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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Yes, like I said he is still a better version of 3/d due to what you mention but he still is used more in that way is the point. That is because his talents aren't as needed/are redundant. He's not your average one but him in just more of that role than the 2nd star is due to being redundant now.

    Yup but this is what makes Green a bit special in GS too is how he fits and is maximized by these other players/system. Offense isn't the key for him either though haha they don't have anything like a DPOY big man without him bringing near the same versatility. That's what makes him especially needed and not nearly as redundant.

    We fully agree on some of this offensive talent and who is helping who but the reasons why is because one is more redundant than the other. Klay is the one that is more hindered individually in this offense due to being redundant AND he doesn't bring the same DPOY/big man versatility that GS doesn't have outside Green. In 2016 Curry/Green/Durant all were doing more on the offensive end production wise than last year. There is room for them to help pick up some of the slack so while a role player might be closer to 10 ppg if you just look at the differences from now to when they weren't all loaded up together we see they likely have the skill to be ok. Sure there would be a bit of a drop off still but it isn't quite like losing the anchor on the other side of the ball that gives you matchup advantages etc. and we see all that in the impact numbers currently.

    The thing is those other teams you mentioned did have some redundant issues too. It was pointed out by tons when Miami joined up. This team has an extra star haha. Draymond/Klay is basically the perfect compliments to a #1 you could ask for (scoring/spacing/playmaking/versatility/defense) but now you can just KD in where Thompson is and it's even better! They bring enough similar things etc. that it is just a better version.
    I mostly agree with you, I just think they would survive better without Draymond than Klay. They would be different, of course, but I think the other parts are easier to replace.

    Part of that is the fact that Klay has the capability to do more where as Draymond is very much maxed out. That may sound backwards but situation wise it makes sense. What if there's a big injury, like Curry just had? Or just having rotations where Klay gets moments to be on his own or one of two out there, and that keeps your offense at a crazy high level for 48 minutes. Games where there's foul trouble to Durant or Curry, same concept. Etc.

    On the flip side, who you bring in to replace Draymond will have all of those elements that help maximize him, therefore they will be better there than they would be on another team. You can basically ignore his offensive contributions, because like we said those aren't really why he's there and there's three guys on the team who are far better offensive players anyways.

    Yes those teams in Miami and Cleveland had redundant issues, but ultimately you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players on their own. My point was that Klay is in the role and position that those guys were in, where as I don't think Draymond would be an All-NBA player if he wasn't on the Warriors. Klay? It's possible, but I'm not sure he does enough rebounding and passing wise to be up there. But on this type of team, he's in their shoes.

    The thing to remember is that the Warriors were always constructed this way, they just had Harrison Barnes in Klay's current position and Klay was in Durant's. You can look at the 2016 Finals and WCF as clear potential issues of going back to that sort of setup. Barnes on the Warriors was an 11 PPG scorer and on Dallas became an 18-20 PPG scorer the very next season. That's what I mean by undervaluing Klay's scoring on this team. It's easy to look at it and think yeah, maybe if they had Gary Harris he could do a close enough job? Orrr maybe Gary Harris in that spot in scoring 13-14 PPG instead of the 17-18 that he did this year? All of sudden you just dropped 6-7 PPG from Klay's 20 and for any team that's a very big deal.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    In case it needs to be spelled out for you, those players (and frankly your team) does not matter to the NBA. These are All Stars and have implications of how a dynasty will progress, which in turn colors how the entire league will progress.

    The owners are getting a $300 million dollar 30 year loan (interest free) this summer from personal-seat-licenses at the new arena. And their sales as is on a global level are astronomical. They reportedly made $130 million on their 11 home playoff games this year alone. If they want to keep everyone, they have the means.
    Yeah, everyone that says that they’ll need to eventually let someone go just doesn’t understand how much money they’re taking in and how much of an ego guys like Lacob have. They’ll pay whatever they need to keep it together. I seriously think the league should have a luxury cap at some point because how can any other team compete with that? War said earlier that season tickets might be as high as $500,000 and those tech guys just **** that amount of money out a week. This money stuff is just ridiculous.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    I mostly agree with you, I just think they would survive better without Draymond than Klay. They would be different, of course, but I think the other parts are easier to replace.

