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  1. #1
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    Dwayne Casey new head coach of pistons


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    Worst kept secret ever.

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    Very meh about it overall. I guess it doesn't matter much since he will serve as a stopgap anyway.

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    Yeah, got a middling Tor team to consistently under-achieve in the playoffs against LeBron. Hell, we got swept with a far less talented team two years ago. One of the things I'm concerned about is - IIRC - is that only last year did he sorta loosen the reigns on offense. Prior, he was a pretty strict X/O guy on offense, running specific sets. I think we need to move up and down the court a bit more, with Blake on a wing and a pull up 3 from Luke or Bullock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lizardking13 View Post
    Very meh about it overall. I guess it doesn't matter much since he will serve as a stopgap anyway.
    On a 5 year deal though, that seems more than a stop gap unless they want to pay him the money in 3 years to be let go.
    Last edited by LionsFan..LOL; 06-11-2018 at 01:08 PM.

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    Obviously interested in the money side. I don't remember reading where he was being highly sought out by any other team. I could see a 4 year with a team option. 5 years seems a bit long. Plus, it will be interesting to see who he is allowed to bring in as assistants. The pistons will have some say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LionsFan..LOL View Post
    On a 5 year deal though, that seems more than a stop gap unless they want to pay him the money in 3 years to be let go.
    He'll get fired in 3 years. Book it. Gores will not be happy when we are still a meh team. This probably won't even be Casey's fault. He's defiantly a decent coach. Probably more than decent. Toronto wasn't good before he got there. Coaches are just the easiest things to fire and by that time we may be able to move Griffin. Then, we can get a new guy or an analytics driven guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lizardking13 View Post
    He'll get fired in 3 years. Book it. Gores will not be happy when we are still a meh team. This probably won't even be Casey's fault. He's defiantly a decent coach. Probably more than decent. Toronto wasn't good before he got there. Coaches are just the easiest things to fire and by that time we may be able to move Griffin. Then, we can get a new guy or an analytics driven guy.
    Well, his next two years are pretty much "with who we got." There's no cap flexibility, unless we take on a bad contract somehow with the use of Boban's trade exception or some other derivative.

    After 3 years, Andre would come off the books and unless we resign Jackson - he'd be gone the year before. For all you guys who say tear it down and rebuild, that'd be the year. But there is no Philly model anymore give the changes in the draft rules.

    Bottom line is: this team will only improve 1) people stay healthy and 2) growth of Stanley, Henry and Luke - barring something nobody sees coming.

    It could be worse, look at Clev. I Bron doesn't come back, they're probably a lottery team that's over the cap. They'e go 91M tied up with Love, Thompson, JR, G. Hill, Clarkson & Korver.
    Last edited by markbutter; 06-11-2018 at 01:55 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbutter View Post
    Well, his next two years are pretty much "with who we got." There's no cap flexibility, unless we take on a bad contract somehow with the use of Boban's trade exception or some other derivative.

    After 3 years, Andre would come off the books and unless we resign Jackson - he'd be gone the year before. For all you guys who say tear it down and rebuild, that'd be the year. But there is no Philly model anymore give the changes in the draft rules.

    Bottom line is: this team will only improve 1) people stay healthy and 2) growth of Stanley, Henry and Luke - barring something nobody sees coming.

    It could be worse, look at Clev. I Bron doesn't come back, they're probably a lottery team that's over the cap. They'e go 91M tied up with Love, Thompson, JR, G. Hill, Clarkson & Korver.
    Exactly, I think you are getting to the reason I think he'll be gone after 3 years. 2 years "with who we got" and we will probably be okay. I can see this team getting to the second round of the playoffs, but nothing more. Then, there will be a year of "getting Casey's guys" and...we will probably still not be able to make it out of the second round(of course, could be wrong, just think it's likely) then after we don't get it done with "Casey's guys" I think he gets fired.


    All that said, I don't want this to sound too negative. Casey will develop our players. Casey knows how to run a system that relies more on 3s (see last season in Tor). Players like Casey...Players play hard for Casey. I think we will improve just not enough for it to be "Championship-esk".

    EDIT: BTW I don't think the minor changes to the draft will stop the tank-fests that happen. I honestly still see teams doing that next year and on...until they completely make tanking worthless.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizardking13 View Post
    Exactly, I think you are getting to the reason I think he'll be gone after 3 years. 2 years "with who we got" and we will probably be okay. I can see this team getting to the second round of the playoffs, but nothing more. Then, there will be a year of "getting Casey's guys" and...we will probably still not be able to make it out of the second round(of course, could be wrong, just think it's likely) then after we don't get it done with "Casey's guys" I think he gets fired.


