiful to their masters, and masters being nice to their slaves. The New Testament certainly wasnít against slavery.

    As for Jesus coming to free everyone, many are able to hold to divergent views simultaneously. The United States is and was ďThe Land of the FreeĒ despite literally having slavery...
    Jesus' coming didn't immediately end what man was doing. Do you mean verses like "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." Again, not written to validate slavery, but to acknowledge some still owned slaves, but should still be treated well.

    There's only so far I'm going here in a non-religion forum.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #4061
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Jesus' coming didn't immediately end what man was doing. Do you mean verses like "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." Again, not written to validate slavery, but to acknowledge some still owned slaves, but should still be treated well.

    There's only so far I'm going here in a non-religion forum.
    Is it your contention that despite never once denouncing slavery as wrong or saying it was bad you believe the New Testament says (or believes) this to be the case?

    Iím trying to approach this from the opposite angle: what evidence is there that The Bible or Jesus believed Slavery to be wrong?

  12. #4062
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    A fine and thoughtful discussion, really, but can we take it to the religion forum? Politics get plenty hot on their own.

  13. #4063
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Slavery was common place when the founding fathers owned slaves as well. Yet we condemn them for it.

    As I said several times, perhaps itís best if we donít judge historical and religious figures since we didnít live in that time and we are looking at them with advanced morality. But some insist on judging our founding fathers for their imperfections in catering to a practice we have deemed abhorrent, therefore we must judge all including Muhammad. If you want to add the Bible to that, be my guess. Ban all bibles. Ban all religion.
    Exactly this. If you judge historical figures, judge them on the time they lived, not in yours. That's all I've been doing in replying to Nasty, to show his hypocrisy towards the founders and not Muhammad.

  14. #4064
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    Exactly this. If you judge historical figures, judge them on the time they lived, not in yours. That's all I've been doing in replying to Nasty, to show his hypocrisy towards the founders and not Muhammad.
    I think we are, they lived in very different times.

  15. #4065
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    Exactly this. If you judge historical figures, judge them on the time they lived, not in yours. That's all I've been doing in replying to Nasty, to show his hypocrisy towards the founders and not Muhammad.
    I have no dog in the Muhammad fight, but I do feel that it is fair to judge some of our founding fathers, even with their own writings.

    I have noted that in their own time in history some of our founding fathers did not walk their own talk. George Mason publically (and again, in his own time) condemned slavery as immoral and yet retained all of his slaves ó ostensibly because he needed them in order to maintain his lifestyle. Jefferson too. And others.

    This is not applying our own moral standards; it is questioning theirs.

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