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View Poll Results: Which of the remaining players was best at their peak?

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Julius Erving

    1 8.33%
  • David Robinson

    4 33.33%
  • Chris Paul

    2 16.67%
  • Bill Russell

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    5 41.67%
  • Patrick Ewing

    0 0%
  • Jason Kidd

    0 0%
  • Steve Nash

    0 0%
  • Grant Hill

    0 0%
  • Rick Barry

    0 0%
  • Kevin McHale

    0 0%
  • Kawhi Leonard

    0 0%
  • James Harden

    0 0%
  • Isiah Thomas

    0 0%
  • Gary Payton

    0 0%
  • Another Player (Please Specify)

    0 0%
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Results 61 to 75 of 92
  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt:32224116
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    So John Stockton is an overrated passer with inflated stats? I have heard it all now.

    The Melo comment makes sense to anyone who knows CP3s history in New Orleans. At his peak his teams were slooow. It was partially a joke calling him "Melo-like" bc you would think a dynamic point guard talent like Paul would play a faster tempo ala Nash instead of favoring the half-court game. Similar to how my former favorite player Carmelo Anthony should have preferred playing a faster pace like the Olympics but he preferred pounding the ball in the half court. No comparison of actual talent. Cp3 >>>>> Melo
    You're just using strawman arguments now. You used USG% incorrectly. End of story.
    No you are arguing semantics by not letting this go when you said Stockton held on to the ball on every possession. That implies he is more like Iverson and less like... well John Stockton. That would mean he had a high usage. I pointed out that isn't true. He is a distributor and a creator. He is the all-time leader in assists for a reason. You can end the story however you want but you keep slipping in words like inflated and overrated to describe the all-time leader in assists and I am going to call you on it everytime.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    No you are arguing semantics by not letting this go when you said Stockton held on to the ball on every possession. That implies he is more like Iverson and less like... well John Stockton. That would mean he had a high usage. I pointed out that isn't true. He is a distributor and a creator. He is the all-time leader in assists for a reason. You can end the story however you want but you keep slipping in words like inflated and overrated to describe the all-time leader in assists and I am going to call you on it everytime.
    1) Inflated as I've already said, he had the possession on every play and Karl Malone to feed it to. If you're going to determine that the best passer is the one with the highest APG, go for it. But I simply made the case that it's not true.

    2) Possession of the ball = when your team has possession. yes, Stockton held the ball by far more than any other player on the team. I'm clearly referencing ball dominance here. You brought up USG% for no reason other than to justify that Stockton had a lesser USG%>CP3. DUH? So I'm not sure why you brought that up unless you misinterpreted the meaning of USG%. Now, I can care less whether you knew or didn't know. Fact is, USG% is not used to measure ball dominance.

    3) Is it a surprise that Karl Malone is #2 in points and Stockton is #1 in assists? These both supported each other and had they won rings, would be up much higher in All-Time lists. So if you're going to ignore the obvious in that Karl Malone was just as important to Stockton being #1 in assists and vice-versa, what's the point of discussing anything in context? This also has nothing to do with peak player... All-Time stats are a measure of longevity when we talk about all-time greats.

    4) When did I say Stockton was overrated? That's why I said you're using strawman arguments. You're not reading anything and just start a sentence with, "So, you think Stockton sucks? or, So, you think Stockton's breath stinks?" None of that came from me.

    Holding the ball every possession... Yes, he did do that. You don't average 15 assists per game unless you hog the ball.

  3. #63
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    Does anyone get penalized as much as Karl Malone and John Stockton amongst top players for playing with each other?

    Anytime you bring up Karl Malone's scoring it's "well yeah he had Stockton passing to him" and when you bring up Stockton it's "well yeah he was passing to Karl Malone".

    Apparently Malone would be a 20 PPG not a 30 PPG scorer if not for Stockton but Stockton would be an 8 APG PG instead of a 13 APG passer.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    No you are arguing semantics by not letting this go when you said Stockton held on to the ball on every possession. That implies he is more like Iverson and less like... well John Stockton. That would mean he had a high usage. I pointed out that isn't true. He is a distributor and a creator. He is the all-time leader in assists for a reason. You can end the story however you want but you keep slipping in words like inflated and overrated to describe the all-time leader in assists and I am going to call you on it everytime.
    Is it more likely that the all time leaders #s are inflated or deflated? Also when do the #s pass through the space time continuum?


