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Thread: Tom Thibodeau

  1. #16
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    I agree Tib's has to make some changes but he gets us a stud in Butler and solid player in Gibson. Butler is hurt down the stretch but we still make the playoffs. He needs to get an offensive mind and play a longer rotation but he got us out of the rut that we have been in for 15 years. Fired? C'mon that is ridiculous. Wolves are in a good spot. Let us understand at this point it is the Warriors and everyone else.... we are just a pretty good .. everyone else. A hell of a lot better than being a crappy team we were before he got here.

  2. #17
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    Changed the title, this can just be the main thread for Thibs talk. Complaints, discussion, contract etc

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by specialiststeve View Post
    I agree Tib's has to make some changes but he gets us a stud in Butler and solid player in Gibson. Butler is hurt down the stretch but we still make the playoffs. He needs to get an offensive mind and play a longer rotation but he got us out of the rut that we have been in for 15 years. Fired? C'mon that is ridiculous. Wolves are in a good spot. Let us understand at this point it is the Warriors and everyone else.... we are just a pretty good .. everyone else. A hell of a lot better than being a crappy team we were before he got here.
    He was given the best young core in the league arguably and this is what it looks like with most of our assets used up now. We went from best young core in the league to a team with vets etc. barely making the playoffs or even with Butler were a middle seed like Portland/Utah/OKC etc. who don't make noise if healthy. We might be in a "good" spot in the sense we finally have a playoff roster. We are not in a good spot coming from the best young core in the league when he took over etc. to now. I have covered just how poor that first season was and why much of it was related to Thibs decision making. That lead to the entire shift from building a young core etc. to trading it away in a win now move. Then you get reports of issues with Towns and them letting one of his favorite trainers/coaches etc. and how players had openly complained about being tired/minutes. He has serious questions so far in both GM and head coach role.

    We are arguably a top 5 player away from really competing for a title right now without many assets to get one. That is probably assuming some development from Towns and definitely some from Wiggins too. That is a problem unless your entire goal was to simply make the playoffs even if there was far more potential. There is a lot of work to be done but no assets to really start that progress along. Right now best case is we sell Andrew Wiggins for a star if he still has that value.

    It's not the end of the world like he ruined us but Thibs should for sure be on the hot seat, he has very very little leash left. We better get some more talent in here and have a better season next year or else I think he should be out too. He cashed in 2 top 7 picks, Lavine, Rubio and all of our open cap space to get Butler/Taj/Teague so while those guys are good there was also a cost. I think this is a very telling offseason/year and unless it looks like there is very serious progress he could/should be gone.

  4. #19
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    I mean, we can blame Thib's all we want. Glen Taylor is the real problem. You can't give that much control to a coach (allowing him to run the front office as well). Clearly Thib's is short sighted.

    Philly surpassed us as the best young core, and would have without us trading away Lavine/Dunn, just throwing that out there...But, the points made here are true. We are now what we are. Internal growth is the only way for improvement, we can't depend on our draft picks at this point to be star talent, we pick too low.

    Towns is a player I was very high on 2 years ago, but I have soured some. He lacks consistency so badly. Age isn't important in modern NBA. At all. He is going into year 4, and has he improved at all the last 2 seasons? Meh. Wiggins, I have gone at length over. He is a waste of space, and his contract will kill us.

    This years team was an eyesore to watch. I rarely had any fun watching them, probably missed 50 games entirely, and this is by far the least i have ever cared about this team. Much of that can be attributed to Thib's, but mostly Taylor. I could care less about this roster. Not a single player sticks out as someone I can pour my fanhood into. Even Butler is boring as ****, he plays like an old man at the Y, where you don't see anything special, but his results are excellent. But he clearly isn't anywhere near the tier of a player that leads you to chips, and I don't see anyone else on this roster that will climb to that place.

    All that hype, all that work, all that excitement. We are right back to the early 2000s, where we have a nice team that will pump out 50 wins and get killed early the playoffs. Meh, I will pass

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #20
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    ^^^^

    So sad Hawk that after all these years of discussion about needing to find players that can win and be productive we get them and you are so negative.

