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Thread: 2018-19 Draft

  1. #61
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    Only if we take that deal you are proposing. Otherwise we can keep nice depth/end of bench guys on cheap rookie contracts and get a max contract.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Only if we take that deal you are proposing. Otherwise we can keep nice depth/end of bench guys on cheap rookie contracts and get a max contract.
    I prefer better players. But if you're preference is nice depth/end of bench guys who have proved nothing for cheap...Then so be it.

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  3. #63
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    You're essentially stating that you'd rather have option A or B over option C

    Option A

    MAX player (Let's say PG13)
    Embiid
    Simmons
    Saric
    Covington

    Redick (MLE)
    Holmes
    #10 player (Let's say Bridges)
    Belinelli (vet min)
    Fultz

    Anderson
    McConnell
    #22 player
    Korkmaz
    TLC


    Option B

    Embiid
    Simmons
    Saric
    Covington
    Redick

    Holmes
    #10 player (Let's say Bridges)
    Illyasova
    Belinelli
    Fultz

    Anderson
    McConnell
    #22 player
    Korkmaz
    TLC

    + cap space (not enough for a MAX - because Reddick isn't going to take an MLE if you can offer more)

    Option C

    MAX player (Let's say PG13)
    Embiid
    Simmons
    Saric
    Covington

    Redick (MLE)
    Rozier
    Morris
    Holmes
    Belinelli (vet min)

    Illyasova (vet min)
    Fultz
    Anderson
    McConnell
    vet min/2nd round pick player

    + Future picks for trading away #22, #27, TLC and Korkmaz

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  4. #64
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    Yes because in A and B we can have max cap space in 2019 as well, we aren't trading away 8 years of team control for 2 years, and we aren't adding depth at 2 places where we are actually ok at.

    PROCESSING

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Yes because in A and B we can have max cap space in 2019 as well, we aren't trading away 8 years of team control for 2 years, and we aren't adding depth at 2 places where we are actually ok at.
    How are you going to have MAX cap space in 2019 with option A? George/Embiid/Simmons/Fultz alone accounts for $75M on a $108M cap. When you put roster holds on the other 8 spots the max amount of money you can clear out if you let EVERYONE else go (included your 2 rookies from the previous year) is $26M.

    Yeah option B you can clear the MAX space that you didn't spend this year.

    In either scenario I don't see how it's better short or long term vs. scenario C


    Option A. You get a MAX which you also have in option C but with a worse bench. You're literally not going to take Rozier and Morris cause you want to keep TLC and Korkmaz. That's insane. I'll also repeat, Option A you cannot clear enough cap for another MAX in 2019.

    Option B. You have the same team as last year + 2 rookies. Doubt your season unfolds any better than this years. And can try the Free Agent market 1 more time.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 06-12-2018 at 06:57 PM.

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  6. #66
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    Of course you don't see because what you are suggesting is far more beneficial to you than us.

    Pick #10 and 4/5 years of rookie deal and 4/5 years off RFA

    OR

    Rozier on a 1 year with RFA and Morris with a 1 year at $5mil then URFA

    Most, almost all teams take the pick. Team control, maintain our max space availability for the next 2 years, don't trade away 8-10 years of a player for 1 year of 2 players.

    The reason you are so hot on it is this is a far better deal for the Celtics than it is for the Sixers overall. We would be insane to do that deal. And we're highly unlikely to pull an in division deal like that ever again.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Of course you don't see because what you are suggesting is far more beneficial to you than us.

    Pick #10 and 4/5 years of rookie deal and 4/5 years off RFA

    OR

    Rozier on a 1 year with RFA and Morris with a 1 year at $5mil then URFA

    Most, almost all teams take the pick. Team control, maintain our max space availability for the next 2 years, don't trade away 8-10 years of a player for 1 year of 2 players.

    The reason you are so hot on it is this is a far better deal for the Celtics than it is for the Sixers overall. We would be insane to do that deal. And we're highly unlikely to pull an in division deal like that ever again.
    I'm not hot on it at all. I just find it comical at this point. You're choosing Bridges/Korkmaz/TLC over Rozier/Morris and 2-3 future firsts. Control isn't an issue...If you want to be a successful playoff team, you need proven guys. Look at GS bench and tell me what you see. Look at CLE bench. You're not rebuilding anymore.