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Does anyone get penalized as much as Karl Malone and John Stockton amongst top players for playing with each other?

    Anytime you bring up Karl Malone's scoring it's "well yeah he had Stockton passing to him" and when you bring up Stockton it's "well yeah he was passing to Karl Malone".

    Apparently Malone would be a 20 PPG not a 30 PPG scorer if not for Stockton but Stockton would be an 8 APG PG instead of a 13 APG passer.
    Yeah it's very weird



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    1) Inflated as I've already said, he had the possession on every play and Karl Malone to feed it to. If you're going to determine that the best passer is the one with the highest APG, go for it. But I simply made the case that it's not true.
    No you went further than that. Since you'll cry strawman I'll quote you:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    it's not impossible to inflate APG numbers. That never indicates who the better passer is.
    APG never indicate who the better passer is. There is a difference between saying there are exceptions and what you said.

    2) Possession of the ball = when your team has possession. yes, Stockton held the ball by far more than any other player on the team. I'm clearly referencing ball dominance here. You brought up USG% for no reason other than to justify that Stockton had a lesser USG%>CP3. DUH? So I'm not sure why you brought that up unless you misinterpreted the meaning of USG%. Now, I can care less whether you knew or didn't know. Fact is, USG% is not used to measure ball dominance.
    I'm not sure what the problem is here. First of all you conceded this:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    I never said CP3 wasn't ball-dominant.
    So if they both are ball dominant and both are leading their team to elite offenses... what is the problem? Why is this such a detriment to John Stockton's case?

    3) Is it a surprise that Karl Malone is #2 in points and Stockton is #1 in assists? These both supported each other and had they won rings, would be up much higher in All-Time lists. So if you're going to ignore the obvious in that Karl Malone was just as important to Stockton being #1 in assists and vice-versa, what's the point of discussing anything in context? This also has nothing to do with peak player... All-Time stats are a measure of longevity when we talk about all-time greats.
    These arguments hold very little credibility with me. Because John Stockton played with Karl Malone his assist numbers aren't as impressive? That's the implication of this post. I can't use John Stockton's ridiculous lead in all-time assists to promote his passing ability because he played with another hall of famer. Do I need to add a disclaimer to remind people that he played with Karl Malone? I think they know... What this really does is it forces me to push back and ask you a very simple question:

    What amount of assist would have been impressive? He's got 5 of the top six seasons:
    1. John Stockton* 14.54 1989-90
    2. John Stockton* 14.20 1990-91
    3. Isiah Thomas* 13.86 1984-85
    4. John Stockton* 13.76 1987-88
    5. John Stockton* 13.73 1991-92
    6. John Stockton* 13.63 1988-89

    But he's not the best pure passer of all-time? If he had averaged 16apg would that have been enough? If you wanna bring up Magic or Nash who ran uptempo offenses and created tons of easy baskets for teammates season after season that discussion we can.

    4) When did I say Stockton was overrated? That's why I said you're using strawman arguments. You're not reading anything and just start a sentence with, "So, you think Stockton sucks? or, So, you think Stockton's breath stinks?" None of that came from me.
    You said this :
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    it's not impossible to inflate APG numbers. That never indicates who the better passer is.
    and this:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Passing is overrated in terms of APG for Stockton.
    There is no other way to interpret that. If his stats are overrated than he is overrated. You even did it again in your last sentence!

    Holding the ball every possession... Yes, he did do that. You don't average 15 assists per game unless you hog the ball.
    "A ball hog is a derisive term for a player who handles the ball exclusively to the point of impairing the team." Thanks Wikipedia. Didn't want to have to bring you into this. For the entire 90s the Jazz were a top 10 offense and took 2 trips to the finals. How can you possibly accuse him of being a ball hog when he had Karl Malone almost doubling his scoring output and Jeff Hornacek outscoring him? Especially while he was leading a WINNING TEAM to 50 win seasons and two finals trips. I grew up in the 90s. Stockton was considered the ultimate pure point guard. Ran the offense to perfection. 82 games every year. Set his teammates up more often than any player in the history of the nba.

