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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    Sure, too many moving parts. But the largest ones have been indentified here. KP's health being factors #1, 2 and 3.

    The other point is the one that's been getting made here all year. For a team trying to develop the youth, we didn't actually get around to doing that until the end there. And there isn't much to develop. We traded Willy and now we're talking about moving Frank. Dotson showed some flashes, Burke was impressive but lets see if can keep it up. That's really it. Frank was disappointing this year. Can he improve? Sure, there's obviously some special potential there, but he wasn't good this year.

    We REALLY NEED Kanter to opt out to at least try to take a shot on adding another prospect or two.
    Who would you sign if Kanter opts out?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    He finished a league-worst 3.1 wins worse than replacement level by my metric, registering the worst true shooting percentage (.437) for any player who saw more than 1,000 minutes of action. On the plus side, Ntilikina was solid at the defensive end of the court, ranking 34th among point guards in defense, according to ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM). Uh, there's only 30 teams...lol

    No bueno. Ok, can we now stop with the elite defense stuff. Do something while the kid has value or else...
    Feel like we should stop taking these stats at face value when we know that Frank is literally the top defender (or was at one point late in the season) in terms of points per possession in defending the pick and roll.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    Feel like we should stop taking these stats at face value when we know that Frank is literally the top defender (or was at one point late in the season) in terms of points per possession in defending the pick and roll.
    That was just PnR defense and it didn't call Frank a bad defender at all. All of those things can be true, especially since it seems to be saying that his offense was that much of a negative that it didn't matter.

    I agree though that all of these stats can't be taken at face value, but I think that goes even more so for the +/- and on/off splits since those are more relative to where he stands on the team, a team that isn't very talented at that, and not necessarily where he stands vs. players around the league regardless of age.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    Sure, too many moving parts. But the largest ones have been indentified here. KP's health being factors #1, 2 and 3.

    The other point is the one that's been getting made here all year. For a team trying to develop the youth, we didn't actually get around to doing that until the end there. And there isn't much to develop. We traded Willy and now we're talking about moving Frank. Dotson showed some flashes, Burke was impressive but lets see if can keep it up. That's really it. Frank was disappointing this year. Can he improve? Sure, there's obviously some special potential there, but he wasn't good this year.

    We REALLY NEED Kanter to opt out to at least try to take a shot on adding another prospect or two.
    I guess my point was that every team in the league is pretty much one big move away from being "close". Sure, sometimes get to the top via gradual improvement, year to year, but most teams make a splash at some point. The right "splash", KP returns and Knicks are right there. Not saying I'm expecting that to happen, but there is no way to put a # of years on how "far" the Knicks are because of how drastically things change in this league. If you were to tell me that we would do nothing but build via draft picks and gradual improvement and tweaks I would say we are pretty far. But I doubt we are going to be THAT patient and tank for 2-3 more years to do that.

    I don't really agree on the youth development thing. I think that's a popular talking point without much to it. We really don't have much young talent, and the young talent we do have got the type of burn I would expect them to given their age, raw-ness, status etc. I am not a believer at all that simply dumping more minutes on young unproven players is how you develop them. And none of us have any idea how guys like Frank, Dotson, even Burke are developing until we see what their year-over-year improvement looks like next year. How can I say those guys aren't developing at this point?

    I'm not really dissappointed in Frank - he is raw as **** with his offensive skills. He proved he is going to be in this league for a long time for his defense alone, and showed me enough of a foundation offensively to have high hopes for him long term. That's all you can ask for with the second youngest player in the NBA.

    I do agree that it would be HUGE for this team to somehow be able to add a young player like Hezonja or someone else via FA. Dear God let Kanter opt out please.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I guess my point was that every team in the league is pretty much one big move away from being "close". Sure, sometimes get to the top via gradual improvement, year to year, but most teams make a splash at some point. The right "splash", KP returns and Knicks are right there. Not saying I'm expecting that to happen, but there is no way to put a # of years on how "far" the Knicks are because of how drastically things change in this league. If you were to tell me that we would do nothing but build via draft picks and gradual improvement and tweaks I would say we are pretty far. But I doubt we are going to be THAT patient and tank for 2-3 more years to do that.

