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  1. #511
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    Honestly I think Hader has no chance at the Cy Young. I'd argue he's not even the best reliever on our team (Jeffress is). Its a simple fact of innings. Hader just doesn't have the same impact that Nola, Degrom, Kershaw, or Scherzer do. Some of his stats are crazy (SO/9, H/9 WHIP, etc) but I just think its easier to put up crazy stats when only pitching 1-2 innings at a time.

    I used to be on the Aaron Nola wagon, but as the Phillies have fallen back a bit not sure their record is going to be enough to give him the edge. My voting would go.

    #1 Degrom, #2 Scherzer, #3 Nola, #4 Freeland, #5 Corbin, #6 Jeffress

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Honestly I think Hader has no chance at the Cy Young. I'd argue he's not even the best reliever on our team (Jeffress is). Its a simple fact of innings. Hader just doesn't have the same impact that Nola, Degrom, Kershaw, or Scherzer do. Some of his stats are crazy (SO/9, H/9 WHIP, etc) but I just think its easier to put up crazy stats when only pitching 1-2 innings at a time.

    I used to be on the Aaron Nola wagon, but as the Phillies have fallen back a bit not sure their record is going to be enough to give him the edge. My voting would go.

    #1 Degrom, #2 Scherzer, #3 Nola, #4 Freeland, #5 Corbin, #6 Jeffress
    OK. I disagree with some of this. Look, Jeffress has been outstanding, but Hader has been better. For one, Jeffress success, getting saves is conducive to Hader being good. Hader also has that it factor with striking out a ton of guys and going multiple innings regularly. He has been in one-run games and gets 7, 8, 9 outs. I remember a game earlier this year when Guerra went 5, Hader 3, Knebel 9th and Brewers beat Rox 2-0. Those type of games are impactful. He does things not a lot of relievers can do. I do agree DeGrom and Scherzer are clearly ahead, but I just said get votes. I put him ahead of Corbin. Freeland has been severely underrated. Again, Jeffress has been really outstanding, but Hader has just been better IMO.

  3. #513
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    Its not really about save numbers though. Jeffress has a far better ERA and appears in a lot more games than Hader. Their innings pitches are almost identical so the concept of Hader going 2+ I don't think gives him an edge. Jeffress has done that at times too.

    Some of the FIP stats heavily favor header, mostly because his WHIP is so crazy low. But Hader has been susceptible to the homerun at times which drives his ERA up. Jeffress has given up basically nothing all season. Just looking at WAR Jeffress is a 3.1 WAR player whereas Hader is only 2.6 (both are historically great numbers for a reliever so its not a knock on either).

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Its not really about save numbers though. Jeffress has a far better ERA and appears in a lot more games than Hader. Their innings pitches are almost identical so the concept of Hader going 2+ I don't think gives him an edge. Jeffress has done that at times too.

    Some of the FIP stats heavily favor header, mostly because his WHIP is so crazy low. But Hader has been susceptible to the homerun at times which drives his ERA up. Jeffress has given up basically nothing all season. Just looking at WAR Jeffress is a 3.1 WAR player whereas Hader is only 2.6 (both are historically great numbers for a reliever so its not a knock on either).
    I get what you're saying but the Brewers are constantly in close games and Hader is in those situations back-to-back innings far more often. Hader also has those sexy K numbers and funky delivery and is far more talked about. I do think he's in such high stress situations in multiple different innings 6-9. Again Jeffress has been phenomenal too and don't want to knock either. I love JJ and how fired up/amped he is with the emotions flowing every appearance. I just think Hader is demoralizing. Blows people away and does it multiple innings which is a big deal. He is doing what not many relievers do. JJ has done it a few times but nowhere near like Hader who is doing it in close games also and not letting it phase him.

  5. #515
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    They're both great. I just appreciate Jeffress having pitched in so many games and given up so little this season. To Come in that often and never really have a bad night is amazing. Hader has about the best WHIP I've ever seen, his strikeout are good but its not much different than what Knebel did last season.

    Speaking of Knebel, if he can get things going our bullpen is scary good in the playoffs. When you figure Soria is our 4th best option thats insane. With the extra rest we can really shorten some ball games. I said at the beginning of the season I would compare our team to the World Series Royals team and I think that still applies. On paper we may not seem to have the pitching, but when you only need starters to go 4-5 innings everything changes.

  6. #516
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    And I also look at what the Astros did at times last year too. The peacock McCullers stack they did in the playoffs was awesome. We donít quite have that quality of guy, but we have some decent guys who can each go 2-3 innings. Something like a peralta/burnes stack is risky, but also has the potential to give you 5-6 really good innings.

    Craig did a really good job early in the year of doing some unique bullpen things with guys going multiple innings and using guys in interesting ways (like when jeffress was the fireman who came in for any bad situation, whether it was the 5th or 8th.) He got away from that. I donít know if that was due to struggles from some, like knebel or if we just didnít think the pen could handle a full year of usage like that. But if we get back to some of those types of things, we can be a very interesting matchup. And with the 13 man positional group we can field for a playoff roster, we can steal a pinch hit at bat earlier in the game.

  7. #517
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    Just when I say Hader has no chance at the Cy Young BBTN does a piece saying he should be the NL MVP. Shows what I know haha. I still think he's got not shot at either.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Just when I say Hader has no chance at the Cy Young BBTN does a piece saying he should be the NL MVP. Shows what I know haha. I still think he's got not shot at either.
    Better chance than JJ and I love JJ but I think Hader doing it multiple innings is more valuable. Being basically relied on and counted on for multiple innings and putting zeroes up that often is crazy. JJ has been great this year too. Maybe Brewers can bring Luc back for some magic too next year. Maybe he's only really good in MKE too. Saw someone on Twitter clamoring for Luc this year, it's like Pina and Kratz have been better. Much better defensively. Luc also sub-.300 OBP and .323 slugging. woof.