    Part of that is the fact that Klay has the capability to do more where as Draymond is very much maxed out. That may sound backwards but situation wise it makes sense. What if there's a big injury, like Curry just had? Or just having rotations where Klay gets moments to be on his own or one of two out there, and that keeps your offense at a crazy high level for 48 minutes. Games where there's foul trouble to Durant or Curry, same concept. Etc.

    On the flip side, who you bring in to replace Draymond will have all of those elements that help maximize him, therefore they will be better there than they would be on another team. You can basically ignore his offensive contributions, because like we said those aren't really why he's there and there's three guys on the team who are far better offensive players anyways.

    Yes those teams in Miami and Cleveland had redundant issues, but ultimately you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players on their own. My point was that Klay is in the role and position that those guys were in, where as I don't think Draymond would be an All-NBA player if he wasn't on the Warriors. Klay? It's possible, but I'm not sure he does enough rebounding and passing wise to be up there. But on this type of team, he's in their shoes.

    The thing to remember is that the Warriors were always constructed this way, they just had Harrison Barnes in Klay's current position and Klay was in Durant's. You can look at the 2016 Finals and WCF as clear potential issues of going back to that sort of setup. Barnes on the Warriors was an 11 PPG scorer and on Dallas became an 18-20 PPG scorer the very next season. That's what I mean by undervaluing Klay's scoring on this team. It's easy to look at it and think yeah, maybe if they had Gary Harris he could do a close enough job? Orrr maybe Gary Harris in that spot in scoring 13-14 PPG instead of the 17-18 that he did this year? All of sudden you just dropped 6-7 PPG from Klay's 20 and for any team that's a very big deal.
    Ya I disagree but even so Klay is still currently more redundant skills wise etc. That is the exact reason Klay can do more but isn't. I think it would be fair to say Klay is more talented or you would pick him first to lead a team etc. but this specific team like I have been saying is different.

    Sure if they have a big injury to Curry/Durant those redundancies disapear a bit but that furthers my point. Klay is better offensively and can carry more of a load, he isn't doing that because his skills are redundant with Curry/KD rn. I agree and have been saying that but that isn't the convo and the reason he isn't now is being a bit redundant. He is capable of more the redundant skills/talent make him less useful and impactful as the numbers show.

    I think you partially underrate what Green brings probably because it is on the defensive end. He is one of the best defenders in the league and much of this stuff you are talking about in comparison to Klay is the extra he brings (whereas for Klay his defense is the extra part).

    6-7 ppg is like the difference between what Curry/Green did pre Durant to what they put up this season haha. Durant is better than Klay as well and that initial trio was fine offensively. Like I said I get they drop off some but they have players/talents capable of picking it up on that end especially with KD now. They just don't have anything like the DPOY anchor/versatility/spacing and passing from a big man like Green in nearly the same way. What you mean to say is that for most teams it would be a big deal, this isn't most teams.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-11-2018 at 05:47 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Yeah, everyone that says that they’ll need to eventually let someone go just doesn’t understand how much money they’re taking in and how much of an ego guys like Lacob have. They’ll pay whatever they need to keep it together. I seriously think the league should have a luxury cap at some point because how can any other team compete with that? War said earlier that season tickets might be as high as $500,000 and those tech guys just **** that amount of money out a week. This money stuff is just ridiculous.
    Sounds like the real answer is 100% revenue sharing where the economical advantages and disadvantages of every team are equalized. Share ALL of the money and give breaks for cost of living differences by location so Texas/Florida tax advantages are equalized too. Then it would be "fair" ... even though there will still be teams that do better than others year after year.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    What you mean to say is that for most teams it would be a big deal, this isn't most teams.
    Uhhh, no what I meant to say is what I said.

    Obviously how you view Klay and Draymond is going to influence what you think on this. I just personally think that Draymond wouldn't be who he is on any other team, where as the other three would be. And no, it has nothing to do with undervaluing defense - I'm the complete opposite on that in general lol.

