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View Poll Results: Which team would win in a 7 game series?

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  • Seaside Seagulls

    7 50.00%
  • Team RR

    6 42.86%
  • GMs vote here

    1 7.14%
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Results 46 to 60 of 77
  1. #46
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    The idea that Oscar will win the match up against curry to me is not believable. Its missing the forest through the trees here.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    1). Curry can certainly guard Big O adequately. He just performed extremely well against James Harden, and he's a tougher guard than Big O. Not to mention you have the same problem. None of your perimeter players are very good at defense either, so who is guarding Curry?

    2). Tyson in his prime shut down Dwight, so he's more than enough to guard him. Especially considering Dwight will be throwing a hissy fit and not trying since you don't plan to use him as the offensive focal point.

    3). Cunningham will be guarding either Penny or T-Mac. I get it, he's an older player and he's white so everyone is going to think he sucks or he was un-athletic. But he was actually extremely athletic (his nickname was due to his athletic ability) and he won the ABA MVP. He's no scrub. Not to mention I have Mark Aguirre to come in, who played great defense for the Detroit "Bad Boy" Pistons, as well as Norm Van Lier, one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

    The questions I have for you are:

    1). Beyond simply having Big O/Penny/T-Mac go ISO what offense are you actually running?

    2). Where is your spacing actually coming from?

    3). Considering Karl Malone absolutely destroyed Horace Grant whenever they played, are you really going to keep him on Malone? Having my 2nd/3rd scoring option penciled in for 30 points on great efficiency will be awesome for my team.

    4). How do you plan to stop a Curry/Malone pick and roll?
    1.) Harden is NOT Oscar. Oscar carried teams and didn't shut down or give up in the playoffs. Even in his losses, Oscar still performed and never gave up. Harden also likes to jack up a ton of 3's when being defended by a smaller player... Oscar, while being able to shoot from 3, is going to be attacking the rim with little Curry on him. Also, Curry will be forced to switch throughout the game on Penny and TMac, both don't bode well for him in either scenario.

    2.) I debunked the notion Chandler "shut down Dwight"... Maintained peak Chandler (11-13) who is virtually identical to 08-11 Chandler got obliterated and humiliated in Dwight's prime (their prime really). Scoring less than 7 points and just over 4 rebounds in 26 minutes of action for Chandler, to Dwights 19.5 points and 14+ rebounds is a far car from "shutting down" Dwight. Even in the years Chandler "shut down" out-of-peak Howard, Howard scored way more and still had a huge advantage on the boards. Peek Chandler was still vastly inferior to out-of-peek Howard... hell, Chandler was even inferior to my backup center as well.

    3.) I mean, Cunningham was a good player in his day. Being a 6'6 power-forward who can jump doesn't necessarily mean they are athletic and have the foot-speed to keep up with Penny or TMac. We can hide behind stereotypes aren't always true, but the reality is, Cunningham didn't defend players like TMac or Penny, and he would get torched on defense and hurt your team on offense. We know the real reason why Cunningham is starting and it has zero to do with his jumping and athletic ability.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1.) We know ISO is important come playoff time. While people may not like it, it's proven teams that are equipped with great ISO players (take the Rockets for example) win. The offense is constructed with versatility in mind. Every player on the team but Howard are great passers/play-makers and can initiate the fastbreak or the offense in a half-court set. We plan to use the passing skillset of the starting unit and the bench to tire players out defensively and to force critical switches with Curry. Curry doesn't have anyone to hide on and he is (in my opinion) the best option on team Valade. By forcing Curry to play transition defense and bang with Oscar/Penny/TMac, we want to 1.) tire him out 2.) foul Chandler out by having to cover for the lack of wing defense on team Valade. We know Chandler couldn't do anything to prime Howard on the defense or offensive end, so when the bench comes in, we want them to space the floor (they are elite snipers) and have Howard go to town on Chandler.

    Howard never had teammates like Oscar/Penny/TMac in his prime, and he was frustrated that guys like Hedo were getting more shot attempts than him (rightfully so). With the team constructed, and the selflessness of the team, Howard won't mind allowing Oscar/Penny/TMac do their thing offensively as he focus on doing what he does best, rebound and defend. It's when the bench comes in and spaces the floor out even further that Howard will be called to feast on Chandler. I don't expect him to score 20 points a game like he did in his prime, but it'll be mid-to-high teens with a boatload of rebounds and blocked shots.

    2.) My spacing is superior than yours. You have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time followed by mediocre and subpar 3 point shooters. You do have a couple guys that could space by shooting the midrange, but not nearly enough 3 point shooters.