    I don't really agree on the youth development thing. I think that's a popular talking point without much to it. We really don't have much young talent, and the young talent we do have got the type of burn I would expect them to given their age, raw-ness, status etc. I am not a believer at all that simply dumping more minutes on young unproven players is how you develop them. And none of us have any idea how guys like Frank, Dotson, even Burke are developing until we see what their year-over-year improvement looks like next year. How can I say those guys aren't developing at this point?

    I'm not really dissappointed in Frank - he is raw as **** with his offensive skills. He proved he is going to be in this league for a long time for his defense alone, and showed me enough of a foundation offensively to have high hopes for him long term. That's all you can ask for with the second youngest player in the NBA.

    I do agree that it would be HUGE for this team to somehow be able to add a young player like Hezonja or someone else via FA. Dear God let Kanter opt out please.
    I pretty much agree with this, but I do think they need to show that type of patience. It doesn't mean to solely go that route, it just means not to force anything and make the right move rather than the first move...if that makes sense.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    Feel like we should stop taking these stats at face value when we know that Frank is literally the top defender (or was at one point late in the season) in terms of points per possession in defending the pick and roll.
    all stats do are reinforce what we see with our eyes. Every sane person who saw Frank play his season saw him try hard on defense, excelled in some areas, didn't get as many steals as he could've, very raw offensively and needs extensive time developing his jumpshot and dribble penetration.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    He finished a league-worst 3.1 wins worse than replacement level by my metric, registering the worst true shooting percentage (.437) for any player who saw more than 1,000 minutes of action. On the plus side, Ntilikina was solid at the defensive end of the court, ranking 34th among point guards in defense, according to ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM). Uh, there's only 30 teams...lol

    No bueno. Ok, can we now stop with the elite defense stuff. Do something while the kid has value or else...
    STRENGTHS.
    Age
    FT%

    Weaknesses
    Off Rebound
    Box Plus/Minus
    Off Box Plus/Minus
    Def Box Plus/Minus
    Win Shares
    Off Win Shares
    Rebounds
    Blocks
    Def Rebounds
    Assists
    Steals
    EFG%
    Def Win Shares

    No names but this is the player u want us to draft. How is that any better? Oh I forgot it is potential.
    Last edited by cssdmark; 04-13-2018 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    That was just PnR defense and it didn't call Frank a bad defender at all. All of those things can be true, especially since it seems to be saying that his offense was that much of a negative that it didn't matter.

    I agree though that all of these stats can't be taken at face value, but I think that goes even more so for the +/- and on/off splits since those are more relative to where he stands on the team, a team that isn't very talented at that, and not necessarily where he stands vs. players around the league regardless of age.
    I agree with you generally. The WARP was clearly an indicator of his offensive deficiency. Pelton even says that WARP doesnít accurately account for defense, which makes sense considering there is no way Frank is THE worst player in the NBA.

    But +\- stats definitely described Frank as a bad defender. 34th among point guards - a position notoriously bad on defense. You simply canít square Frankís PnR defense with those #s, and I havenít seen anything from his non-PnR and off-ball defense to suggest that the numbers should be skewed that badly.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cssdmark View Post
    STRENGTHS.
    Age
    FT%

    Weaknesses
    Off Rebound
    Box Plus/Minus
    Off Box Plus/Minus
    Def Box Plus/Minus
    Win Shares
    Off Win Shares
    Rebounds
    Blocks
    Def Rebounds
    Assists
    Steals
    EFG%
    Def Win Shares

    No names but this is the player u want us to draft. How is that any better? Oh I forgot it is potential.
    At the collegiate level or the NBA? This wasn't addressed to me, but if it's on the collegiate level then I think I know who it is and for these reasons he's not one of my top choices. However, I'm not sure you can compare across college and the NBA. There are players that end up being better NBA players than they were in college and vice versa.