    All that said, I don't want this to sound too negative. Casey will develop our players. Casey knows how to run a system that relies more on 3s (see last season in Tor). Players like Casey...Players play hard for Casey. I think we will improve just not enough for it to be "Championship-esk".

    EDIT: BTW I don't think the minor changes to the draft will stop the tank-fests that happen. I honestly still see teams doing that next year and on...until they completely make tanking worthless.
    Can't disagree more:

    1 - the new tank rules will prevent the Philly model. There's always - as best - 1 or a max of 2 guys who can be "franchise changing players" within the draft. At least as rated as such. Sure, there's a Donovan Mitchell (looks like one so far) and the ultimate Micheal Jordan - picked 3rd, but to my knowledge there hasn't been "pick one of the three" franchise players and you can't miss in this draft. The top - bottom - 4 teams will now have equal chances at the top pick. There was always the bounce of the ping pong ball, but going tanking for 2-4 years and getting the number 1 pick is much more difficult now - even in just one draft.

    2 - Casey's guys. These are "Casey's guys." If he didn't want these guys, he shouldn't have signed on. I doubt Gores is saying to himself - as he spoke to Casey and having just traded for Blake and if he wants to add anyone to put us over the hump and lux cap tax - "hey, know what? If it doesn't work out in two years, and I bring in guys for Casey's 3 year and it doesn't work out - I'll fire him." Management, Owners don't think that way. If that was the case, who and why would the hire matter if that's the plan?

    I think with some good health, and some growth internally, we're a 4-6 seed. I'm not completely sold on Philly, Mia, Milw, certainly not Clev if LeBron doesn't comeback. The two locks I think are Tor & Bos, with Bos being the best, even if LeBron does return and they get back a healthy Irving and Hayward. There are certainly resign player decisions for those teams, but having a core of a healthy Jackson, Blake and Dre is comparable to many of the other teams. The difference is - we probably need more out of those three than most of the other 3 need out of their "big 3" because of their supporting cast. That's why our internal growth has to be max.

    We can run a 3 system - and by default you almost have to lean that way in today's NBA, but if we don't have 3 point shooters - its not much of a system. And that was SVGs plan the last two years and particularly this year. I think that's why the decision was made to draft Luke vs. Mitchell.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbutter View Post
    Can't disagree more:

    1 - the new tank rules will prevent the Philly model. There's always - as best - 1 or a max of 2 guys who can be "franchise changing players" within the draft. At least as rated as such. Sure, there's a Donovan Mitchell (looks like one so far) and the ultimate Micheal Jordan - picked 3rd, but to my knowledge there hasn't been "pick one of the three" franchise players and you can't miss in this draft. The top - bottom - 4 teams will now have equal chances at the top pick. There was always the bounce of the ping pong ball, but going tanking for 2-4 years and getting the number 1 pick is much more difficult now - even in just one draft.

    2 - Casey's guys. These are "Casey's guys." If he didn't want these guys, he shouldn't have signed on. I doubt Gores is saying to himself - as he spoke to Casey and having just traded for Blake and if he wants to add anyone to put us over the hump and lux cap tax - "hey, know what? If it doesn't work out in two years, and I bring in guys for Casey's 3 year and it doesn't work out - I'll fire him." Management, Owners don't think that way. If that was the case, who and why would the hire matter if that's the plan?

    I think with some good health, and some growth internally, we're a 4-6 seed. I'm not completely sold on Philly, Mia, Milw, certainly not Clev if LeBron doesn't comeback. The two locks I think are Tor & Bos, with Bos being the best, even if LeBron does return and they get back a healthy Irving and Hayward. There are certainly resign player decisions for those teams, but having a core of a healthy Jackson, Blake and Dre is comparable to many of the other teams. The difference is - we probably need more out of those three than most of the other 3 need out of their "big 3" because of their supporting cast. That's why our internal growth has to be max.

    We can run a 3 system - and by default you almost have to lean that way in today's NBA, but if we don't have 3 point shooters - its not much of a system. And that was SVGs plan the last two years and particularly this year. I think that's why the decision was made to draft Luke vs. Mitchell.
    1. Absolutely! But why will the new rules stop teams from trying to put themselves in the best position to get that number 1 pick? The bottom 3 teams now get 14% chance at the number 1 pick. Then it goes down from 4-10 all the way to 3%. There will be teams competing to be in the bottom 3. Only way to actually stop tanking is to completely revamp the drafting process...which won't happen in the next 3 years.