    You're just upset because I've disproved your notions of your own teams cap on multiple occasions now. You keep making claims that are just factually inaccurate.

    And you want to talk about controllable rookie contracts....I got those for you too. Because trading #22, #27 TLC and Korkmaz likely has you 2-3 first round picks moving forward to backfill your roster with your coveted controllable rookie contracts.

    In reality, I hope PHI shares your mindset. It'll make Boston's run the next 4-5 years much easier. You keep your rookie contracts, we'll go after the better players.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 06-13-2018 at 05:45 AM.

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I'm not hot on it at all. I just find it comical at this point. You're choosing Bridges/Korkmaz/TLC over Rozier/Morris and 2-3 future firsts. Control isn't an issue...If you want to be a successful playoff team, you need proven guys. Look at GS bench and tell me what you see. Look at CLE bench. You're not rebuilding anymore.
    No I'm favoring flexibility for 1. Yes control is an issue. Trading a top 10 pick for a guy that's a RFA in 1 season and likely in the way to a $10-15mil a year contract (which would put us in the tax at that point) and 1 season of a URFA (who would likely get $10-15mil and put us in the tax) is silly. What it does is gives up flexibility for 2 players that we would either have to (1) let walk and get nothing back for while being unable to replace them due to being over the cap OR (2) put ourselves in the tax, loading up on the contracts, and being locked into a roster for 3-5 years. And if that roster isn't good enough, we're stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    You're just upset because I've disproved your notions of your own teams cap on multiple occasions now. You keep making claims that are just factually inaccurate.
    No you haven't because you keep skipping and leaving stuff out.

    Our Current situation with cap holds looks like this:
    Embiid - $25,250,000
    Covington - $10,464,092
    Bayless - $8,575,916
    Fultz - $8339,880
    Simmons - $6,434,520
    Saric - $2,526,840
    Anderson - $2,516,048
    Korkmaz - $1,740,000
    Holmes - $1,600,520 (team option)
    McConnell - $1,600,520 (team option)
    Luwawu-Cabarrot - $1,446,360
    ACTIVE ROSTER CAP - $70,494,696
    Redick - $27,600,000
    Johnson - $13,200,000
    Belinelli - $1,544,951
    Ilyasova - $1,544,951
    Roster Charge (1 spot) - $831,927
    CAP HOLDS - $44,721,829
    TOTAL CAP ALLOCATION - $115,216,525

    So right away we have to renounce everyone for the practical cap space of $30,505,304.

    So if we do this deal, we would have to first renounce JJ Redick; Johnson, Belinelli, and Ilyasova are likely going to be renounced anyways but they don't take us low enough to take on the deal.

    So if we take on this deal you are suggesting of Rozier/Morris/27 for 10, that means our active cap number becomes $78,920,086, and add in the 3 roster holds at $831,927 and we're at $81,415,867. Let's say we manage to find someone to take Bayless+23 for the rights to a player so we don't have money tied to anyone. Active cap + holds would become $73,671,878. That's still almost $4mil short of Paul Georges max contract. Accounting for holds that would mean trading out Anderson, Korkmaz, TLC without bringing a single dollar back in, to take us to $70,465,251. We would still be short.

    So at that point we have 0 chance at LeBron because without a dramatic salary cutting move (trading Covington/Fultz without bringing back a single contract). We also massively depleted our roster for PG13 because we would have to not pick up the options on Holmes and McConnell walk.

    And what hurts even more is if you do all that work and you don't get one of those max contracts. Because if you do all that work and neither come (I get you would wait to know one of them is coming before doing one of those deals) would leave us with:
    Simmons - Rozier - Fultz
    ???
    Covington
    Saric - Morris
    Embiid

    And that's it. Nothing else.

    Even if we don't do a bunch of the subsequent moves it's:
    Simmons - Rozier - Fultz
    JJ (??) - TLC - Forkmaz
    Covington - Anderson
    Saric - Morris
    Embiid

    And best case you are likely looking at:
    Simmons - Rozier - ???
    Fultz (if good with the shoulder) - ??? - ???
    George - ??? - ????
    Saric - Morris - ???
    Embiid - ??? - Boldin

    Eh. That's not getting much further than we did this year TBH.