    I don't think it would be to the same extent, but an example off the top of my head would be Tayshaun Prince. When Detroit was at their peak and he had the Wallace's behind him he was an elite defender. Once that foundation was gone he had some flaws badly exposed and fell off a cliff on that end.

    In short, I think that Golden State's system and foundation does a lot of propping up of Draymond on both ends, although much more severely on the offensive end. And yes, that would be still be a big deal for this team. It would be the difference between beating Houston and not beating Houston, for example.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Uhhh, no what I meant to say is what I said.

    Obviously how you view Klay and Draymond is going to influence what you think on this. I just personally think that Draymond wouldn't be who he is on any other team, where as the other three would be. And no, it has nothing to do with undervaluing defense - I'm the complete opposite on that in general lol.

    I don't think it would be to the same extent, but an example off the top of my head would be Tayshaun Prince. When Detroit was at their peak and he had the Wallace's behind him he was an elite defender. Once that foundation was gone he had some flaws badly exposed and fell off a cliff on that end.

    In short, I think that Golden State's system and foundation does a lot of propping up of Draymond on both ends, although much more severely on the offensive end. And yes, that would be still be a big deal for this team. It would be the difference between beating Houston and not beating Houston, for example.
    Haha I guess so. Well I will just say we have literally seen them put up those numbers efficiently/winning IRL so saying they can't or would struggle seems crazy to me, especially considering they add Durant too here. Those points wouldn't be tough to come by if you believe they are capable of playing like they have in the past and Durant is at least as good as Klay.

    Yes Draymond is propped up on the offensive end. His main value is at the defensive end. This is the key thing that separates them is he is the anchor to the other side of the ball. An example of this would be looking at Utah without Gobert and then with him this year. Now he can definitely be argued as a better defender but Green does bring things he doesn't offensively to help negate that. We can go in circles for days about examples that have happened with other similar players etc. though this was just to counter yours.

    I think the system benefits everyone but if anything Draymond props them up on the defensive end more than any other player. Thats the key and why they can't lose him he is the anchor on one side while being maximized on the other due to Curry/KD and even Klay. He brings something completely different AND is maximized in the area he has good secondary skills but couldn't carry a load (which they have 2 players who can). Klay isn't a top 2 on either side of the ball for them in that same way and if he were gone it doesn't create that gap anywhere.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-12-2018 at 02:40 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Sounds like the real answer is 100% revenue sharing where the economical advantages and disadvantages of every team are equalized. Share ALL of the money and give breaks for cost of living differences by location so Texas/Florida tax advantages are equalized too. Then it would be "fair" ... even though there will still be teams that do better than others year after year.
    How do you make Dolan smarter? The NBA might need to start handing out lobotomies.

  8. #38
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    Curry, KD, Klay, and Green all want to stay, the front office and owners want them to stay. The only question is what the two sides can work out. I suspect that KD, Klay, and Green re-up. It's possible they leave significant money on the table when they do. But there are no guarantees of course.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    How do you make Dolan smarter? The NBA might need to start handing out lobotomies.
    You can't.

    I actually suggested in the past that the best way to stop tanking of lottery teams would be to only allow owners to attend half the number of games their team won the previous year. I've never seen a team win with regularity with bad owners, maybe the best way to get rid of the owners is to make it less fun.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    You can't.

    I actually suggested in the past that the best way to stop tanking of lottery teams would be to only allow owners to attend half the number of games their team won the previous year. I've never seen a team win with regularity with bad owners, maybe the best way to get rid of the owners is to make it less fun.
    Eh it will play on their egos which is a good idea but there's a lot of stuff they'll need to do. It won't just be one thing.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Unbelievable! Lacob wants to retain those two? You don’t say.
    Don’t worry, they’ll make up that lost income (and then some for taking a sweetheart deal) from Lacob’s buddies in endorsement deals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Ima create a thread anytime an owner says they're trying to create a player.
    Bucks trying to keep Snell and ROY Broggy? thread. Bulls trying to keep Dunn and some scrub? Thread.
    The thread was meant to start a discussion on what could happen with Thompson and Green, a couple all-NBA players who will have to surrender tens of millions to keep the band together. Bob Myers just told some reporters he would give Durant "whatever he wants." I don't really see what you're busting my balls over.
    Last edited by mrblisterdundee; 06-12-2018 at 12:31 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    If you some how think the two are the same...... One of your dumber posts.
    Haha
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