    I agree Hader isn't going to win either but his season is more valuable to a team and pen IMO. The return of the goal line package infield. But wow this lineup is stacked, would be even more stacked with Kratz in! Cain-Yeli-Aggy-Shaw-Braun-Moose-Schoop-Pina

  9. #519
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    Disagree. I think jeffress has been more valuable. Hader has been awesome and has better name recognition, so he probably will get more votes (although his tweet fiasco wonít help), but I think jeffress has been better. Iíd take hader over jeffress as a pitcher, since his season is likely more repeatable and he has room for growth, but strictly on who was better this year, to me it was jeffress. And crediting hader for the multi innings but leaving out the incredible job jeffress did early in the year as the firefighter who came in for horrible situations was a bit unfair. Jeffress has had his share of unique usage situations as well and he thrived.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Disagree. I think jeffress has been more valuable. Hader has been awesome and has better name recognition, so he probably will get more votes (although his tweet fiasco wonít help), but I think jeffress has been better. Iíd take hader over jeffress as a pitcher, since his season is likely more repeatable and he has room for growth, but strictly on who was better this year, to me it was jeffress. And crediting hader for the multi innings but leaving out the incredible job jeffress did early in the year as the firefighter who came in for horrible situations was a bit unfair. Jeffress has had his share of unique usage situations as well and he thrived.
    Not taking anything away from Jeffress. He's been outstanding. I think you are somewhat right in that he's more noticed but he's still been better. Hader is something MLB doesn't see often, a relief pitcher multi-innings high leverage guy...who else does that in the regular season? Miller did. The Brewers are also 22-0 when he pitches two innings. There is a reason not many closers or late inning guys go multi-innings. They aren't that effective and it's asking a lot to get 6 outs in late innings, though it hasn't seemed it for Hader.

    Look Jeffress has been amazing too. If Hader say finishes 6th, JJ should finish 7th or 8th in Cy Young. They've both been stellar. JJ early in the season came in with bases loaded nobody out. Hader has made many of the late innings even one run games look easy. Happy they are in the Brewers pen.

  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    Not taking anything away from Jeffress. He's been outstanding. I think you are somewhat right in that he's more noticed but he's still been better. Hader is something MLB doesn't see often, a relief pitcher multi-innings high leverage guy...who else does that in the regular season? Miller did. The Brewers are also 22-0 when he pitches two innings. There is a reason not many closers or late inning guys go multi-innings. They aren't that effective and it's asking a lot to get 6 outs in late innings, though it hasn't seemed it for Hader.

    Look Jeffress has been amazing too. If Hader say finishes 6th, JJ should finish 7th or 8th in Cy Young. They've both been stellar. JJ early in the season came in with bases loaded nobody out. Hader has made many of the late innings even one run games look easy. Happy they are in the Brewers pen.
    I don't think its that crazy that he goes multiple innings because he was brought up to be a starter. I still think he'd be more valuable if he only went 1 but was able to go more often. Sucks that you have to sit him for 2 days between appearances.

    Anyways, who says MLB position players can't bunt it where they want. What a thing of beauty. I am pretty sure CC was reading my posts and realized I was making too much sense. "Bunt we will" He exclaimed! Its a 2 RBI double in the stat sheet boys.

  12. #522
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    Thing with Hader is you still need guys like jeffress. With a guy like jeffress, you can slot him into the 9th and go with a more tradional pen if you want. Not saying thatís good or bad, but just saying that haders inability to go back to backs and sometimes needing two days means you still need really good tradional relievers too.

    Iím very interested in haders future. We sort of had to back off him for a while as it seemed he got a little overworked. I wonder if 80 innings will always be his limit or if they think he builds up to 100. Or if they train him to go to a more tradional closer role.

  13. #523
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    It wouldn't surprise me if they try and get him stretched back into a starter. His secondary pitch command has gotten much better. I still consider him mainly a 2 pitch guy but his changup is coming along and I would think a guy like Hader could easily vary his fastball if he needs more pitches. Its not hard to adjust from a straight fastball to mixing in a cutter, sinker, 2-seam, etc. You can be basically a fastball pitcher and still vary it up plenty. Combine that with a slider and he could be solid. A 3.50 ERA starter is worth more than a 2.00 ERA reliever.

  14. #524
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    Hader wasn't really brought up to be a starter though. He was brought up because he was ready if in the pen. Then they realized he probably is much more effective in the pen most likely. It's hard for a two-pitch pitcher to really be that great. I have not seen him throw really any changeups. Not sure where you think he's gotten command of it. He can let it all out in his two innings. He walked a ton of hitters as a starter in the minors. I think he's found his role.

    Burnes on the other hand has been brought up to be a reliever this year but will be a starter next year. He does have three plus pitches and a decent fourth. The starters should get a boost from Nelson and Burnes in the rotation next year.

    Rough loss tonight. Cain and Yelich aren't at the heart of things they don't score much. Good to see Aguilar coming out. Seemed close last night but hard hit outs. Three hits tonight. Hopefully he can get hot again here.

  15. #525
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    What a player Christian Yelich is. My goodness. Man did the Brewers steal from the Marlins lol.

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