    Penny Hardaway averaged 4.8 3-point attempts, connecting on a more than respectable 38.6% of them. In fact, Hardaway's career playoff 3-point shooting blows his regular season percentages out of the water. Hardaway was more focus in the playoffs which is indicative by his increase scoring output and 3-point shooting percentages. Usually players are noticeably less efficient and/or score less in the playoffs, but Hardaway upped his game. Furthermore, Hardaway was a great midrange shooter. Shooting 3's isn't the only way to space the floor.

    Oscar Robertson was a a fantastic midrange shooter. He was a great free-throw shooter as well. At a time when guys like Cunningham were taking 20+ shots to get a little over 20 points a game, Robertson was highly efficient, attacking the rim, hitting his midrange shots, and making his free throws. Due to the high correlation between free throw shooting percentage and 3-point making ability, I'd say Oscar would be a 38%-40% 3 point shooter in today's game. I wouldn't be relying on his 3-point shooting much though, I want him to torture Curry in the post or in transition. He is definitely a floor spacer.

    Tracy McGrady averaged 3.9 3-point shot attempts making 37.3% of them. He could literally score from anywhere. Being guarded by Cunningham, it's hard to say what TMac would be doing more of: pulling out and shooting open 3's or blowing by Cunningham for an easy 2. Either way, McGrady is more than capable of spreading the floor.

    Horace Grant was a great midrange shooter. While he didn't shoot many 3's, he doesn't need to in order to spread the floor.

    Then comes my bench. The bench actually spaces the floor up even more.

    3-year Prime

    Mike Conley: 5.2 attempts @ 38.4%
    Hersey Hawkins: 2.9 attempts @ 40.3%
    Khris Middleton: 4.6 attempts @ 38.3%
    Andrei Kirilenko: 2.1 attempts @ 32.2%

    3.) Dwight would be the primary defender against Malone. Grant will guard him in spurts and will focus his energy on defense. Noah will come in when Dwight goes to the bench and take over. There will be a Defensive Player of the year on the court at all times.

    4.) There isn't "stopping" Curry/Malone. And if I didn't have the defensive personnel that I do, it would be incredibly difficult to contain them. Fortunately for me, my bigs are very agile/athletic to do as good a job as any to limit Curry/Malone as much as possible. This is why one of my strategies is to make Curry work excruciatingly hard on defense against Oscar/Penny/TMac. I want to force Curry to switch so he doesn't catch a breath. Being physical with Curry has proven to be effective in the playoffs. My trio has the athleticism, speed, and strength to do it, thereby making Curry less dangerous.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: I showed you the top end scoring for each of my players to demonstrate that all could score more than your bench yet all were able to also be complimentary pieces on championship rosters.

    Billy Cunningham played a complimentary role on a championship team, Mark Aguirre played a complimentary role on a championship team, Steve Smith played a complimentary role on a championship team. Heck, even Clyde Drexler was able to play a complimentary role on a championship team. All my guys know how to fit their skillsets into a championship squad.

    The point is, you couldn't ignore any of my players because if you try they can still torch you when needed.

    Second Bolded: No, teams don't need that. But he isn't that at all. Billy Cunningham already proved that he could be a complimentary piece on a championship team. He could defend, rebound and score. He was a complete player. He won the ABA MVP. This isn't some scrub.

    Third Bolded: Nothing I said was alternative facts: T-Mac is a career 52 TS% player. The reason his TS% is .540 from 01-03 is because one time he had a .564 TS%, but other than that he never had a TS% higher than .532. So in 15 seasons in the league you want to believe he's a .540 TS% player because 1 time in 15 seasons he managed to score that efficiently?


    We both have 3 primary scorers, mine are more efficient and you don't have a single person who could slow down any of them.
    What was Cunningham's role then? What is his role on your team? While it benefits your team for Cunningham to use his non-peek years (you want his complimentary years) because he isn't your number 1 scoring option now, he's still a negative on the offensive end. He doesn't defend faster and more athletic wings better because he isn't jacking up as many shots. What does he do on your team?! lol

    Your argument was that your bench players can score more points than my bench players if they take a ton more shots? No kidding... I could outscore LeBron James/Kevin Durant/James Harden if I were to take 500 shots more than them in a game too. You're saying they won't be used as a go-to-scorer, that's fine... what does your bench do? Norm isnt' going to defend as he won't see any court time with Curry there... LMA can shoot inefficient 2's but he isn't going to defend at an elite level.

