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  1. #16
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    It just seems a little flimsy to use the Democrats' support of sanctuary cities and dislike of ICE as a means to suggest they prefer the well-being of immigrants to American citizens. What immigrants are dealing with right now is a wholly unique phenomena and something incomparable to just about anything else. The federal government isn't siccing its secret police on other populations like they are on immigrants. Showing up at elementary schools to nab them when they drop their kids off for school. Showing up at court houses. Soccer practices. Anywhere and everywhere. Tearing children away from their parents.

    "California criminal Democrats (??) are not warning you to avoid arrest, but if you are not a citizen you are warned?"

    Like, what compares? Are you saying that Libby Schaaf, if she cares about Americans as much as immigrants, must warn gang members of potential ATF raids? Or that she must warn meth labs when the DEA is going to do some raids? Or tax criminals from the IRS? I mean, I know you're not (it's also funny when the right has to take the stance of "why don't you support more nonviolent criminals/"criminals", like it's something they actually think is right), but I don't know what you are saying.

    I guess weed is the only thing that I think that is even somewhat analogous, and frankly, hell yeah! Protect the weed industry!



    Lastly, and unrelated...there seems to be more and more "controversy" about those who decry "abolish ICE". ICE is newish agency created in the post-9/11 Patriot act/national security hysteria (nothing crafted in that hellscape should be considered pure). To pretend it is some integral and essential agency is a bit silly. I do think some of what they do is indeed necessary, but the level to which it has ballooned and what it has become under the later years of Obama and right on into Trump is an embarrassing stain on this country.
    this my sig

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Certainly:

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-l...225-story.html

    "I took an oath to enforce the laws that California has passed," California Atty. Gen. Xavier Becerra said in a statement Thursday after Spicer's comments. "If there is action from the federal government on this subject, I will respond in an appropriate way to protect the interests of California."

    http://freebeacon.com/issues/califor...tus-marijuana/

    A bill moving through the state legislature would prohibit state and local police from assisting federal agents who target marijuana businesses that are legal according to state law, unless those agents have a court order.

    California may become a sanctuary state for pot in addition to illegal immigration.


    I'm not sure CA is in the right here either, but the idea that they are only protecting illegal immigrants and not legal Californians from the federal government is simply erroneous. They are protecting the pot industry every bit as vigilantly as they are illegal immigrants from any attempt by the federal government to countermand their state laws.
    So, talk, not actual actions yet. I remember my friends in Oakland getting raided by feds 2 years ago and the state was nowhere despite everything they were doing being legal at the state level ... but that wasn't under Trump so maybe they didn't care when it was Obama's government taking the action?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    So, talk, not actual actions yet. I remember my friends in Oakland getting raided by feds 2 years ago and the state was nowhere despite everything they were doing being legal at the state level ... but that wasn't under Trump so maybe they didn't care when it was Obama's government taking the action?
    Maybe, or maybe the state can't stop everything. ICE and the Federal Government have deported illegal immigrants from California despite their Sanctuary status.

    Either way, California is going to protect their legal citizens from the federal government just as they are protecting illegal immigrants.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    It just seems a little flimsy to use the Democrats' support of sanctuary cities and dislike of ICE as a means to suggest they prefer the well-being of immigrants to American citizens. What immigrants are dealing with right now is a wholly unique phenomena and something incomparable to just about anything else. The federal government isn't siccing its secret police on other populations like they are on immigrants. Showing up at elementary schools to nab them when they drop their kids off for school. Showing up at court houses. Soccer practices. Anywhere and everywhere. Tearing children away from their parents.

    "California criminal Democrats (??) are not warning you to avoid arrest, but if you are not a citizen you are warned?"

    Like, what compares? Are you saying that Libby Schaaf, if she cares about Americans as much as immigrants, must warn gang members of potential ATF raids? Or that she must warn meth labs when the DEA is going to do some raids? Or tax criminals from the IRS? I mean, I know you're not (it's also funny when the right has to take the stance of "why don't you support more nonviolent criminals/"criminals", like it's something they actually think is right), but I don't know what you are saying.

    I guess weed is the only thing that I think that is even somewhat analogous, and frankly, hell yeah! Protect the weed industry!



    Lastly, and unrelated...there seems to be more and more "controversy" about those who decry "abolish ICE". ICE is newish agency created in the post-9/11 Patriot act/national security hysteria (nothing crafted in that hellscape should be considered pure). To pretend it is some integral and essential agency is a bit silly. I do think some of what they do is indeed necessary, but the level to which it has ballooned and what it has become under the later years of Obama and right on into Trump is an embarrassing stain on this country.
    I generally try not to support anything Special says, but he asked why Democrats want to defend criminals and your answer was that they cared about people ... so you took one question, made it universal, then questioned why I might note that Democrats don't seem to care at the same level for all people if that is your measure for care.