    I agree that Tib's has his warts that I addressed but not being all in on Towns? Not improved? You really haven't watched much as he is likely a top 15 player in the league........He is a great player that will only get better. He does need to get more mentally and physically tough that showed in the playoffs but we all need to understand there is a learning curve here.

    As far as all the talk of a "great young core" wasted.... not buying it! Year after year we had the old Cubs saying of maybe next year that never came. Changing over the roster to make it a winning team and likely a 50 win team next year and folks are complaining? WOW. Feels like winning the lottery and complaining about the taxes...

    May want to reassess what you are wanting. Young core with Wiggins and Towns that should keep us competitive for the next 5 years..... Butler a great 2 way player that can lead the way. The other parts are movable but those 3 will keep us in the Win column more that the Loss column.

    I would prefer more movement on offense... more use of the bench.... continued improvement from Wiggins and Towns with continued leadership from Butler. If we can get the ball moving ala GS and use the bench more I think this team will be a better watch and also actually win more. All are pretty attainable.

    Are we going to challenge GS.... not likely... like everyone else.

    I will stick with being optimistic versus being negative and pessimistic.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by specialiststeve View Post
    ^^^^

    So sad Hawk that after all these years of discussion about needing to find players that can win and be productive we get them and you are so negative.

    I agree that Tib's has his warts that I addressed but not being all in on Towns? Not improved? You really haven't watched much as he is likely a top 15 player in the league........He is a great player that will only get better. He does need to get more mentally and physically tough that showed in the playoffs but we all need to understand there is a learning curve here.

    As far as all the talk of a "great young core" wasted.... not buying it! Year after year we had the old Cubs saying of maybe next year that never came. Changing over the roster to make it a winning team and likely a 50 win team next year and folks are complaining? WOW. Feels like winning the lottery and complaining about the taxes...

    May want to reassess what you are wanting. Young core with Wiggins and Towns that should keep us competitive for the next 5 years..... Butler a great 2 way player that can lead the way. The other parts are movable but those 3 will keep us in the Win column more that the Loss column.

    I would prefer more movement on offense... more use of the bench.... continued improvement from Wiggins and Towns with continued leadership from Butler. If we can get the ball moving ala GS and use the bench more I think this team will be a better watch and also actually win more. All are pretty attainable.

    Are we going to challenge GS.... not likely... like everyone else.

    I will stick with being optimistic versus being negative and pessimistic.
    I really disagree with the idea people need to reassess what we are wanting when at the end you openly admit we aren't going to even challenge GS most likely. You can have your opinion but just because you wanna have rose colored glasses on doesn't mean others need to reassess their own approach imo. If you just want playoffs that's fine, I get it after so many bad years. I wasn't sitting around those years hoping for an 8 seed so I could then be happy though either and I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting more (especially given the great situation Thibs walked into).

    Part of the problem even as it relates to Towns comes back to Thibs. Wiggins shot 1-2 more shots per game than Towns despite being far less efficient with his chances. Why? Same reason we started out so slow the first year when Thibs ran the offense more through Wiggins than Ricky early on, Thibs ball. When most teams have a 7 footer on a guard they normally attack that in the post. When we have a top 30 player in the post on a guard almost a foot shorter we let Teague attack the center on the perimeter. I agree with you Towns has improved overall etc. but our coach is part of the issue on why those improvements haven't shown quite as much. He isn't maximized in the right way offensively despite being the key piece to our future which is really odd to me. Learning curve I understand but the way we run the offense and use some of our players is an issue imo leading to Towns not taking next steps in peoples mind.

    I agree fully on a different type of offense. We should have more wins than losses which is nice but we also don't have assets to really get to a truly competitive spot (like competing for a title) outside of that trio and Wiggins is a bit too far off to rely on as a legit piece worth his salary etc too. The core isn't wasted because all the talent is gone, it's wasted because we chose to play this middle ground where we can't compete with GS but lost assets for the future to go into win now mode despite again not being able actually compete for a title (Teague/Taj/Butler additions etc. using younger guys/picks/cap).