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  13. #43
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    This has been an interesting thread I agree with several post. Just to throw this out there but what do you think that Klay or Green could get in a trade for the Warriors? This is just straight hypothetical to the Warriors paying them and being way over the lux tax or Lacob trying to make it seem as if he wouldn't want to let Klay or Green go to drive up the price. The Warriors could land a huge haul for Green and Klay even more.
    http://www.logo-designer.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Real-Madrid-football-club-logo-design-branding-identity-Ruben-Ferlo.jpg

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Haha I guess so. Well I will just say we have literally seen them put up those numbers efficiently/winning IRL so saying they can't or would struggle seems crazy to me, especially considering they add Durant too here. Those points wouldn't be tough to come by if you believe they are capable of playing like they have in the past and Durant is at least as good as Klay.

    Yes Draymond is propped up on the offensive end. His main value is at the defensive end. This is the key thing that separates them is he is the anchor to the other side of the ball. An example of this would be looking at Utah without Gobert and then with him this year. Now he can definitely be argued as a better defender but Green does bring things he doesn't offensively to help negate that. We can go in circles for days about examples that have happened with other similar players etc. though this was just to counter yours.

    I think the system benefits everyone but if anything Draymond props them up on the defensive end more than any other player. Thats the key and why they can't lose him he is the anchor on one side while being maximized on the other due to Curry/KD and even Klay. He brings something completely different AND is maximized in the area he has good secondary skills but couldn't carry a load (which they have 2 players who can). Klay isn't a top 2 on either side of the ball for them in that same way and if he were gone it doesn't create that gap anywhere.
    Yeah we clearly just view Draymond very differently. I don't view him like Gobert, in this example. Whenever I have watched the Warriors play when he's been out I've never felt the vacuum being as severe as Gobert this season. And yes, of course they would be fine overall and either way haha. They just played in a game 7 though, and Harden wasn't even good that series, so we don't need to pretend that they're some unbeatable force even as is.

    To me Klay is the Harden to Draymond's Ibaka, if you will. Durant and WB were perfectly fine without Harden, but they became an extremely top heavy team when it came to scoring and had to rely on people like Dion Waiters for scoring assistance. The wear and tear and fatigue of doing all of that work leads to bad things at the end of the postseason, as we saw in 2016. Losing Ibaka would have hurt as well, but scoring is a premium in the NBA for a reason.

    It's a hypothetical scenario so who knows if we'll ever get the answer. It certainly sounds like all parties involved are focused on keeping it from happening though.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Yeah we clearly just view Draymond very differently. I don't view him like Gobert, in this example. Whenever I have watched the Warriors play when he's been out I've never felt the vacuum being as severe as Gobert this season. And yes, of course they would be fine overall and either way haha. They just played in a game 7 though, and Harden wasn't even good that series, so we don't need to pretend that they're some unbeatable force even as is.

    To me Klay is the Harden to Draymond's Ibaka, if you will. Durant and WB were perfectly fine without Harden, but they became an extremely top heavy team when it came to scoring and had to rely on people like Dion Waiters for scoring assistance. The wear and tear and fatigue of doing all of that work leads to bad things at the end of the postseason, as we saw in 2016. Losing Ibaka would have hurt as well, but scoring is a premium in the NBA for a reason.

    It's a hypothetical scenario so who knows if we'll ever get the answer. It certainly sounds like all parties involved are focused on keeping it from happening though.
    The issue with that analogy is the warriors have an effective offensive system built around Curry. That won't just go away with Klay gone. You could plug a 3 & D guy and the system keeps going smoothly. Just a little less dangerous as Klay is more than JUST a 3 & D.

    You take Green and it's much harder to go small. Bell looks legit but he's still a rookie and he can't space out to 3. He can switch onto guards but not nearly as effectively. And largest thing your missing if you let Green go has nothing to do with BBall. He's their vocal leader, he's their coach on the court, he's the heart that gets them going and doesn't let them settle for their talent. That can't be replaced.

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