    It all seems pretty dumb to me. I'm all for states rights, but CA seems to be pushing the limit of the intent.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Because immigration is a federal issue. It's not about caring about protecting illegals or law enforcement wanting to help people who are here illegally. Would you expect the federal government to arrest people for violating state crimes? How would you feel if the FBI arrested someone for littering and detained them until the state police showed up?
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well outside the general argument, for California they probably care because they produce a ton of agricultural things like nuts and berries and illegal immigrants make up a lot of the farm hands that help bring those crops to consumers, and if all the illegal immigrants were all deported they wouldn't have enough Americans that would want to do those jobs without significantly raising the price and skyrocketing the price for consumers.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    I'm loving The Knife Media. I had a whole "**** you" fired up response, and then reading The Knife settled it.....a little.



    I'm not sure how many more times we need to explain just how many of these undocumented/illegal immigrants are law abiding, tax playing and hard working members of our society, some here for decades with families.

    Not criminals.

    They need a better pathway to citizenship, not ICE Gestapo breaking down their door and sending them to a foreign country.

    This isn't antiTrump politics, its basic human rights and respect for immigrants, which helped build who we are today.



    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    "Why do Democrats care about the well-being of people".

    Great question, FNK.
    no, don't twist what I said to fit something different.

    we are talking about criminals, not good law abiding citizens just trying to make a better life.

    we are talking about guys like Ivan Zamarripa-Castaneda..

    http://kdvr.com/2018/03/10/undocumen...d-out-of-jail/

    An undocumented immigrant charged with vehicular homicide after a fiery crash on March 3 bonded out of jail a week later and managed to avoid being detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    Ivan Zamarripa-Castaneda was wanted by ICE, but the Denver Sheriff's Department said Sunday that although the department alerted ICE in response to a request for release notification it received, that did not occur until 6:33 p.m.

    Zamarripa-Castaneda, 26, bonded out at 5:28 p.m.

    The sheriff's department called the delay"unacceptable" and said the sheriff has "ordered an immediate internal review to determine why established notification processes did not take place before Zamarripa-Castaneda was released."

    ICE Denver Field Office director Jeffrey Lynch called Zamarripa-Castaneda an "immigration fugitive."

    The sheriff's department notificed ICE that it would release Zamarripa-Castaneda at an unspecified time.

    Less than two hours later, ICE officers arrived at the sheriff's department to take Zamarripa-Castaneda into custody but were told he had already been released.

    ICE said it's working with the sheriff's department to avoid a similar situation in the future.

    "As law enforcement professionals, we should all have the same ultimate goal in mind -- to protect the public by combating criminals," Lynch said in a statement.

    "ICE helps fulfill that role by removing criminal aliens from the streets, and from the United States. Zamarripa-Castaneda is currently an immigration fugitive.”

    Denver and all other state agencies stopped honoring detainer orders from ICE in 2014 after courts ruled it was illegal.

    The crash happened near eastbound Interstate 70 and North Brighton Boulevard shortly before midnight on March 3. It involved a tractor trailer that caught on fire.

    The 57-year-old driver of the semitruck died. Officials have not released the victim's identity.

    Zamarripa-Castaneda, 26, then fled the scene of the accident, the Denver Police Department said. He was arrested at his home in the 2600 block of West Bayaud Avenue early March 4, prosecutors said.

    According to a probable cause affidavit, Zamarripa-Castaneda’s speech was slurred and his breath had a moderate odor of unknown alcohol.

    Zamarripa-Castaneda has been charged with one count of vehicular homicide-DUI and one count of leaving the scene of an accident resulting in death.

    He appeared in court on Friday morning for a second advisement before making bail on Saturday.

    A preliminary hearing is scheduled for April 2.
    Last edited by SpecialFNK; 03-12-2018 at 05:30 PM.

    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Maybe, or maybe the state can't stop everything. ICE and the Federal Government have deported illegal immigrants from California despite their Sanctuary status.

    Either way, California is going to protect their legal citizens from the federal government just as they are protecting illegal immigrants.
    "Going to" implies that it's a fact, all we have so far is talk. Regardless I think this is a dumb way to handle it. If CA wants to change the law they should challenge it in court. That's the way the system was designed to work.

  7. #22
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    I see you left the part out where it was ruled unconstitutional for the Colorado police to detain people on the detainers that ICE uses.

    You will need a change in the Constitution to change what Colorado Police can do.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    "Going to" implies that it's a fact, all we have so far is talk. Regardless I think this is a dumb way to handle it. If CA wants to change the law they should challenge it in court. That's the way the system was designed to work.
    Well that uncertainty works against you, you said that California wouldn't protect it's citizens in the same way they are protecting illegal immigrants. There is no proof they wouldn't, in fact it's more likely they would considering they said as much.

    Also, we have far more than talk, they actually drafted a bill and are voting on its, so they are taking proactive steps to protect their citizens in the same way they have for illegal immigrants.


    As for the comment they should challenge it in court, I agree. The better way to handle this is to challenge the ICE seizure measures in a court of law. I'm not arguing that California is in the right here, I'm simply showing it's erroneous to claim that California doesn't care or protect it's own citizens as much as illegal immigrants.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    why do the Democrats care so much about protecting these illegal criminals?

