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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You can't speak for anyone individually as to why he/she might or might not believe in God.
    I can definitely speak on why they MIGHT. Have you never had a personal opinion on someone else's thoughts?

    I'm not claiming I know the entirety of the basis of someones thoughts, just mentioning what I've observed
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    No, they are not. One understanding is based on a book that is understood as being from God. A book that has checked out and been verified historically, contains not a single error, and will continue to prove itself through fulfilled prophecy. The other is an opinion based on... what? How you feel?
    1) The book has never been demonstrated to have been from God mainly because God itself has never been demonstrated to even exist.
    2) The book has not been verified historically. For instance, Jews were never slaves in Egypt and Exodus never happened. Neither did a global flood. There are many factual errors. Indeed, the Bible is merely a book of tales that many people, including yourself BELIEVE to be the word of God. That doesn't make it so.
    3) The so-called Prophesies are innocuous at best.
    4) You choose to believe in a book; i choose to believe what I believe. When it comes to a belief in God, those are equally valid, equally weighted beliefs.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I can definitely speak on why they MIGHT. Have you never had a personal opinion on someone else's thoughts?

    I'm not claiming I know the entirety of the basis of someones thoughts, just mentioning what I've observed
    No, I can't tell you why someone believes something without asking him first. I suppose i can guess but what's the point?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    No, I can't tell you why someone believes something without asking him first. I suppose i can guess but what's the point?
    So if a guy has a crappy day at work and then goes home and smacks his wife up, his wife is in no position to comment that he was projecting his anger? She gotta run it by him first?

    Maybe she's wrong, maybe she's right, but she can certainly have an opinion on his thought process without having to ask him, wouldn't you agree?

    I don't buy that you're even buying your own argument here...
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    So if a guy has a crappy day at work and then goes home and smacks his wife up, his wife is in no position to comment that he was projecting his anger? She gotta run it by him first?

    Maybe she's wrong, maybe she's right, but she can certainly have an opinion on his thought process without having to ask him, wouldn't you agree?

    I don't buy that you're even buying your own argument here...
    Lol because thatís exactly the same thing. Smh

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Lol because thatís exactly the same thing. Smh
    Regarding the idea behind it, yes, it is literally the exact same thing. Don't let the dramatics of the analogy confuse you. You are trying to dismiss me having an opinion of anyone's internal thinking, yet we all do it all the time, matter of fact science does it all the time in the context of both psychology and quantifying and predicting future behaviors based on past experiences. Yet you are telling me that if I haven't asked someone something, it renders any ideas of mine on the topic moot. That ain't kosher and I know you know that.
    Last edited by nastynice; 06-13-2018 at 02:45 AM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin13697 View Post
    How far are you along into coming to a conclusion about the world and universe? Do you believe you'll ever come to a undisputable conclusion? Have you considered that God could have 'did it'?
    I believe in a frightening world full of early deaths (2 out of 8 children surviving to adulthood is a common ratio for the human race before the advent of applied science) it's quite reasonable for them to have made up a satisfactory answer in the sky based on hope and faith. Who doesn't want to "live forever" if you follow some rules?

    It's the onset of the enlightenment, science, and secular humanism that has brought the human condition to the current level. Over population, counter waves of ignorance/fear from the right leading to increasing numbers living under authoritarian regimes is attacking this base. The egocentric judgemental right in this country actually thinks they should hold judgement over womens bodies... all in the name of something humans created, not the other way around.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    My mother died of cancer at the age of 37 (I was 10), and watching what I remember of how horrible it was for her, I concur. It was the beginning of the end of any religion for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    That must have been a rough experience

    I'm very curious that why would a negative incident lead you to not believing in God, if you don't mind sharing your thoughts I'm very curious to hear

    Like I've seen messed up stuff and it's made me angry at God, but it never crossed my mind that this must mean God is false, I don't really follow the reasoning...
    Sorry for not responding earlier, but I was away for a mini-vacation (Baltimore ó got to see the Orioles and Red Sox 12-inning extravaganza).

    As for the question, Iíd first have to offer a disclaimer: I was 10 ó 1 month shy of my 11th birthday ó so I donít think my beliefs were well settled at that point. At my motherís behest, I was baptized and had been going to an Episcopal Sunday School as a kid, but I can say with some certainty that Christianity was not a big thing in our household.

    Then my mother was diagnosed in April and (if there is a silver lining) died in August, so it was relatively brief, though agonizing.

    So, I wasnít angry at God at the time because I didnít really have a strong belief in God to begin with. My mother died, we threw dirt on her coffin on a rainy day in Providence, RI, and that was pretty much the end of it. I remember some people saying that she was with God or something to that effect, which meant very little to me, seeing as I just saw her being put in the ground.

    As I matured and experienced more and more people preaching that God loves me and everything that happens is part of Godís plan and that my mother is looking down on me from heaven, and so on, I just finally came to the realization that in fact there is no God.