    In the end Thibs has issues even coaching this team of players he has decided to move forward with. Even if you like making the playoffs you can at least see how we are now locked into this core without cap/young assets to trade in larger moves type of thing while being ridiculously far off from a team like GS. If GS is even around for 3 more years that leaves us with a 32 y/o Butler (likely at max, also if he even resigns), 35 taj and 33 year old teague type of thing unless we don't resign (and by then with Wiggins/Towns contract we won't have cap to use even if let go). So basically we won't compete with GS now even when being overly optimistic but in a few years when they hopefully are getting older/breaking up we will... Have an aging group relying fully on Wiggins/Towns and a declining Butler to lead the way.

    I get saying that you are optimistic and happy we made the playoffs even if I don't fully agree. I don't get telling others to reassess what they want if just making the playoffs doesn't feel like enough to them given everything else mentioned. There are serious flaws/issues both in how Thibs has managed this team as GM and how he has coached our players which shouldn't just be ignored because of a playoff run imo. I don't think that's a very unreasonable take even if a bit pessimistic based on all the issues mentioned from Thibs.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by specialiststeve View Post
    ^^^^

    So sad Hawk that after all these years of discussion about needing to find players that can win and be productive we get them and you are so negative.

    I agree that Tib's has his warts that I addressed but not being all in on Towns? Not improved? You really haven't watched much as he is likely a top 15 player in the league........He is a great player that will only get better. He does need to get more mentally and physically tough that showed in the playoffs but we all need to understand there is a learning curve here.

    As far as all the talk of a "great young core" wasted.... not buying it! Year after year we had the old Cubs saying of maybe next year that never came. Changing over the roster to make it a winning team and likely a 50 win team next year and folks are complaining? WOW. Feels like winning the lottery and complaining about the taxes...

    May want to reassess what you are wanting. Young core with Wiggins and Towns that should keep us competitive for the next 5 years..... Butler a great 2 way player that can lead the way. The other parts are movable but those 3 will keep us in the Win column more that the Loss column.

    I would prefer more movement on offense... more use of the bench.... continued improvement from Wiggins and Towns with continued leadership from Butler. If we can get the ball moving ala GS and use the bench more I think this team will be a better watch and also actually win more. All are pretty attainable.

    Are we going to challenge GS.... not likely... like everyone else.

    I will stick with being optimistic versus being negative and pessimistic.
    Towns really hasn't improved that much. He can hit the 3, but he is such a terrible defender, still, and it limits him so badly. That and he doesn't give consistent effort. The tools are there, he just isn't progressing as much as I thought he would. Plus it doesn't matter, Thibs just dribbles the air out of the ball with his PG/Wings, and doesn't even use Towns correctly. For christs sakes, Wiggins still leads our team in shot attempts per game, despite being the LEAST EFFICIENT STARTER WE HAVE.

    We have no money, and so many needs. Towns and Butler (maybe) will absorb so much cap along with Wiggins, what are the options? We have zip depth, zip shooting, and our defense is still terrible.

    Sure, with incremental improvements, and if Butler sticks, we could be a 55 win team in a couple of years, and make the 2nd round. My biggest gripe continues to be this team isn't fun to watch for me. I hated the early 90's style, and that is what we play. I am not going to say Lavine would ever be a competent defender, or that Rubio was the answer. I know we also needed to trade some assets before they financially matured. This team just isn't my cup of tea. Thibs is annoying, his archaic style bores me, and we play so uninspired.

    Just not a good time for Wolves basketball for me personally. I will always keep my eye on them and support them. But I can't invest day to day time anymore.
    Last edited by Hawkeye15; 06-14-2018 at 10:41 AM.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  8. #23
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    So you invest a bunch when we suck and when we are decent you bail. Don't get it.