    You say he has overrated assist numbers and is hogging the ball? Come on. That's not John Stockton.


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Does anyone get penalized as much as Karl Malone and John Stockton amongst top players for playing with each other?

    Anytime you bring up Karl Malone's scoring it's "well yeah he had Stockton passing to him" and when you bring up Stockton it's "well yeah he was passing to Karl Malone".

    Apparently Malone would be a 20 PPG not a 30 PPG scorer if not for Stockton but Stockton would be an 8 APG PG instead of a 13 APG passer.
    Brutal man. It makes me think of Phil Jackson. "So overrated he had MJ/Pip...then Kobe/Shaq...then Kobe/Gasol" It's like yes that is true but it makes me question the absurd standard at which some people are compared before their success actually counts. At what point is it considered impressive? Did Phil need to win 15 titles? Did John Stockton need to average 16apg? Then would people believe they actually earned that success. Stockton having 5 of the top 6 assist per game seasons ever and being the all-time leader by a mile isn't enough to prove his ability as a passer because he had Karl Malone as a teammate.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    No you went further than that. Since you'll cry strawman I'll quote you:



    APG never indicate who the better passer is. There is a difference between saying there are exceptions and what you said.



    I'm not sure what the problem is here. First of all you conceded this:



    So if they both are ball dominant and both are leading their team to elite offenses... what is the problem? Why is this such a detriment to John Stockton's case?



    These arguments hold very little credibility with me. Because John Stockton played with Karl Malone his assist numbers aren't as impressive? That's the implication of this post. I can't use John Stockton's ridiculous lead in all-time assists to promote his passing ability because he played with another hall of famer. Do I need to add a disclaimer to remind people that he played with Karl Malone? I think they know... What this really does is it forces me to push back and ask you a very simple question:

    What amount of assist would have been impressive? He's got 5 of the top six seasons:
    1. John Stockton* 14.54 1989-90
    2. John Stockton* 14.20 1990-91
    3. Isiah Thomas* 13.86 1984-85
    4. John Stockton* 13.76 1987-88
    5. John Stockton* 13.73 1991-92
    6. John Stockton* 13.63 1988-89

    But he's not the best pure passer of all-time? If he had averaged 16apg would that have been enough? If you wanna bring up Magic or Nash who ran uptempo offenses and created tons of easy baskets for teammates season after season that discussion we can.



    You said this :


    and this:



    There is no other way to interpret that. If his stats are overrated than he is overrated. You even did it again in your last sentence!



    "A ball hog is a derisive term for a player who handles the ball exclusively to the point of impairing the team." Thanks Wikipedia. Didn't want to have to bring you into this. For the entire 90s the Jazz were a top 10 offense and took 2 trips to the finals. How can you possibly accuse him of being a ball hog when he had Karl Malone almost doubling his scoring output and Jeff Hornacek outscoring him? Especially while he was leading a WINNING TEAM to 50 win seasons and two finals trips. I grew up in the 90s. Stockton was considered the ultimate pure point guard. Ran the offense to perfection. 82 games every year. Set his teammates up more often than any player in the history of the nba.

    You say he has overrated assist numbers and is hogging the ball? Come on. That's not John Stockton.
    1) Maybe you opt to read before you make lengthy posts that are really, arguing strawman takes. My first post in regards to this was that CP3 is a better player than Stockton. I said his APG is overrated if you are going to say he's a better passer than CP3 because of that because Stockton pounded more possessions and had a guy like Karl Malone to feed it to every season of his career.

    2) Again, you quote APG numbers when it's clearly skewed. That doesn't make Stockton a better passer. You're asking me who the better player was but all you do is quote APG numbers? Chris Paul's APG numbers are obviously lower because he never played with a guy like Karl Malone, he's also capable of scoring the ball and was depended upon to do so for many years, and because CP3 isn't pounding the ball the way Stockton did because the makeup of the teams are completely different.

    3) It's funny you had to Google the definition of ball-hog to reaffirm your case. It was a bad choice of word for me there but it was more-so to point out Stockton's ball pounding than anything else. You just kept using strawman arguments to make it seem as if I'm making Stockton out to be a negative-impact player when my first post would clarify my points that I have been making.