  10. #25
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    Dec 2009
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    8,486
    Quote Originally Posted by cssdmark View Post
    STRENGTHS.
    Age
    FT%

    Weaknesses
    Off Rebound
    Box Plus/Minus
    Off Box Plus/Minus
    Def Box Plus/Minus
    Win Shares
    Off Win Shares
    Rebounds
    Blocks
    Def Rebounds
    Assists
    Steals
    EFG%
    Def Win Shares

    No names but this is the player u want us to draft. How is that any better? Oh I forgot it is potential.
    I must admit that I really don't get your post. I want Knox at 9 and Vanderbilt late first. Are you saying these guys won't be as good a pro as Frank? I'll take that bet all day every day.

    I like the idea of what a KP/Knox/Vanderbilt line would look like in 3 yrs. Knox and Vandy haven't gotten rid of their baby fat yet..lol Knox will have shoulders like Charles Smith and probably weigh 230 can alternate between SF/PF and Vandy will be able to guard just about everybody.
    Last edited by Bivory; 04-13-2018 at 02:15 PM.

  11. #26
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    Jul 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    I agree with you generally. The WARP was clearly an indicator of his offensive deficiency. Pelton even says that WARP doesnít accurately account for defense, which makes sense considering there is no way Frank is THE worst player in the NBA.

    But +\- stats definitely described Frank as a bad defender. 34th among point guards - a position notoriously bad on defense. You simply canít square Frankís PnR defense with those #s, and I havenít seen anything from his non-PnR and off-ball defense to suggest that the numbers should be skewed that badly.
    I get it...my guess is that it's off ball defense, one on one defense, etc. We see him make plays all the time, but I don't think we can say he's a lock down defender the entire time. We've seen him get beat one on one. We've seen him lose his man off the ball and we've seen him struggle chasing his man around screens. We've also seen him be good and even great at all of these things.

    I don't doubt that he'll be an elite defender, but I don't think he's there yet. I think it's a case of the flashes overshadowing everything else, especially since none of us are tracking every single play. He has more than just flashed on defense also, but there have been so many defensive possessions throughout the season to just base it on the ones that stand out. I don't think we should be upset if metrics aren't showing that he's already one of the best defenders in the league. I more look at that as proof that he will eventually be.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I get it...my guess is that it's off ball defense, one on one defense, etc. We see him make plays all the time, but I don't think we can say he's a lock down defender the entire time. We've seen him get beat one on one. We've seen him lose his man off the ball and we've seen him struggle chasing his man around screens. We've also seen him be good and even great at all of these things.

    I don't doubt that he'll be an elite defender, but I don't think he's there yet. I think it's a case of the flashes overshadowing everything else, especially since none of us are tracking every single play. He has more than just flashed on defense also, but there have been so many defensive possessions throughout the season to just base it on the ones that stand out. I don't think we should be upset if metrics aren't showing that he's already one of the best defenders in the league. I more look at that as proof that he will eventually be.
    Fair points.

  13. #28
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    NYC BABY
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    it is important to let KP heal fully and develop this core we have now.

    I personally think next season should be a wash. dont worry about trades. just develop and catch the lottery in 2019.

    Bridges/Trae/Sexton + Frank + THJR + Tray + Kornet + Beasley + Kanter = we will be in the same ranking next year 2019 (9 - 11th place)

    1. Boston 2. Philly 3. Raptors 4. Cleveland 5. Milwaukee 6. Washington 7.Pacers 8. Detroit 9. Heat 10.Knicks 11. Hornets
    ONCE A KNICK ALWAYS A KNICK ALLSTAR 2013@KnicksBrooklyn

  14. #29
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    so far you need the hubble telescope

  15. #30
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    If we make a few more key moves akin to signing fringe starters to 70 million dollar contracts like Tim Hardaway, then we are well on our way towards a potential perennial top 12 seed.

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