    Life went on as it was before.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Sorry for not responding earlier, but I was away for a mini-vacation (Baltimore ó got to see the Orioles and Red Sox 12-inning extravaganza).

    As for the question, Iíd first have to offer a disclaimer: I was 10 ó 1 month shy of my 11th birthday ó so I donít think my beliefs were well settled at that point. At my motherís behest, I was baptized and had been going to an Episcopal Sunday School as a kid, but I can say with some certainty that Christianity was not a big thing in our household.

    Then my mother was diagnosed in April and (if there is a silver lining) died in August, so it was relatively brief, though agonizing.

    So, I wasnít angry at God at the time because I didnít really have a strong belief in God to begin with. My mother died, we threw dirt on her coffin on a rainy day in Providence, RI, and that was pretty much the end of it. I remember some people saying that she was with God or something to that effect, which meant very little to me, seeing as I just saw her being put in the ground.

    As I matured and experienced more and more people preaching that God loves me and everything that happens is part of Godís plan and that my mother is looking down on me from heaven, and so on, I just finally came to the realization that in fact there is no God.

    Life went on as it was before.
    Thank you. I cannot begin to imagine what it was like to lose a mom at such a young age when she must have be3en your whole world. I know how much i depended on my mom when i was 11.

    And no, nastynice, I couldnt have guessed any of this. Everyone has a unique journey.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    1) The book has never been demonstrated to have been from God mainly because God itself has never been demonstrated to even exist.
    2) The book has not been verified historically. For instance, Jews were never slaves in Egypt and Exodus never happened. Neither did a global flood. There are many factual errors. Indeed, the Bible is merely a book of tales that many people, including yourself BELIEVE to be the word of God. That doesn't make it so.
    3) The so-called Prophesies are innocuous at best.
    4) You choose to believe in a book; i choose to believe what I believe. When it comes to a belief in God, those are equally valid, equally weighted beliefs.
    Most scholars agree that Jesus lived on this Earth. Even atheists and those who don't believe that he was God agree. His birth, following amongst disciples, death by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans, the continued discipleship and persecution of his disciples are all considered by most to be historical facts. Jesus is also mentioned in several other historical records, including references of his execution by Roman politicians, all of which fit within the timeline of the Gospel. There was never even a debate among the people of that time about whether or not Jesus existed. The only debate was whether or not Jesus was who he said he was. Some of those records that exist outside of the Bible called him a sorcerer, which is incredibly interesting, as it would lend credence to the Bible's account of Jesus performing miracles. These are all facts that cannot be debated.

    The idea that Jews never existed in Egypt at the time is false. Egyptian texts have provided an accurate account of claims made in the Bible for that period of time. The Biblical account actually predates the Egyptian texts, which reference exact names places that appeared in the Biblical account of the Exodus. Semitic names were included in the Onomasticon Amenope, used in place of the original names, which stands as proof that Jews lived in Egypt at the time the Bible says they did.

    There's a lot of false information out there from people desperate to disprove the Bible. Recently an article came out claiming that science had finally disproven the Bible because we now have proof that descendants of the Caaninites live and the Bible says that God ordered them to be annihilated by the Israelites, which is true. What the article foolishly omitted was that the Bible also says that the Israelites failed to do what God had ordered, so the Caaninites were never annihilated.

    Historical texts and archaeological records support the history of the Bible. It's only a "book of tales" to those who either ignorantly dismiss the evidence or just never bothered to research the Bible's validity themselves. Either way, the personal feelings/beliefs of some like yourself are not in any way as valid as a book that has been supported by historical facts and evidence.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Most scholars agree that Jesus lived on this Earth. Even atheists and those who don't believe that he was God agree. His birth, following amongst disciples, death by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans, the continued discipleship and persecution of his disciples are all considered by most to be historical facts. Jesus is also mentioned in several other historical records, including references of his execution by Roman politicians, all of which fit within the timeline of the Gospel. There was never even a debate among the people of that time about whether or not Jesus existed. The only debate was whether or not Jesus was who he said he was. Some of those records that exist outside of the Bible called him a sorcerer, which is incredibly interesting, as it would lend credence to the Bible's account of Jesus performing miracles. These are all facts that cannot be debated.

    The idea that Jews never existed in Egypt at the time is false. Egyptian texts have provided an accurate account of claims made in the Bible for that period of time. The Biblical account actually predates the Egyptian texts, which reference exact names places that appeared in the Biblical account of the Exodus. Semitic names were included in the Onomasticon Amenope, used in place of the original names, which stands as proof that Jews lived in Egypt at the time the Bible says they did.

    There's a lot of false information out there from people desperate to disprove the Bible. Recently an article came out claiming that science had finally disproven the Bible because we now have proof that descendants of the Caaninites live and the Bible says that God ordered them to be annihilated by the Israelites, which is true. What the article foolishly omitted was that the Bible also says that the Israelites failed to do what God had ordered, so the Caaninites were never annihilated.