    Alternative fact in the sense that you're posting irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with this game. This is a peak game and you use career TS% to bring down TMac's efficiency who is less than .020 TS% from Drexler in their 3-year peak. And you used Howard scoring 16.5 points a game when in his peak he never did that against Chandler or in the regular season against all other teams. How is that not an alternative fact? Fox News couldn't give out alternative facts any better.

    As for the bold: If 2 DPOYs, a 4x All Defense Team, AK47 can't "slow down" any of your players, then lets stop the game now and declare you the winner. If they can't slow your starters down, who the hell can? lol
    Last edited by Redrum187; 06-08-2018 at 06:11 PM.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    1.) Harden is NOT Oscar. Oscar carried teams and didn't shut down or give up in the playoffs. Even in his losses, Oscar still performed and never gave up. Harden also likes to jack up a ton of 3's when being defended by a smaller player... Oscar, while being able to shoot from 3, is going to be attacking the rim with little Curry on him. Also, Curry will be forced to switch throughout the game on Penny and TMac, both don't bode well for him in either scenario.

    2.) I debunked the notion Chandler "shut down Dwight"... Maintained peak Chandler (11-13) who is virtually identical to 08-11 Chandler got obliterated and humiliated in Dwight's prime (their prime really). Scoring less than 7 points and just over 4 rebounds in 26 minutes of action for Chandler, to Dwights 19.5 points and 14+ rebounds is a far car from "shutting down" Dwight. Even in the years Chandler "shut down" out-of-peak Howard, Howard scored way more and still had a huge advantage on the boards. Peek Chandler was still vastly inferior to out-of-peek Howard... hell, Chandler was even inferior to my backup center as well.

    3.) I mean, Cunningham was a good player in his day. Being a 6'6 power-forward who can jump doesn't necessarily mean they are athletic and have the foot-speed to keep up with Penny or TMac. We can hide behind stereotypes aren't always true, but the reality is, Cunningham didn't defend players like TMac or Penny, and he would get torched on defense and hurt your team on offense. We know the real reason why Cunningham is starting and it has zero to do with his jumping and athletic ability.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1.) We know ISO is important come playoff time. While people may not like it, it's proven teams that are equipped with great ISO players (take the Rockets for example) win. The offense is constructed with versatility in mind. Every player on the team but Howard are great passers/play-makers and can initiate the fastbreak or the offense in a half-court set. We plan to use the passing skillset of the starting unit and the bench to tire players out defensively and to force critical switches with Curry. Curry doesn't have anyone to hide on and he is (in my opinion) the best option on team Valade. By forcing Curry to play transition defense and bang with Oscar/Penny/TMac, we want to 1.) tire him out 2.) foul Chandler out by having to cover for the lack of wing defense on team Valade. We know Chandler couldn't do anything to prime Howard on the defense or offensive end, so when the bench comes in, we want them to space the floor (they are elite snipers) and have Howard go to town on Chandler.

    Howard never had teammates like Oscar/Penny/TMac in his prime, and he was frustrated that guys like Hedo were getting more shot attempts than him (rightfully so). With the team constructed, and the selflessness of the team, Howard won't mind allowing Oscar/Penny/TMac do their thing offensively as he focus on doing what he does best, rebound and defend. It's when the bench comes in and spaces the floor out even further that Howard will be called to feast on Chandler. I don't expect him to score 20 points a game like he did in his prime, but it'll be mid-to-high teens with a boatload of rebounds and blocked shots.

    2.) My spacing is superior than yours. You have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time followed by mediocre and subpar 3 point shooters. You do have a couple guys that could space by shooting the midrange, but not nearly enough 3 point shooters.

    Penny Hardaway averaged 4.8 3-point attempts, connecting on a more than respectable 38.6% of them. In fact, Hardaway's career playoff 3-point shooting blows his regular season percentages out of the water. Hardaway was more focus in the playoffs which is indicative by his increase scoring output and 3-point shooting percentages. Usually players are noticeably less efficient and/or score less in the playoffs, but Hardaway upped his game. Furthermore, Hardaway was a great midrange shooter. Shooting 3's isn't the only way to space the floor.

    Oscar Robertson was a a fantastic midrange shooter. He was a great free-throw shooter as well. At a time when guys like Cunningham were taking 20+ shots to get a little over 20 points a game, Robertson was highly efficient, attacking the rim, hitting his midrange shots, and making his free throws. Due to the high correlation between free throw shooting percentage and 3-point making ability, I'd say Oscar would be a 38%-40% 3 point shooter in today's game. I wouldn't be relying on his 3-point shooting much though, I want him to torture Curry in the post or in transition. He is definitely a floor spacer.