    4) Yes, I said his stats are overrated. Are you judging Stockton by his stats? If so, then yes, you are overrating him. If not, then no, my arguments haven't been to say Stockton is overrated but to say that as a player, he is not better than CP3. Seriously, if we're going to judge Stockton by his APG, the guy should be MUCH higher on all-time lists. But he's not. He's placed right where he should be. I've made my points. CP3 is a better player by any metric you want to use. Literally, the only arguments you have made are APG - which would put Stockton above Magic. Is that a take you really want to stick by?

  9. #69
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    Btw, you opt to look at some serious playoff blunders from Stockton. Average 15/10 on below efficiency is not going to win his team games. It's why despite having two of the greatest players in the game A) One being 2nd in All-time scoring and probably the GOAT PF during his time, and B) One being the leading APG and assists in NBA history, they achieved so little. The problem with Stockton is he wasn't a two-way threat. You look at all the PG's in the league and it's very rare that a pass-first PG who is limited in scoring will win a championship. It's why I believe most would take Isiah over Stockton as well. Did Kidd win a championship as head honcho being a pass-first? I mean, even Steve Nash to a lesser extent. You have to be able to score the ball if you pound the ball that much. Why? Because the rest of the opposing team knew how to put the clamps on the rest of your team. Even Payton put the work on Stockton. Vs Bulls, what did Stockton honestly really do? He couldn't score. You can recite his efficiency but that's because he took highly selective shots. When the heat turns up, you're not going to get the shots you always want. We've seen CP3 put the ball in the hoop when needed and also play facilitator as well. Stockton was not a two-way threat like that.

  10. #70
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    Peak Steve Nash is better than Stockton.
    Don’t forget to smile today, they’re contagious!!!


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    1) Maybe you opt to read before you make lengthy posts that are really, arguing strawman takes. My first post in regards to this was that CP3 is a better player than Stockton. I said his APG is overrated if you are going to say he's a better passer than CP3 because of that because Stockton pounded more possessions and had a guy like Karl Malone to feed it to every season of his career.
    I quoted the exact posts where you said inflated and overrated and I'm still using strawman. Be serious.

    2) Again, you quote APG numbers when it's clearly skewed. That doesn't make Stockton a better passer. You're asking me who the better player was but all you do is quote APG numbers? Chris Paul's APG numbers are obviously lower because he never played with a guy like Karl Malone, he's also capable of scoring the ball and was depended upon to do so for many years, and because CP3 isn't pounding the ball the way Stockton did because the makeup of the teams are completely different.
    You are creating an impossible standard. In your mind Stockton's 14.5apg does not make his passing skills superior to Paul's 11.6apg because of teammates and "pounding the ball." I'm just curious how many assists would Stockton have needed to average for you to call him a better passer? 16? 18? I already know your reply is going to be that the assist numbers don't matter but I grew up in the 90s. I'm 34. I watched a ton of Stockton. The numbers support what my eyes told me. What are you using to base your opinion that Stockton is not the better passer?


    3) It's funny you had to Google the definition of ball-hog to reaffirm your case. It was a bad choice of word for me there but it was more-so to point out Stockton's ball pounding than anything else. You just kept using strawman arguments to make it seem as if I'm making Stockton out to be a negative-impact player when my first post would clarify my points that I have been making.
    Now who is using strawman? I'm only accusing you of saying Stockton's assists are inflated and overrated. And that accusation is based in the fact that... you know... you said it and I quoted it 3 times. And you're about to say it again.

    4) Yes, I said his stats are overrated. Are you judging Stockton by his stats? If so, then yes, you are overrating him. If not, then no, my arguments haven't been to say Stockton is overrated but to say that as a player, he is not better than CP3. Seriously, if we're going to judge Stockton by his APG, the guy should be MUCH higher on all-time lists. But he's not. He's placed right where he should be. I've made my points. CP3 is a better player by any metric you want to use. Literally, the only arguments you have made are APG - which would put Stockton above Magic. Is that a take you really want to stick by?
    The strawman crown is all yours now buddy. In this exact thread I already said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Magic was a better passer, scorer, and more efficient. Plus he just dominated games offensively. Stockton hit some clutch shots but he was never a dominant scorer.
    So no I don't rank Stockton ahead of Magic. You also said the only argument I have made are APG?