    2. They aren't Casey's guys. He didn't pick them. He didn't help mold this team in any way shape or form. He is taking over someone else's work. My point here is that once he gets to the point where he and the new GM hand sign players there is really no criticism that will stick to him. You will hear things like "Well Casey didn't have much of a choice what players to use" or "he was stuck with a whale of a contract thanks to SVG". These statements are not end all be all, but I can promise you that they will be made.

    Again, I think we make the playoffs. We possibly get to the second round...but in a few years that level of mediocrity won't be enough and I think Casey will get canned just like he did in Toronto.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizardking13 View Post
    1. Absolutely! But why will the new rules stop teams from trying to put themselves in the best position to get that number 1 pick? The bottom 3 teams now get 14% chance at the number 1 pick. Then it goes down from 4-10 all the way to 3%. There will be teams competing to be in the bottom 3. Only way to actually stop tanking is to completely revamp the drafting process...which won't happen in the next 3 years.

    2. They aren't Casey's guys. He didn't pick them. He didn't help mold this team in any way shape or form. He is taking over someone else's work. My point here is that once he gets to the point where he and the new GM hand sign players there is really no criticism that will stick to him. You will hear things like "Well Casey didn't have much of a choice what players to use" or "he was stuck with a whale of a contract thanks to SVG". These statements are not end all be all, but I can promise you that they will be made.

    Again, I think we make the playoffs. We possibly get to the second round...but in a few years that level of mediocrity won't be enough and I think Casey will get canned just like he did in Toronto.
    Having the worst record in the past gave you much better odds of getting the number one pick. IIRC, basically a 25% chance. Now you have a 14% chance. Now ripple that over several drafts. Having the worst record like the sixers for a couple of years gave you a 25% chance at the number one pick, twice. Now you'll have the chance at the number one pick 14% twice. So it's basically gone from 1 in 4 to 1 in 7. I understand that if you're in the bottom three, you have a chance to land the #1 pick at basically 33% - of of 3 teams with a 14% chance. But I just don't see how Gores agrees to allow that to happen.

    Sure, there will be teams that will tank. But play this out. Let's say Det still has Blake and two other above average guys in year 4. Along with a couple of starters. One being Luke. Depending on the it folds out, I don't think that's a bottom 3 team. Just spit balling here. And I do think that if we're going along at maybe conference semifinals or finals in year 3 (at the end of Dre's contract), he's resigned. I don't think Gores throws in the towel. Thus, tanking doesn't become an issue.

    Casey's guys. In reality, I agree - in so far as it's typically the "GMs" guys versue the coach, with SVG and two others who hold dual titles. But in reality, Casey signed onto this job. You think there's any less pressure to win with this group than some other? You really think we stink up the joint and Casey goes to Gores and says "Hey, these aren't my guys" is really going to matter to Gores? The purpose of interviewing would be to listen to Casey and others say "how he would maximize this group" versus - "I think we need to bring in a bunch of others." There will be tweaks, but the whole coaching search was in short: "Let me tell you how I can maximize this talent better than SVG did."

    I do think SVC began to wear on people just he did in Orl. After a certain point, players tuned him out. And it didn't help that he came across at the beginning of camp with high praise for Henry, said Luke's D was not as bad as feared and then didn't play them that much for the first half of the season. He was coaching - and grasping - for anything because he knew he was on a short leash.
    Last edited by markbutter; 06-11-2018 at 07:02 PM.

  13. #13
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    whatever happens, happens

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbutter View Post
    Having the worst record in the past gave you much better odds of getting the number one pick. IIRC, basically a 25% chance. Now you have a 14% chance. Now ripple that over several drafts. Having the worst record like the sixers for a couple of years gave you a 25% chance at the number one pick, twice. Now you'll have the chance at the number one pick 14% twice. So it's basically gone from 1 in 4 to 1 in 7. I understand that if you're in the bottom three, you have a chance to land the #1 pick at basically 33% - of of 3 teams with a 14% chance. But I just don't see how Gores agrees to allow that to happen.

    Sure, there will be teams that will tank. But play this out. Let's say Det still has Blake and two other above average guys in year 4. Along with a couple of starters. One being Luke. Depending on the it folds out, I don't think that's a bottom 3 team. Just spit balling here. And I do think that if we're going along at maybe conference semifinals or finals in year 3 (at the end of Dre's contract), he's resigned. I don't think Gores throws in the towel. Thus, tanking doesn't become an issue.