    Tracy McGrady averaged 3.9 3-point shot attempts making 37.3% of them. He could literally score from anywhere. Being guarded by Cunningham, it's hard to say what TMac would be doing more of: pulling out and shooting open 3's or blowing by Cunningham for an easy 2. Either way, McGrady is more than capable of spreading the floor.

    Horace Grant was a great midrange shooter. While he didn't shoot many 3's, he doesn't need to in order to spread the floor.

    Then comes my bench. The bench actually spaces the floor up even more.

    3-year Prime

    Mike Conley: 5.2 attempts @ 38.4%
    Hersey Hawkins: 2.9 attempts @ 40.3%
    Khris Middleton: 4.6 attempts @ 38.3%
    Andrei Kirilenko: 2.1 attempts @ 32.2%

    3.) Dwight would be the primary defender against Malone. Grant will guard him in spurts and will focus his energy on defense. Noah will come in when Dwight goes to the bench and take over. There will be a Defensive Player of the year on the court at all times.

    4.) There isn't "stopping" Curry/Malone. And if I didn't have the defensive personnel that I do, it would be incredibly difficult to contain them. Fortunately for me, my bigs are very agile/athletic to do as good a job as any to limit Curry/Malone as much as possible. This is why one of my strategies is to make Curry work excruciatingly hard on defense against Oscar/Penny/TMac. I want to force Curry to switch so he doesn't catch a breath. Being physical with Curry has proven to be effective in the playoffs. My trio has the athleticism, speed, and strength to do it, thereby making Curry less dangerous.
    First Bolded: Harden is not Big O, you're right about that. When it comes to a one on one matchup, he's tougher to guard. And Curry was able to effectively limit Harden in ISO situations, he'd do even better vs. Big O.

    Second Bolded: The real reason Cunningham is on my team is because I picked him. I had several opportunities to trade for other players to replace him and didn't, because he was better than them. He was an MVP player, he is on the Top 50 greatest players ever list and is in the Hall of Fame. He is no scrub.

    Third Bolded: So your strategy is ISO ball. You make a pretty bad point considering your example is Houston, which just lost in the playoffs to a Curry led team that beat them by not playing ISO. My offense is more cohesive and doesn't rely on ISO ball, yours does.

    Fourth Bolded: Howard did actually have teammates on your level. He played with Kobe, Pau and Nash; and that's was when he was at his most whiny. Saying you're going to ask Dwight to focus on rebounding and defense are the exact things he got whiny about. Prime Dwight doesn't want to just rebound and defend, he wants to get post ups.

    Fifth Bolded: I'm counting on your bench playing, because you said you're entire strategy is forcing Curry to switch to guard either Penny, T-Mac, or Big O, but Curry wont' have to do that if you have your bench guys in for spacing. I can have Curry guard any of Hawkins, Conley, or Middleton, which he is more than capable of doing. So by all means, give your bench a lot of minutes, that's only helping me.

    Not to mention my team has a lot of 3pt shooting. Clyde Drexler shot 35% from 3 alongside Hakeem, Mark Aguirre who shot 34% from 3 in Detroit, Steve Smith shot 36% from 3, Antawn Jamison shot 37% in his peak as well. Heck, LMA shot 35% from 3 the one year he shot them.

    Sixth Bolded: So if Dwight is guarding Malone, that means all your arguments about Howard dominating Chandler are irrelevant, because he won't be guarding him. So now Tyson is going to dominate Horace Grant instead and Dwight will try to guard Malone. So Curry and Malone will be running a PNR 30 feet from the basket, so your rim protector will be 30 feet from the hoop trying to guard Curry in space on a switch or trying to trail Malone to the basket. I love my chances there.


    I have an actual offensive identity and a strategy. Your offensive strategy thus far seems to be all-star game tactics, have 1 of your wings go ISO and hope you outscore the other team. That doesn't work very well, especially against such a perfect offensive combo like a Curry/Malone Pick and Roll.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    What was Cunningham's role then? What is his role on your team? While it benefits your team for Cunningham to use his non-peek years (you want his complimentary years) because he isn't your number 1 scoring option now, he's still a negative on the offensive end. He doesn't defend faster and more athletic wings better because he isn't jacking up as many shots. What does he do on your team?! lol

    Your argument was that your bench players can score more points than my bench players if they take a ton more shots? No kidding... I could outscore LeBron James/Kevin Durant/James Harden if I were to take 500 shots more than them in a game too. You're saying they won't be used as a go-to-scorer, that's fine... what does your bench do? Norm isnt' going to defend as he won't see any court time with Curry there... LMA can shoot inefficient 2's but he isn't going to defend at an elite level.