    On the flip, we could be talking about doing the following:
    Keep pick 10. Trade 27 and Bayless for no contracts at all on draft night. Turn down the option to Holmes. Turn down cap holds other than JJ Redick. Gives us an effective cap space of about $38million. I would be ok if we did the same with TLC TBH, giving us close to $40mil in effective cap space.

    Not renouncing the cap holds for JJ? Well this is where an order of operations really helps out. If we have about $40mil in contract space, if we bring in PG13 and his $30mil max we could sign JJ Redick to a 3 year $30mil deal and Paul George to his max, and have our 10th pick. Then we still got the MLE and Non-Tax Payer Mini to bring back Marco and Ersan. In that case you could have:
    Simmons - Fultz - TJ
    JJ - Belinelli - TLC - Korkmaz
    Geroge - Covington - Anderson
    Saric - Bridges - Ilyasova
    Embiid - Min FA - Boldin

    Compare that roster to above. Unless you are homering it up for what's best for you, that second roster is much much better. Covington, Fultz, Bridges on the bench give us the length and athleticism that we were missing before. Redick, George, Belinelli, Ilyasova give us that playoff vet presence that you would be claiming that we get with Rozier and Morris. We aren't looking at putting ourselves into the tax right away. If you sign Beli, Illy, and an Embiid Backup to only 1 year deals, you are keeping flexibility there. Because in 2 years we got Simmons and Saric coming up for deals. We take on Rozier and Morris, and we kept both after 1 year that means that we would be paying an absurd tax to keep both of those guys and Simmons and Saric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    And you want to talk about controllable rookie contracts....I got those for you too. Because trading #22, #27 TLC and Korkmaz likely has you 2-3 first round picks moving forward to backfill your roster with your coveted controllable rookie contracts.
    That's assuming you can use a late 1st and a salary dump to bring back 1st round contracts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    In reality, I hope PHI shares your mindset. It'll make Boston's run the next 4-5 years much easier. You keep your rookie contracts, we'll go after the better players.
    It's funny that you say that because we're the team with the flat out max space and a top 10 pick this year and you.....aren't.

    Yes we will keep those contracts because it's what's put us in this place and giving us the flexibility to make these moves. And the fact that they have 2-4 years to having to makes these big decisions is huge. Giving that up for potential 1 year rental players is flat out stupid. Especially with the type of offseason that we have on the line.

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  9. #69
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    You canít sign a player with cap space and still have a MLE and bi-annual exception. You use cap space andnyou get just a room exception.


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  10. #70
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    I think

    Simmons / Rozier
    Redick / Fultz
    PG or LBJ / RoCo
    Saric / Morris
    Embiid / Holmes

    Is a SENSATATIONAL rotation. The extra ball ya fling of Rozier and even Morris make you guys tougher to defend than just Simmons surrounded by shooters. I love the defensive versatility too.

    However, the trade would have to happen before FA and if PG/LBJ both go elsewhere this deal makes it hard to try for a max again next year. It also has luxury tax implication.

    Like I said, I think Rozier is worth a mid 1st based on past comparable. #10 is a bit too high but not a ton. And adding Morris / #27 helps recoup some value. I think itís a fair proposal though itís nkt something Iíd do on either side. PHI is better off the flexibility, Boston is better off with the depth and insurance policies.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    You canít sign a player with cap space and still have a MLE and bi-annual exception. You use cap space andnyou get just a room exception.
    Then we at least keep one of those guys. Still better than gutting the roster.

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I think

    Simmons / Rozier
    Redick / Fultz
    PG or LBJ / RoCo
    Saric / Morris
    Embiid / Holmes

    Is a SENSATATIONAL rotation. The extra ball ya fling of Rozier and even Morris make you guys tougher to defend than just Simmons surrounded by shooters. I love the defensive versatility too.

    However, the trade would have to happen before FA and if PG/LBJ both go elsewhere this deal makes it hard to try for a max again next year. It also has luxury tax implication.

