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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    Ehh you are overstating this.... its still just basketball, and again I'd say a lot of what you are saying has to do with the NBA's rule changes that significantly cater to more offense (which was their intention)
    2017-2018 - 21.7 FTA/G
    2007-2008 - 24.9 FTA/G
    1997-1998 - 26.3 FTA/G

    We are seeing less and less free throw attempts every year. It's hard to equate if it's better or worse, because if offense is up, defense is down. If defense is up, offense is down. It goes both ways. We can't pit former players against current players to really know.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    2017-2018 - 21.7 FTA/G
    2007-2008 - 24.9 FTA/G
    1997-1998 - 26.3 FTA/G

    We are seeing less and less free throw attempts every year. It's hard to equate if it's better or worse, because if offense is up, defense is down. If defense is up, offense is down. It goes both ways. We can't pit former players against current players to really know.
    Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

    What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

    Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

    Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

    Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

    In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set
    Jackie Bradley Junior.... that is all

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

    What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

    Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

    Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

    Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

    In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set
    20 years ago, there were no offenses like these Warriors and Rockets. Guys creating their own shots and teams passing the ball 300 times in a game. Durant makes fade-aways like Jordan did, yet, pulls up 3's in transition. Harden beats you to your spots offensively and creates his own shots or lay ins. The pick and roll and pick and pop is completely perfected.

    Look at Kevin Durant only.

    Dude is 7 foot tall and shoots middie's with guys in his face no problem because his release is so high. And he is an incredibly efficient shooter. Yet, can attack the basket, pull the 3 in transition, or just go the full scale of the court like he just did and create a dunk over 3 guys.

    He looks like Jordan with Bird's jump shot and is a 7 footer. And yet, isn't even considered the best player in the league.

    Yes, there were things that made offense easier, but these guys are significantly more talented than what existed 20 years ago.

    It's foolish to think it's anywhere close to what it was 20 years ago.

    These guys literally train year round, have all their meals and training mapped out, have much higher bball iq, have front offices and coaches showing them efficient opportunities, and international players.

    Of course it's a significantly more talented and better league. And not just in the physical leap. Their better basketball players too, by a lot.


    If you hadn't watched an NBA game in 20 years, and just watched the Rockets and Warriors, not talking other elite players. Just Warriors and Rockets.

    No answer for the offense that these guys just create. Durant is hitting every thing with great defense on him. Harden is creating his own offense, role players are taking one dribble deep three's.

    Fans of the 90's never saw someone like Kevin Durant.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 05-14-2018 at 09:29 PM.

  4. #109
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    ^^^ always most impressed by the last thing he has seen


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    ^^^ always most impressed by the last thing he has seen


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    Not even close.

    It's just a reality. The game, as in every sport, is significantly better than it was 20 years ago, and 20 years before that. And in 20 years, it'll be much better than it is today.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    20 years ago, there were no offenses like these Warriors and Rockets. Guys creating their own shots and teams passing the ball 300 times in a game. Durant makes fade-aways like Jordan did, yet, pulls up 3's in transition. Harden beats you to your spots offensively and creates his own shots or lay ins. The pick and roll and pick and pop is completely perfected.

    Look at Kevin Durant only.

    Dude is 7 foot tall and shoots middie's with guys in his face no problem because his release is so high. And he is an incredibly efficient shooter. Yet, can attack the basket, pull the 3 in transition, or just go the full scale of the court like he just did and create a dunk over 3 guys.

    He looks like Jordan with Bird's jump shot and is a 7 footer. And yet, isn't even considered the best player in the league.

    Yes, there were things that made offense easier, but these guys are significantly more talented than what existed 20 years ago.

    It's foolish to think it's anywhere close to what it was 20 years ago.

    These guys literally train year round, have all their meals and training mapped out, have much higher bball iq, have front offices and coaches showing them efficient opportunities, and international players.

    Of course it's a significantly more talented and better league. And not just in the physical leap. Their better basketball players too, by a lot.


    If you hadn't watched an NBA game in 20 years, and just watched the Rockets and Warriors, not talking other elite players. Just Warriors and Rockets.

    No answer for the offense that these guys just create. Durant is hitting every thing with great defense on him. Harden is creating his own offense, role players are taking one dribble deep three's.

    Fans of the 90's never saw someone like Kevin Durant.
    Lol.....

    Pretending the league Durant is putting up his stats in is anything at all like what Bird or MJ did is like comparing Russell Wilson's stats to Peyton Manning's.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I see a lot of comments about offense being way up. The average points per game per team has been over 105 the past two years. From 1976-1993, the points per game exceeded 105 every single year. So even the nostalgia, if it goes back before the mid 90s is wrong that this is all of a sudden an offensive league compared to its history.

    And we complain about flopping and weak play and all that but thatís kind of crap too. Free throw attempts per game are at their lowest point in league history. Sure, 3pt attempts are way up, but free throws being down is a great thing in my mind. Free throws (besides ones to ice a game with 5 seconds left) are the most boring shot in basketball.