    I don't understand why law enforcement would not want to help have illegals that committed crimes be deported.

    this just seems like because Trump is against illegals/sanctuary cities, that those that are against Trump have to be for this by default.
    The issue is that with this approach there are many good, competent, and contributing people who are being deported or under very heavy stress of being deported

    One guy at a property I manage got deported by ice last week. The more active ice is around here, the worse it is for the state as a whole

    His wife wasn't tripping too hard tho. She was like, meh, he'll be back next week, lol. Them coyotes, boy
    Last edited by nastynice; 03-12-2018 at 08:24 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    no, don't twist what I said to fit something different.

    we are talking about criminals, not good law abiding citizens just trying to make a better life.

    we are talking about guys like Ivan Zamarripa-Castaneda..

    http://kdvr.com/2018/03/10/undocumen...d-out-of-jail/

    No, pretty sure you are the only one talking about defending guys like that. Why you need to project the character of someone like this upon all undocumented immigrants is baffling (well, we all know the real reason why since you had to have a special thread made for you where you could stamp your feet about how hard it is to be white in a country you're not from). Nothing you said was "twisted" in the slightest. You're the one making up this strawman of Democrats "caring about protecting" people like this. That you leap from the sound reasons provided to your questions to made up arguments like this is pathetic.

    Also, giving us some puff quotes from an ICE member lying about what ICE is concerned with (sure, they only target these type of criminals lololol) isn't very convincing.

    Stick to The Onion.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I see you left the part out where it was ruled unconstitutional for the Colorado police to detain people on the detainers that ICE uses.

    You will need a change in the Constitution to change what Colorado Police can do.
    I get that. But that's not the case for all of these incidents. Since you're talking about CO, let's look at a very recent incident that happened in CO.

    An illegal immigrant killed a truck driver while driving drunk and fled the scene. DPD found the guy, arrested him and saw that he had an ICE detainer. They let him out without notifying ICE well before the mandated three days allowed by law to hold him. And they did this intentionally.

    They didn't even need to notify ICE. Once he's entered into the system on his charge, the feds are automatically notified, hence why the let him out before ICE could get there even though they could've held the guy longer.

    You can argue all you want for constitutional rights, but they didn't have a single thing to do with this case and the same exact thing is happening in CA.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well that uncertainty works against you, you said that California wouldn't protect it's citizens in the same way they are protecting illegal immigrants. There is no proof they wouldn't, in fact it's more likely they would considering they said as much.

    Also, we have far more than talk, they actually drafted a bill and are voting on its, so they are taking proactive steps to protect their citizens in the same way they have for illegal immigrants.


    As for the comment they should challenge it in court, I agree. The better way to handle this is to challenge the ICE seizure measures in a court of law. I'm not arguing that California is in the right here, I'm simply showing it's erroneous to claim that California doesn't care or protect it's own citizens as much as illegal immigrants.
    I didn't say they wouldn't, I said they are not. I try not to make assumptions about what people will or will not do in the future.

    Drafting a bill is STILL talk. I'm talking to you right now in the vernacular even though I am typing, just like the people who authored a bill are talking. Until it's a law it's just talk.

    And I never claimed California doesn't care or protect it's citizens, merely that it appears that if you are a criminal in California it may be better to be an immigrant than a citizen.

    Every time I read the news I find one more case of stupid people in government doing stupid things that are outside the system the country was built on. Trump does it hourly it seems (or possibly even more) and the reaction of many other people in government has been to see if they can collectively out stupid him. It's really kind of sickening.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    It does appear democrats care more about the well-being of some people over others. If you are a California native criminal Democrats are not warning you to avoid arrest, but if you are not a citizen you are warned? That IS a little strange don't you think?
    The State also provides A LOT of handouts to poor illegals that they don't offer to actual residents.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well outside the general argument, for California they probably care because they produce a ton of agricultural things like nuts and berries and illegal immigrants make up a lot of the farm hands that help bring those crops to consumers, and if all the illegal immigrants were all deported they wouldn't have enough Americans that would want to do those jobs without significantly raising the price and skyrocketing the price for consumers.



    But that simply isn't true. For instance, California has helped the legal pot industry there avoid federal detection and arrest. They definitely warn and help Californian citizens avoid arrest against the Federal Government for things they don't agree with.
    The majority of those people are legal seasonal workers, I'm not sure getting rid of illegal immigration would have much of an impact on California farms so long as seasonal workers are still allowed.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Sessions is named after Jefferson Davis and PGT Beauregard, two men who rebelled against the United States of America due to many motivations, the most often cited by defenders (because it's far less heinous than the rest) being states rights.

    But whatever. We know hypocrisy is one of the few chief tenant of Trumpism that they remain consistent on. As always, hypocrisy no longer means anything.
    Come on man, we both know both sides get hypocritical in regards to states rights. And while states do have rights, immigration isn't a states rights issue, you can't have two different states with completely different immigration laws since someone can come into one state with lax laws and go to another with tougher laws later.

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