    Like I said, I think Rozier is worth a mid 1st based on past comparable. #10 is a bit too high but not a ton. And adding Morris / #27 helps recoup some value. I think itís a fair proposal though itís nkt something Iíd do on either side. PHI is better off the flexibility, Boston is better off with the depth and insurance policies.
    Definitely don't think it's unfair, but your hitting right on my argument. If we miss, this takes us out of max space in 2019 and has luxury tax implications. It's one of those deals what quickly makes sense, but the deeper you look into it, both teams are better off staying put.

    The better draft rumor(s) to talk about is 2 and 5 are on the table; Boston is interest in Mo Bamba to a high level and are looking to make a deal from whats reported.

    Sacramento at 2 wants young players, Dallas at 5 wants playoff ready players.

    Brown/Tatum; Oje/Yabu; Top 5 protect their own 2019 pick or becomes Bostons own; 27 for 2 work?
    Morris; Brown; 27 for 5?

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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Redick+Rozier+Morris is better than Redick + Bridges. At least for 1 year...Probably 2. If Bridges pans out he's likely better in year 3.

    To draft at 10 and sign a MAX Redick is gone anyways unless comes back for the MLE. Which is he does, you can come back on an MLE in my scenario as well.
    i think you are missing the fact that we dont believe Rozier or Morris are good fits, its really as simple as we dont need them. Like I said its more imporatnt to keep 2 of our free aent shooters between Reddick, Belli, and Illy while Fultz steps into a much larger role and we get a rookie scale deal with whoever we take at 10. Why rent Rozier and Morris when they wont make much impact overall?
    Last edited by TheDish87; 06-13-2018 at 09:18 AM.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I think he has the best chance of anyone in this draft to be.
    I'd say Ayton has the best chance. His defense is a question mark to some degree, but his size, athleticism and offensive skill is pretty air tight for a scoring big. Plus he can rebound. He might not fit the modern NBA as well as Doncic because quite frankly I don't know if any scoring center truly fits into the modern NBA especially when compared to a playmaking wing.

    With that said, even if he's not a perfectly ideal fit in today's NBA superstar, that doesn't mean he won't be a superstar. I'd still characterize Towns and Cousins as superstars and I think Ayton has a very good chance to be that type of player.

    More upside with Doncic just because of his style of play and how valuable it is in the league right now, but a better chance to become a superstar? I'll say Ayton is more likely to be that kind of talent. If you mean who has a better chance to being beyond a superstar and can be an all timer who makes everyone around him better and can lead a team on his back to championship contention... then I'll agree with you. But I think the odds are still low on that. They are extremely low for that criteria for any prospect. I'll say this though, even if Doncic just turns out to be a Gordon Heyward type, that still might be just as valuable as if Ayton because a superstar center because of versatility and style of play because unless Ayton shows he can be a defensive stud (his biggest question/flaw) then he'll always run into matchup problems against the better teams.

    So basically, I prefer Doncic even though I think Ayton has a better chance to become a superstar because if Doncic does actually become a superstar or even a semi-superstar, it'll probably be easier to build a winning team around him.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 06-13-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    No I'm favoring flexibility for 1. Yes control is an issue. Trading a top 10 pick for a guy that's a RFA in 1 season and likely in the way to a $10-15mil a year contract (which would put us in the tax at that point) and 1 season of a URFA (who would likely get $10-15mil and put us in the tax) is silly. What it does is gives up flexibility for 2 players that we would either have to (1) let walk and get nothing back for while being unable to replace them due to being over the cap OR (2) put ourselves in the tax, loading up on the contracts, and being locked into a roster for 3-5 years. And if that roster isn't good enough, we're stuck.



    No you haven't because you keep skipping and leaving stuff out.

    Our Current situation with cap holds looks like this:
    Embiid - $25,250,000
    Covington - $10,464,092
    Bayless - $8,575,916
    Fultz - $8339,880
    Simmons - $6,434,520
    Saric - $2,526,840
    Anderson - $2,516,048
    Korkmaz - $1,740,000
    Holmes - $1,600,520 (team option)
    McConnell - $1,600,520 (team option)
    Luwawu-Cabarrot - $1,446,360
    ACTIVE ROSTER CAP - $70,494,696
    Redick - $27,600,000
    Johnson - $13,200,000
    Belinelli - $1,544,951
    Ilyasova - $1,544,951
    Roster Charge (1 spot) - $831,927
    CAP HOLDS - $44,721,829
    TOTAL CAP ALLOCATION - $115,216,525

    So right away we have to renounce everyone for the practical cap space of $30,505,304.