    People are just so hooked on nostalgia that itís impossible to remember the crap times of the bygone days as well. Itís all about ascetics. Itís easy to remember back to all the cool crap Jordan did. Or Reggie Miller crushing the Knicks and stuff like that. But on the flip side, did we really love throwing it in to random big who get bashed and shoot 15 free throws a game?

    I mean, we remember Jordanís big playoff moments. But was the 1996 first round matchup of Atlanta vs Cleveland really great basketball in a great era? Or are we just focusing on a couple big players in big games when we talk about how awesome the old days were?
    Its about how they get their looks too. Back then simplistic isos did the trick, nowv you need the skill of limitless range

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

    What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

    Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

    Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

    Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

    In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set
    The defensive 3 seconds rule was coupled with allowing ďzoneĒ defenses and it actually resulted in a net positive for defenses. Prior to the defensive 3 second rule,illegal defense could be called at any point if you were in the paint and not actively guarding someone. You also couldnít double someone without the ball.

    So defensive 3 seconds wasnít a rule to cater to the offense. It was actually a rule to cut out the almost strictly iso ball that ended up happening in the 90s and early 2000s.

    And saying rules cater to the offense now but didnít back then doesnít explain why the league finally eclipsed 105 pts per game per team last year for the first time in 20+ years, but from Ď76-Ď93 it eclipsed 105 every single season. Scoring in the nba over the last 5 or so years is up compared to the mid to late 90s. But compared to the 80s to early 90s, itís flat to actually down a little bit in terms of total scoring.

    And people always mention hand checking being legal for Jordanís era, but completely overlook the quality of wing defender during that era. During Jordanís era, outside of him and pippen, the actual wing defenders were fairly weak. Most of the all defensive teams were filled with pgs, pfs and c. Part of that was the types of metrics voters loved back then, but part of that was a testament to the quality of wing defender. I mean, Jordan beat up in guys like Russell and hornacek when he was beating the jazz. This warriors team has at least 3, maybe 4 or more players who are better wing defenders than the guys Utah threw at Jordan. The warriors may be a bit of an exception, especially since those guys can play both ways, but just about every team in todays nba has those long, hyper athletic wing stoppers that were fairly rare in Jordanís day. So even though they chat hand check, these guys donít need to hand check to play decent defense because of their length and athleticism.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Lol.....

    Pretending the league Durant is putting up his stats in is anything at all like what Bird or MJ did is like comparing Russell Wilson's stats to Peyton Manning's.
    I literally made that post not stating a single stat.

    It's what he can physically do on the court. It's unparalleled in the 90's

    It doesn't matter how you defend him, he's scoring on you.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

    What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

    Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

    Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

    Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

    In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set
    Nobody's kidding themselves, the rule changes alone do not explain it all. MLB is actually less predictive than nba in many years. What doyou base any of this on

  11. #116
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    I don't think the rule changes account for hardly any of the exciting offensive play we see now. To me its more about analytics and guys realizing that the more open 3 point shots you take the more likely you are to score a lot of points. Why take a 17 to 19 foot 2 pointer when you can take a step back and get rewarded 1.5 times for your effort. The boring isolation ball of the mid 90s was just ugly basketball.

  12. #117
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    It's not as simple as shooting threes and not long two's. Why has European defenses caught up to the pace and space. They launch threes at a high clip too, same with college the three ball has went up all around? It's just simply more easier to get to spots and manipulate defenders the way the nba has the rules set up. It's not the only factors but it's a very significant factor. I am sure analytics has helped with telling everyone their sweet spots, but these rules allow coaches and players to get to their sweet spots easier.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    I don't think the rule changes account for hardly any of the exciting offensive play we see now. To me its more about analytics and guys realizing that the more open 3 point shots you take the more likely you are to score a lot of points. Why take a 17 to 19 foot 2 pointer when you can take a step back and get rewarded 1.5 times for your effort. The boring isolation ball of the mid 90s was just ugly basketball.
    Itís probably the evolution of man. I hear itís pretty quick


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Itís probably the evolution of man. I hear itís pretty quick


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    You believe in evolution

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heediot View Post
    It's not as simple as shooting threes and not long two's. Why has European defenses caught up to the pace and space. They launch threes at a high clip too, same with college the three ball has went up all around? It's just simply more easier to get to spots and manipulate defenders the way the nba has the rules set up. It's not the only factors but it's a very significant factor. I am sure analytics has helped with telling everyone their sweet spots, but these rules allow coaches and players to get to their sweet spots easier.
    College rules are actually more lax than the nba with contact permitted while driving. And the reason nba players hit more 3s is because they are the best of the best college players. I mean, watch a pro game. How many guys actually miss wide open 3s? Itís relatively rare. If you watch college, guys are missing wide open 3s at a much higher clip. Itís not as much about defenses, itís more of the quality of players. Plus college has been flooded with one and dones, who tend to be worse shooters as a whole.

    College allows a full zone defense, which the nba does not. But generally speaking, zones arenít better at stopping penetration but tend to give more open 3s. So I donít think thereís anything within the rules that allows for more made 3s in college. I donít watch European ball, so I canít comment on what theyíre doing.

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