    As far as Tib's ... again I understand he has some warts as I have said and do believe he has mismanaged in some area's that folks have addressed. That I cannot disagree with. What I do disagree with is that in order to change the losing culture it took a lot... which Tib's did. Getting better as a team and Tib's as a coach is needed to take the next step up the ladder. I would guess if you ask Tib's he would say he needs to be better. He has made folks/players accountable. Wiggins and Towns didn't really like it but in their growth should hopefully make them better. They are both still very young and have a chance to get better together. They could both flop but I will choose to believe they will improve as well as the team.
    If others choose to believe the sky is falling that is fine... but do feel sorry for those with that kind of thinking.

  9. #24
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    I definitely see both sides!


    Side note though: Kat is a piece that you can build a contending team around, unlike when we had Love. He will be a top 10 player, and imo he is the main reason that we should still be optimistic for our future. There may not be a single player under 25 that I would rather have right now and he is still 3 years away from turning 25.

  10. #25
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    More Thibs shade...

    http://www.startribune.com/report-ji...ins/485693621/

    -Butler uneasy with playing with Wiggins.
    -Teague went to Thibs suggesting Tyus play more (more smoke to Thibs playing starters too much)
    -Tyus contemplated requesting a trade

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by specialiststeve View Post
    So you invest a bunch when we suck and when we are decent you bail. Don't get it.

    As far as Tib's ... again I understand he has some warts as I have said and do believe he has mismanaged in some area's that folks have addressed. That I cannot disagree with. What I do disagree with is that in order to change the losing culture it took a lot... which Tib's did. Getting better as a team and Tib's as a coach is needed to take the next step up the ladder. I would guess if you ask Tib's he would say he needs to be better. He has made folks/players accountable. Wiggins and Towns didn't really like it but in their growth should hopefully make them better. They are both still very young and have a chance to get better together. They could both flop but I will choose to believe they will improve as well as the team.
    If others choose to believe the sky is falling that is fine... but do feel sorry for those with that kind of thinking.
    Not wanting to speak for others, but I don't think it's as black and white as you're suggesting.

    The Butler trade made us better in the short-term, no doubt, but where do the improvements come from for us to take the next step? We have no money to spend, and I don't think we can get away with calling Wiggins 'very young' any more.

    This year will be very, very testing.

    As far as Wiggins, I've personally lost any faith that he will improve to the level we once expected. He could be a 25ppg scorer on a lottery team, or an 18-20ppg scorer on a playoff team. That's about all we should realistically expect.

    Wiggins has now played over 12,000 NBA minutes. There would be incredibly few examples of players who decided to switch it on after that much basketball.

    FA's are going to be another interesting one. Aside from signing for a bloated contract, which we don't have the $ to offer, I can't think of a lot of other reasons players would want to sign here, knowing their minutes would be a fraction of those they could get elsewhere.

    Towns is still a positive, but we need to get him more touches, someway, somehow. At worst, he's a top 3 offensive C in this league. Even if he doesn't get to the levels some of us expected (which he still may), he's an obvious asset.

    From as near as a year ago, we had probably the best young playing list in the league. Now, we pretty much have Towns and Butler. I love Tyus, but he should not be our third most valuable asset, which may well be the case by next season.

    It's hard to label him as a fail, but the Patton pick doesn't appear to have worked out. A 20-year old 7-footer with two foot surgeries before he's clocked 5 NBA minutes is a worry. He also doesn't really fill a position of need. I also can't see him getting any minutes next season with Thibs as coach, behind Towns and Dieng.

    So for me, as negative as some of the above may sound, I just think we could be stuck here in mediocrity for a while, which is not a great spot to be. We'll probably float around the 7th-10th spot as long as Jimmy's here, but I can't even imagine this team getting past the first round at this point.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by specialiststeve View Post
    So you invest a bunch when we suck and when we are decent you bail. Don't get it.