    So if we do this deal, we would have to first renounce JJ Redick; Johnson, Belinelli, and Ilyasova are likely going to be renounced anyways but they don't take us low enough to take on the deal.

    So if we take on this deal you are suggesting of Rozier/Morris/27 for 10, that means our active cap number becomes $78,920,086, and add in the 3 roster holds at $831,927 and we're at $81,415,867. Let's say we manage to find someone to take Bayless+23 for the rights to a player so we don't have money tied to anyone. Active cap + holds would become $73,671,878. That's still almost $4mil short of Paul Georges max contract. Accounting for holds that would mean trading out Anderson, Korkmaz, TLC without bringing a single dollar back in, to take us to $70,465,251. We would still be short.

    So at that point we have 0 chance at LeBron because without a dramatic salary cutting move (trading Covington/Fultz without bringing back a single contract). We also massively depleted our roster for PG13 because we would have to not pick up the options on Holmes and McConnell walk.

    And what hurts even more is if you do all that work and you don't get one of those max contracts. Because if you do all that work and neither come (I get you would wait to know one of them is coming before doing one of those deals) would leave us with:
    Simmons - Rozier - Fultz
    ???
    Covington
    Saric - Morris
    Embiid

    And that's it. Nothing else.

    Even if we don't do a bunch of the subsequent moves it's:
    Simmons - Rozier - Fultz
    JJ (??) - TLC - Forkmaz
    Covington - Anderson
    Saric - Morris
    Embiid

    And best case you are likely looking at:
    Simmons - Rozier - ???
    Fultz (if good with the shoulder) - ??? - ???
    George - ??? - ????
    Saric - Morris - ???
    Embiid - ??? - Boldin

    Eh. That's not getting much further than we did this year TBH.

    On the flip, we could be talking about doing the following:
    Keep pick 10. Trade 27 and Bayless for no contracts at all on draft night. Turn down the option to Holmes. Turn down cap holds other than JJ Redick. Gives us an effective cap space of about $38million. I would be ok if we did the same with TLC TBH, giving us close to $40mil in effective cap space.

    Not renouncing the cap holds for JJ? Well this is where an order of operations really helps out. If we have about $40mil in contract space, if we bring in PG13 and his $30mil max we could sign JJ Redick to a 3 year $30mil deal and Paul George to his max, and have our 10th pick. Then we still got the MLE and Non-Tax Payer Mini to bring back Marco and Ersan. In that case you could have:
    Simmons - Fultz - TJ
    JJ - Belinelli - TLC - Korkmaz
    Geroge - Covington - Anderson
    Saric - Bridges - Ilyasova
    Embiid - Min FA - Boldin

    Compare that roster to above. Unless you are homering it up for what's best for you, that second roster is much much better. Covington, Fultz, Bridges on the bench give us the length and athleticism that we were missing before. Redick, George, Belinelli, Ilyasova give us that playoff vet presence that you would be claiming that we get with Rozier and Morris. We aren't looking at putting ourselves into the tax right away. If you sign Beli, Illy, and an Embiid Backup to only 1 year deals, you are keeping flexibility there. Because in 2 years we got Simmons and Saric coming up for deals. We take on Rozier and Morris, and we kept both after 1 year that means that we would be paying an absurd tax to keep both of those guys and Simmons and Saric.



    That's assuming you can use a late 1st and a salary dump to bring back 1st round contracts.



    It's funny that you say that because we're the team with the flat out max space and a top 10 pick this year and you.....aren't.

    Yes we will keep those contracts because it's what's put us in this place and giving us the flexibility to make these moves. And the fact that they have 2-4 years to having to makes these big decisions is huge. Giving that up for potential 1 year rental players is flat out stupid. Especially with the type of offseason that we have on the line.
    You need to read up on how the cap works. That is all...

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