    Alternative fact in the sense that you're posting irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with this game. This is a peak game and you use career TS% to bring down TMac's efficiency who is less than .020 TS% from Drexler in their 3-year peak. And you used Howard scoring 16.5 points a game when in his peak he never did that against Chandler or in the regular season against all other teams. How is that not an alternative fact? Fox News couldn't give out alternative facts any better.

    As for the bold: If 2 DPOYs, a 4x All Defense Team, AK47 can't "slow down" any of your players, then lets stop the game now and declare you the winner. If they can't slow your starters down, who the hell can? lol
    First Bolded: Cunningham's role was to hustle, rebound and to help take the scoring role off Greer and Wilt. He did that excellently, and will do so on my team as well.

    Second Bolded: No, my argument was my bench players were better scorers period. They could score more points on the same number of shots as your bench. Difference is, nobody is scared of your bench scoring other than in a supporting role. I'm not scared of Middleton creating his own shot, nor AK47. Their points are entirely dependent on teammates. That is not true of my team. All of my bench is capable of scoring independent of assistance from teammates.

    Third Bolded: I'm using T-Mac's actual numbers. If you want to use his peak TS% it's still lower than my 3rd leading scorer (and light year's behind my #1 and #2 scorer's efficiency), and that's not even taking into account that inflated TS% is because he had 1 year of decent TS% and 2 years where he was his usual 52% self. I'm betting the 1 year of efficient scoring is the anomaly and not the 14 other years of inefficiency.

    Cunningham has more of a role on my team than Penny/Big O/T-Mac all do on yours. They were all best with the ball in their hands creating for themselves and now they're all on the same team. You yourself said your offense is ISO so while Big O or T-Mac is going ISO the other two players are standing around doing nothing.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Harden is not Big O, you're right about that. When it comes to a one on one matchup, he's tougher to guard. And Curry was able to effectively limit Harden in ISO situations, he'd do even better vs. Big O.
    Based on what? The only people downplaying Oscar are you and your brother (who coincidentally has Harden on his team). You're saying Curry effectively limited Harden when Curry isn't even known to be an above-average defender and in the same breath saying Harden is the tougher player to guard? Strange how the "tougher" player to guard was limited by such a weak defender, especially in an All Time sense, in Stephen Curry. Furthermore, you don't think Curry being on an All Time great defensive and offensive team had anything to do with Harden giving up in the playoffs? It's an insane assumption to make that because the Golden State Warriors limited Harden that Curry would somehow limit Oscar in the same way when your wing defense is absolutely garbage in comparison. Furthermore, Curry would do an even worse job defending Penny/TMac on the switch.

    I guess we just have to respectfully disagree that Harden is the "tougher" player to guard in the playoffs. I'm not sure many would agree with you considering Harden's history.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Second Bolded: The real reason Cunningham is on my team is because I picked him. I had several opportunities to trade for other players to replace him and didn't, because he was better than them. He was an MVP player, he is on the Top 50 greatest players ever list and is in the Hall of Fame. He is no scrub.
    Jumping Joe is in the Hall of Fame as well. Maybe 50 years ago Cunningham was in the top 50, but I'm not sure anyone believes he would be able to hang offensively and especially defensively with contemporary wings.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Third Bolded: So your strategy is ISO ball. You make a pretty bad point considering your example is Houston, which just lost in the playoffs to a Curry led team that beat them by not playing ISO. My offense is more cohesive and doesn't rely on ISO ball, yours does.
    Every team, including the Golden State Warriors play some ISO ball. I never said that was my sole offense. I wanted to create a versatile team that COULD play ISO (which is important in the playoffs), COULD pass the ball around (my team has better play-makers and passers than even Golden State today), would be long and athetlic enough to to run the fast break in addition to multiple players capable of initiating it, and of course I wanted slashers who were also capable of knocking it down from 3 to stretch the defenses out. You ignored the fact that essentially everyone on my team are elite passers in their peak and that I'd use ball movement, just as the Warriors do.