    As far as Tib's ... again I understand he has some warts as I have said and do believe he has mismanaged in some area's that folks have addressed. That I cannot disagree with. What I do disagree with is that in order to change the losing culture it took a lot... which Tib's did. Getting better as a team and Tib's as a coach is needed to take the next step up the ladder. I would guess if you ask Tib's he would say he needs to be better. He has made folks/players accountable. Wiggins and Towns didn't really like it but in their growth should hopefully make them better. They are both still very young and have a chance to get better together. They could both flop but I will choose to believe they will improve as well as the team.
    If others choose to believe the sky is falling that is fine... but do feel sorry for those with that kind of thinking.
    I personally don't think the sky is falling in. I just think we likely wasted such a strong nucleus of youth.

    Look, part of why I am at where I am at, is GS (well Durant) has made the league a formality for a few years. So why bother? I have a 15 month old daughter, that took a lot of time away from my fanhood, and that is not a complaint, it simply means I really don't care as much about sports anymore, until she gets into them of course. My wife is a huge Wild fan, and hates basketball, so I am trying to watch a little more Wild. The way we play, is not pleasing to the eye. In an era of spread out, quick passing, sweet shooting, and rangy defense, we play like we are stuck in the year 1993, which won't keep up without staunch defense. Speaking of, we literally go weeks letting teams get anything they desire. I swear to god, how many times do we see a simple ball reversal break us down entirely? I am sick of watching Wiggins and Towns on defense, and I am sick of watching the same broken *** **** on offense. It's boring man. And at the end of the day, if you don't have massive potential to get better today, it doesn't matter anyways.

    A coaching change would help, sure. But it's not just that. Wiggins needs to go. We need a real bench that we use. We need guys who make defenses care when they are floating around. We are just so far off being competitive for anything real, and we now have zero money and limited options. It's just same ol' **** being a MN sports fan.
    Last edited by Hawkeye15; 06-18-2018 at 10:08 AM.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  13. #28
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    I think this board (and fans in general) have fought harder for or against regarding Wiggins than anything he has fought for on a basketball court. Dude needs to be gone. He is a total waste of potential, and will never be what we need from him. He is paid to be a superstar going forward, so even average starter doesn't cut it (which he is far off from). Towns needs to stop being babied. If he won't guard anyone, then don't give him a max, let him hit RFA, and keep him if need be. I am sick of players getting any and everything they want.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleJesus View Post
    More Thibs shade...

    http://www.startribune.com/report-ji...ins/485693621/

    -Butler uneasy with playing with Wiggins.
    -Teague went to Thibs suggesting Tyus play more (more smoke to Thibs playing starters too much)
    -Tyus contemplated requesting a trade
    1. You mean to say Wiggins isn't as good as Thibs seems to think with his regular usage etc?

    2. You mean to say that while everyone was complaining about rotations and Tyus needing to play more even Tyus himself AND the guy he would replace (Teague) talked to Thibs about the same thing?

    I guess this report just confirms what most of us have been thinking about Thibs.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I think this board (and fans in general) have fought harder for or against regarding Wiggins than anything he has fought for on a basketball court. Dude needs to be gone. He is a total waste of potential, and will never be what we need from him. He is paid to be a superstar going forward, so even average starter doesn't cut it (which he is far off from). Towns needs to stop being babied. If he won't guard anyone, then don't give him a max, let him hit RFA, and keep him if need be. I am sick of players getting any and everything they want.
    This could be worse than what Thibs has done so far, oh man you must be pissed about our situation. No way man, this is just getting ridiculous don't let Thibs or GS or whatever ruin the one bright spot we still have.

    He definitely still struggles on defense but it has been getting better over time. He isn't going to be elite on that end but he is already a top 15 offensive player basically (rpm has him 12th on O 16th overall). If he were given the ball more with major mismatches instead of playing the dumb Thibs ball he would look even better too. In an offense not catered to him he is having an incredible impact for such a young player.

    He is the guy we should be offering the big max to for sure. I mean we already did with Wiggins so it's whatever but not doing so for Towns after that would be basically insane from our FO.

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