    Casey's guys. In reality, I agree - in so far as it's typically the "GMs" guys versue the coach, with SVG and two others who hold dual titles. But in reality, Casey signed onto this job. You think there's any less pressure to win with this group than some other? You really think we stink up the joint and Casey goes to Gores and says "Hey, these aren't my guys" is really going to matter to Gores? The purpose of interviewing would be to listen to Casey and others say "how he would maximize this group" versus - "I think we need to bring in a bunch of others." There will be tweaks, but the whole coaching search was in short: "Let me tell you how I can maximize this talent better than SVG did."

    I do think SVC began to wear on people just he did in Orl. After a certain point, players tuned him out. And it didn't help that he came across at the beginning of camp with high praise for Henry, said Luke's D was not as bad as feared and then didn't play them that much for the first half of the season. He was coaching - and grasping - for anything because he knew he was on a short leash.
    I don't think we will tank, mostly because of the stars that we have. But I DO think that we SHOULD tank. Otherwise we just sit in mediocrity for the next few years. No stars will come here in FA...we need to hit in the draft. To me, tanking seems like the best option overall and with a coach like Casey it probably won't happen. He isn't looking for a rebuild...but again..we aren't winning anything special in the next few years. Then eventually the organization decides to tank and we wasted 3 years of potential good picks.

    I do in fact believe that there is less pressure on Casey then if we didn't make the Blake trade. I think the general sentiment is that Blake + Drum + Reggie is not enough for anything other than a potential second round exit. We don't have championship expectations...we don't have eastern conference finals exceptions. This is why I am considering the first 2 years of Casey as "throw away" and the third year is his year of reckoning. If we do indeed get to like the eastern conference finals then Casey may stay the length of his contract. It's 3 years away so any speculation on my part is purely gut feeling. I just don't see us getting out of mediocrity...especially by having a coach that isn't a good tactician. Not to mention our two highest paid players can't shoot.

    I will be happy if we finish the year at or slightly above .500 this year...and I think that is probably where the general expectation is.
    Last edited by lizardking13; 06-11-2018 at 07:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizardking13 View Post
    I don't think we will tank, mostly because of the stars that we have. But I DO think that we SHOULD tank. Otherwise we just sit in mediocrity for the next few years. No stars will come here in FA...we need to hit in the draft. To me, tanking seems like the best option overall and with a coach like Casey it probably won't happen. He isn't looking for a rebuild...but again..we aren't winning anything special in the next few years. Then eventually the organization decides to tank and we wasted 3 years of potential good picks.

    I do in fact believe that there is less pressure on Casey then if we didn't make the Blake trade. I think the general sentiment is that Blake + Drum + Reggie is not enough for anything other than a potential second round exit. We don't have championship expectations...we don't have eastern conference finals exceptions. This is why I am considering the first 2 years of Casey as "throw away" and the third year is his year of reckoning. If we do indeed get to like the eastern conference finals then Casey may stay the length of his contract. It's 3 years away so any speculation on my part is purely gut feeling. I just don't see us getting out of mediocrity...especially by having a coach that isn't a good tactician. Not to mention our two highest paid players can't shoot.

    I will be happy if we finish the year at or slightly above .500 this year...and I think that is probably where the general expectation is.
    I think we made the playoffs at 44-38. I do think the east is better than it was then and I do think we have more talent than we had then, so I'm looking at 45-48 wins minimum and would have some serious questions if we didn't rattle of a couple of streaks that could put us withi 50.

    The last couple of seasons, even without the injuries, we had a couple of losing streaks that were totally not necessary IMHO. That's coaching and playing hard against the teams you should beat.

    I just think the talent on this team when healthy is being understated by many. I don't think Gores thinks this way - as he ok'd the deal for Blake and obviously thinks that's a better fit. And I don't think the front office should give a hint of "go get 'em you .500 guys." This is the most talent on this team in nearly a decade. I know that might not be saying much, but then it also says how bad we've been and how far we've come.

    Half a dozen teams missed out on Booker and Mitchell - which really shows how much of a crap shoot the draft really is, unless you're talking about a AD or LeBron. Heck, look at Durant & ?? (guy from Ohio State). That was a franchising altering draft for both teams. I think with the team we have, we can be a player for a guy like Jamal Crawford. Perhaps not signing him, but I think he at least takes a phone call - if for no other reason than he played with Blake in L.A. And that also says something about the talent level on this team. .500 should be the floor IMHO, and anything less puts a lot of pressure on a lot of guys on this team. As it should.

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