    3-Year Peek Assist #s

    Oscar Robertson: 10.6 assists/game (didn't record turnovers at the time)
    Penny Hardaway: 6.7 assists/game (only 2.9 turnovers)
    Tracy McGrady: 5.1 assists/game (only 2.6 turnovers)
    Horace Grant: 2.9 assists/game (only 1.4 turnovers)
    The starting unit has an incredible assist rate and ultra low turnover rate. Now take a look at my bench:

    3-Year Peek Assist #s

    Mike Conley: 6.0 assist/game (only 1.9 turnovers)
    Hersey Hawkins: 3.3 assist/game (2.4 turnovers)
    Khris Middleton: 4.0 assist/game (only 2.3 turnovers)
    Andrei Kirilenko: 3.6 assist/game (2.7 turnovers)
    Joakim Noah: 4.1 assist/game (2.2 turnovers
    Let's add all this passing up and turnovers up (since they didn't record turnovers in Oscars' day, I'll be liberal and assign him 3.6 turnovers which is the highest amongst all the players on the team):

    Total Assists: 46.3
    Total Turnovers: 22.0
    Assist/Turnover Ration: 2.10 assist/turnover
    This isn't just my starting unit, this is the entire roster (minus Dwight) that has over a 2/1 assist/turnover ratio who got plenty of them as well in their prime. I won't pretend I won't ever use ISO, every team does in the playoffs, but it's the passing, speed, athleticism, and shooting that makes the offense so versatile and potent. And with Norm Van Lier being the only guy who was an elite wing defender who can't even get playing time, I don't see how they contain my team.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Fourth Bolded: Howard did actually have teammates on your level. He played with Kobe, Pau and Nash; and that's was when he was at his most whiny. Saying you're going to ask Dwight to focus on rebounding and defense are the exact things he got whiny about. Prime Dwight doesn't want to just rebound and defend, he wants to get post ups.
    First of all, no, Howard didn't play with anyone on Oscar/Penny/TMac's level in his prime. I know you want to keep using out-of-prime Howard years because it helps your narrative that Howard was "shut down" by Chandler (even though he scored way more points and grabbed way more rebounds) but please stop doing that. The rules of this game are to use peak years, and when Howard went to LA was the start of his noticeable decline. Furthermore, Kobe Bryant was 34 years old, not in his peak like Oscar/Penny/TMac are in this game. Nash was also injured for almost half the entire season and he was 38 years old for God's sake! lol You want to compare a 34 year old out-of-prime Kobe and a 38 year old grandpa who couldn't play more than 50 games in the single season Howard was in L.A. to PEAK Oscar Robertson, PEAK Penny Hardaway, and PEAK Tracy McGrady?!

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Fifth Bolded: I'm counting on your bench playing, because you said you're entire strategy is forcing Curry to switch to guard either Penny, T-Mac, or Big O, but Curry wont' have to do that if you have your bench guys in for spacing. I can have Curry guard any of Hawkins, Conley, or Middleton, which he is more than capable of doing. So by all means, give your bench a lot of minutes, that's only helping me.
    Having no one to adequately defend Oscar/Penny/TMac, I'm not surprised you'd look forward to my bench coming in. Curry is about 6'2/6'3, Khris Middleton is 6'8... Middleton isn't just a catch-and-shoot player, he's shown he's more than capable of driving and playmaking. I'd love Curry try to guard someone 5-6 inches taller than him on my bench.

    None of my players are going to play 48 minutes a game, so it's nice to know that when I do sub someone out on the starting unit, that my team won't skip a beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not to mention my team has a lot of 3pt shooting. Clyde Drexler shot 35% from 3 alongside Hakeem, Mark Aguirre who shot 34% from 3 in Detroit, Steve Smith shot 36% from 3, Antawn Jamison shot 37% in his peak as well. Heck, LMA shot 35% from 3 the one year he shot them.
    This is great! If you want to use out-of-prime Clyde Drexler's 3-point shooting years where he averaged 35% (94-95 to 96-97), I'm cool with that. TMac was a great defender in his peak, and now that Drexler is downgraded to his 32-34 year old self, it'll be easier to contain him.

    Mark Aguirre never shot 34% from 3-point in a 3-year peak in Detroit (or anywhere). If you want to use out-of-prime Mark Aguirre numbers in Detroit where he DID shoot better from 3-point, I'll gladly take that as well. He averaged 12 points 3.7 rebounts,1.8 assists, and shot the 3 at 29.7% from 91-93... Or you could use his last year where he shot from 3 the best in his entire career... but then his 3-year peak would be: 10.7 points, 3.1 rebounts, 1.8 assists and only shooting 29.2% from 3.

    Your starting unit doesn't have enough spacers to keep the defense honest. Your bench bench player bigs were better than your wings at shooting 3's... the problem is your 2nd best player is also a big so the bench won't see much time. Your lack of overall team spacing is underwhelming, which would make it easier to limit the Curry/Malone pick and roll with more help defense (in addition to the 2x DPOY players and a 4x All Defender + Oscar banging Curry up all series).