    Historical texts and archaeological records support the history of the Bible. It's only a "book of tales" to those who either ignorantly dismiss the evidence or just never bothered to research the Bible's validity themselves. Either way, the personal feelings/beliefs of some like yourself are not in any way as valid as a book that has been supported by historical facts and evidence.
    A few of the stories recounted in the Bible are likely to have been based on actual historical events, though I very much doubt that the Bible serves as any kind of reliable or comprehensive history.

    But note your own method for authentication: the use of corraborating external documentation from sources outside of the group of believers (i.e., Jesus mentioned by the Romans; the Jews referred to in Egyptian texts).

    Anything like that for God?

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    A few of the stories recounted in the Bible are likely to have been based on actual historical events, though I very much doubt that the Bible serves as any kind of reliable or comprehensive history.

    But note your own method for authentication: the use of corraborating external documentation from sources outside of the group of believers (i.e., Jesus mentioned by the Romans; the Jews referred to in Egyptian texts).

    Anything like that for God?
    Jesus was God. That was the reason he was crucified. He claimed that he was God and people were... dare I say... triggered.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Jesus was God. That was the reason he was crucified. He claimed that he was God and people were... dare I say... triggered.
    Thereís a difference between being something and claiming to be something.

    If Jesus definitely WAS (IS) God, and there is corraborating evidence that Jesus existed, then we could extrapolate that there is evidence that God exists.

    If Jesus only CLAIMED he was (is) God, and there is corraborating evidence that Jesus existed, then there is still no evidence that God exists and we too can only CLAIM that God exists.

    Iíll bank on the latter.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    I answered your question. lol

    If God just decided, "I'm not going to be present in this universe anymore and just disappeared," the result would be that depravity and evil would flourish.

    The example of people who reject God was just an example of what the absence of God looks like in life. Disappearance and abandonment will result in the same consequence. Life without God would give way to evil, sin, and depravity. C'mon man. It wasn't difficult to follow.
    I am an example of what the absence of God looks like. Can't follow a fallacy.

    If God disappeared, "poof". Would you become corrupt? Do you realize people can live by a moral code without God? Do you realize that people would win football games, land jet planes full of passengers in ice storms, and survive critical illnesses without him? You don't need God or prayer to have love and happiness.

    What you're telling me is that fear of God and/or the consequences of his existence keeps you - or others in line - and yet millions of atheists with no fear of God are moral and decent human beings. If depravity exists it exists with or without God, as does morality.
    Last edited by Dugmet; 06-13-2018 at 03:44 PM.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    1) Most scholars agree that Jesus lived on this Earth. Even atheists and those who don't believe that he was God agree. His birth, following amongst disciples, death by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans, the continued discipleship and persecution of his disciples are all considered by most to be historical facts. Jesus is also mentioned in several other historical records, including references of his execution by Roman politicians, all of which fit within the timeline of the Gospel. There was never even a debate among the people of that time about whether or not Jesus existed. The only debate was whether or not Jesus was who he said he was. 2) Some of those records that exist outside of the Bible called him a sorcerer, which is incredibly interesting, as it would lend credence to the Bible's account of Jesus performing miracles. These are all facts that cannot be debated.

    3) The idea that Jews never existed in Egypt at the time is false. Egyptian texts have provided an accurate account of claims made in the Bible for that period of time. The Biblical account actually predates the Egyptian texts, which reference exact names places that appeared in the Biblical account of the Exodus. Semitic names were included in the Onomasticon Amenope, used in place of the original names, which stands as proof that Jews lived in Egypt at the time the Bible says they did.

    There's a lot of false information out there from people desperate to disprove the Bible. Recently an article came out claiming that science had finally disproven the Bible because we now have proof that descendants of the Caaninites live and the Bible says that God ordered them to be annihilated by the Israelites, which is true. What the article foolishly omitted was that the Bible also says that the Israelites failed to do what God had ordered, so the Caaninites were never annihilated.

    Historical texts and archaeological records support the history of the Bible. It's only a "book of tales" to those who either ignorantly dismiss the evidence or just never bothered to research the Bible's validity themselves. Either way, the personal feelings/beliefs of some like yourself are not in any way as valid as a book that has been supported by historical facts and evidence.
    1) He lived on Earth? What do secular scholars think about the resurrection story?
    2) There is no secular account of this man performing miracles. Indeed, the first accounts of Jesus didn't appear until 40 years after his death. Would seem that a man performing "sorcery" would have made headlines much sooner, no?
    3)Archeology and history professors strongly disagree. They point out that Jews back then were nomadic tribes, not Egyptian subjects. And as for Egyptian texts, that's a riot, considering the Egyptians have denied this account from day 1. Alleged Egyptian texts would be the smoking gun to prove the case against them. But that's never been done.

    Noah's Ark? Evolution disproving Adam and Eve? Anything about that?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

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