    I'm also noticing a theme here... you are using out-of-prime stats for me, you use singular seasons of your players when they are out-of-prime where they shot better from 3, and the players who were average 3-point shooters are all on your bench. I'll gladly let you take out Malone for LMA or Jamison... both were incredibly inefficient. I suspect you'll play Malone heavy minutes, so for about 8-10 minutes a game you get a one-dimensional inefficient PF to take his place so he can shoot a couple of 3's. Sounds good to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Sixth Bolded: So if Dwight is guarding Malone, that means all your arguments about Howard dominating Chandler are irrelevant, because he won't be guarding him. So now Tyson is going to dominate Horace Grant instead and Dwight will try to guard Malone. So Curry and Malone will be running a PNR 30 feet from the basket, so your rim protector will be 30 feet from the hoop trying to guard Curry in space on a switch or trying to trail Malone to the basket. I love my chances there.
    Hahahaha, what? Reread what you wrote in the bold.

    Just because Dwight defends Malone (in addition to Grant and Noah) doesn't mean that Dwight won't obliterate Chandler offensively like he did in his 3-year peak. Also, Tyson Chandler never dominated anyone offensively... what are you talking about?

    You're essentially saying that LMA could guard Dwight Howard in an earlier post, but Horace Grant (4x All Defense Team) can't hold Chandler defensively?

    You're trying to make me fully commit to either using Grant only or Dwight only on Malone. If I pick Grant only, you'll say, "Oh look at their career head-to-head numbers! Malone raped Grant!"... if only commit to Dwight guarding Malone, then it's "Tyson Chandler is going to rape Horace Grant and somehow Chandler will do a better job defensively against Howard because Howard is defending Malone!" Howard guarding Malone has nothing to do with Chandler's inability to limit Dwight Howard defensively.

    I'll repeat though... Grant will play Malone in spurts, while Howard and Noah (combined) will spend more time overall than Grant in defending Malone. All 3 defensive players will be taking turns defending Malone. Giving an offensive player multiple defensive looks is the best way to slow them down. Either way, I'll take my chances with "Tyson dominating Horace" over Grant singnle-handedly having to guard Malone... but I don't have to chose any of those options. I choose multiple defensive looks, with Dwight getting the lion's share of the time defending Malone.


    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I have an actual offensive identity and a strategy. Your offensive strategy thus far seems to be all-star game tactics, have 1 of your wings go ISO and hope you outscore the other team. That doesn't work very well, especially against such a perfect offensive combo like a Curry/Malone Pick and Roll.
    You lack the complimentary pieces to make your offensive strategy effective. Clyde and Cunningham (along with your bench wings) don't allow for the killer Curry/Malone pick and roll you could have if you had better spacing.

    Also, I can repeatedly tell you my offensive strategy but I can't make you actually read it. You read "ISO ball only" when I only mentioned the importance of ISO ball in the playoffs. It's as if you disagree that ISO ball is an important element in playoff basketball and even the Warriors play ISO ball in key situations.
    Last edited by Redrum187; 06-09-2018 at 04:34 PM.
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  7. #52
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    Close match-up for me but think I’m leaning Valade. Really like Big O-TMac-Dwight. As much as I like Penny I wish there was a different SG there.

  8. #53
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    By the way, since Cunningham is a hustle player on the starting unit who played PF/SF who didn't have a great shot, is he hustling out on the the perimeter on offense? If so, what business does he have out there when he couldn't even shoot 2's efficiently?

    Is Cunningham hustling in the paint (which is where he mostly played) right next to Tyson Chandler and Karl Malone? Do you still plan to use the Curry/Malone pick and roll with Cunningham in the way too?
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

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    RR ak can't slow down any of his players... He can't guard curry or Malone that's for damn sure. No where near quick enough for curry and those handles and no where near strong or physical enough for malone. I think Clyde is too fast and quick too. Ak guards stretch 4 and 3 best.

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    I think Seagulls win in 5 here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I think Seagulls win in 5 here.
    I got RR in 6/7

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkapolooza View Post
    RR ak can't slow down any of his players... He can't guard curry or Malone that's for damn sure. No where near quick enough for curry and those handles and no where near strong or physical enough for malone. I think Clyde is too fast and quick too. Ak guards stretch 4 and 3 best.
    First you say Oscar Robertson is the 4th best player in the series (after Curry/Malone/Drexler)... I ignored it because I wasn't sure if you were serious. Now you're saying AK47 couldn't guard any of his players... The Jazz didn't get the memo because he was used as the primary defender against LeBron James. The Celtics didn't get the memo either, they had him cover Paul Pierce. If you saw AK47 play in his 3-year peak you'd know he was considered a top 5 defender in the NBA at that time. He's a 3 time All Defense Team wing defender. Athletic and quick wings wasn't something he's never seen before in the way it is for Cunningham.

    What's hilarious is that you make no mention of Cunningham's inability to guard TMac. I mean, AK47 is night and day a better defender than Cunningham and was actually used to guard elite wings Drexler's size (LeBron and Pierce are about 1 inch taller than Drexler). There aren't many wings as athletic as today's wings, much less on the level of Tracy McGrady, but I'm sure you think Cunningham would do a superb job on defense, huh?

    AK47 wasn't just a great wing defender either, he was probably the greatest shot-blocking wing in NBA history. He averaged 3.0 blocks/game and 1.7 steals/game in his 3 year peak. He got many of those blocks on help-defense as well. When Curry drives to the rim or the times Grant is guarding Malone, AK47 could come over and help protect the rim.

    Speaking of the rim... I would argue that AK47 was a better rim protector and shot blocker than anyone on Valade's team (though I'll concede Malone and Chandler were good man-to-man defenders).

    3-year Peaks

    Andrei Kirilenko: 3.0 blocks/game
    Karl Malone: 0.7 blocks/game
    Tyson Chandler: 1.2 blocks/game

    AK47 blocked over 50% more shots than Malone and Chandler combined! Hell, Tracy McGrady even averaged more blocks than Karl Malone in his 3 year peak (1.1 blocks/game).

    With the penetraters on my team, it's paramount to have a great rim protector, especially when your wing defense is noticeably weak. Would you at least agree with this statement?
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    this is a really good matchup. However for me, Oscar-penny-Tmac just seems like it has to many overlapping skills to be truly maximized. Kinda like the Lebron-wade duo, but with an extra guy and not the same talent. if you put Dwight on Malone like RR wants to do that just pulls him from the paint. I think its much better to leave him on Dwight and trust Grant to do his best on Malone. Curry isn't a great cover for any of those guys, but its not like any of those guys are known defensive stoppers either. I wouldn't be surprised for many if this game fell down how you feel about Cunningham with some focusing on his inefficiencies while some liking his pretty insane stats.



    *side note shouldn't cunningham have to play 30 minutes or do you get a pass since RR's team isn't playing by the rules either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhopisthename View Post
    this is a really good matchup. However for me, Oscar-penny-Tmac just seems like it has to many overlapping skills to be truly maximized. Kinda like the Lebron-wade duo, but with an extra guy and not the same talent. if you put Dwight on Malone like RR wants to do that just pulls him from the paint. I think its much better to leave him on Dwight and trust Grant to do his best on Malone. Curry isn't a great cover for any of those guys, but its not like any of those guys are known defensive stoppers either. I wouldn't be surprised for many if this game fell down how you feel about Cunningham with some focusing on his inefficiencies while some liking his pretty insane stats.



    *side note shouldn't cunningham have to play 30 minutes or do you get a pass since RR's team isn't playing by the rules either.
    While people don't know Oscar/Penny/TMac to be Kawhi Leonard or Scottie Pippen on wing defense, they were still known for being above-average defenders. Furthermore, with Curry being the only threat from 3, it'll make guarding Clyde and Cunningham a bit easier to defend as well. Everyone knows the blue prints to limit Curry in the playoffs, play physical with him, Oscar Robertson in real life even mentioned this.

    I heard the criticism of "overlapping" skills during the draft. Is passing/play-making, rebounding (they are all above-average rebounders), being an above average defender, being athletic, and having a good shoot really something you DON'T want all your players to have? By the way, those who think this way, please answer... I don't mean to ask this rhetorically.

    Before LeBron and Wade teamed up, he was a 32.9% 3-point shooter for his career (Penny shot 38.6% on 4.8 attempts in his playoff peak). Wade was a 28.9% 3-point shooter (TMac was a 37.3% 3-point shooter in his peak). Was the fact LeBron and Wade were both good defenders, great rebounders, good play-makers, and both athletic hurt them? Absolutely not... what hindered them was their spacing. LeBron James adapted his game and worked on his shot. From the time he went to Miami, LeBron has shot 35.9% from 3.

    When people use the cliche that they have "overlapping skillsets", are they wanting some of their players to be crappier passers? Do they want them to not be able to rebound extremely well? Do they want them to be average or below average defenders? Do they want them to have a terrible shot? What skills do Oscar/Penny/TMac need to be worse at so that they aren't criticized for having "overlapping skills"?
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

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    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

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    Lmfao @ the usual “click” votes

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