    Then what are these posts in this very thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    He (Stockton) had a season where he averaged 17ppg / 15 apg / 3 spg all-nba defensive team and he didn't even shoot 1 three point shot per game. He is a career 38.4% shooter from 3pt. He and Mark Price just played in the wrong era. He is the ultimate table setter. Would love to have him on my team. Plus he's way more clutch than Chris Paul.
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I'm not sure why Stockton is being so doubted. He would play every game. Lead the league in assists every year. Shoot over 50% from the field. Shoot over 40% from 3pt. Shoot low 80's from FT. Lead the league in steals. Make all-defensive team. Like what else did you want him to do?
    I talked about his scoring, his passing, his steals, his all-defensive teams, his efficiency from the field/perimeter/ft, his reliability in production, and his endurance to play every game. You need to retire this strawman nonsense because you called me out and I quoted your posts and now you are trying to do it again and I'm quoting my own posts to prove you wrong again. I could easily throw your first sentence back at you but I'm not into baiting.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I quoted the exact posts where you said inflated and overrated and I'm still using strawman. Be serious.



    You are creating an impossible standard. In your mind Stockton's 14.5apg does not make his passing skills superior to Paul's 11.6apg because of teammates and "pounding the ball." I'm just curious how many assists would Stockton have needed to average for you to call him a better passer? 16? 18? I already know your reply is going to be that the assist numbers don't matter but I grew up in the 90s. I'm 34. I watched a ton of Stockton. The numbers support what my eyes told me. What are you using to base your opinion that Stockton is not the better passer?




    Now who is using strawman? I'm only accusing you of saying Stockton's assists are inflated and overrated. And that accusation is based in the fact that... you know... you said it and I quoted it 3 times. And you're about to say it again.



    The strawman crown is all yours now buddy. In this exact thread I already said this:


    So no I don't rank Stockton ahead of Magic. You also said the only argument I have made are APG?

    Then what are these posts in this very thread:




    I talked about his scoring, his passing, his steals, his all-defensive teams, his efficiency from the field/perimeter/ft, his reliability in production, and his endurance to play every game. You need to retire this strawman nonsense because you called me out and I quoted your posts and now you are trying to do it again and I'm quoting my own posts to prove you wrong again. I could easily throw your first sentence back at you but I'm not into baiting.
    Let me make it simple for you.

    You provided a case for Stockton. The only valid case you have is that he had a higher APG. There is NOTHING Stockton did better than CP3 at other than have a higher APG. My reasoning for Stockton having a higher APG was based off him having more possessions of the ball due to the nature of his team so I stated that APG doesn't help his case in terms of being the better passer because they were both equally great passers. I have NEVER underrated Stockton - you are simply OVERRATING him to the likes that I originally didn't realize.

    Oh, so Magic was a better passer than Stockton? How do you figure? Stockton has had more seasons with higher APG's and leads the NBA in total assists. The answer is because Stockton did not have that next level that these other guys have due to their scoring capabilities.

    You talk about his scoring - which is laughable. Stop. CP3 beats him here easily.
    Passing = CP3 - which I advocated based on two elite all-time PG's who have the best AST/TO ratios in NBA history. CP3 is #1, Stockton #2. I don't look at APG to determine who the better passer was. Rondo was never the best passer in the league but simply the system required him to facilitate every possession.
    All-defensive teams, Stockton takes a hit because of GP but CP3 is one of the greatest perimeter defenders playing in an era where the explosion of guards is at a level Stockton has never played against. Ask yourself, where would Stockton rank as a PG today? His defense was tough but also very dirty. That same type of defense would not be possible in today's league and he sure as hell would have a more difficult time fighting through screens and dealing with elite level guard play game after game.
    Efficiency, again, when you are that selective with your shots, efficiency doesn't always outweigh volume. Stockton was an opportunist scorer. You can't give him the ball and he takes over.

    I'm not throwing anything out. The entire time, you have misinterpreted my post. It wasn't about Stockton's career I was questioning. It's the fact that he isn't better than CP3 and you haven't made a case that he he beats CP3 in any category. The lone argument that we have gone back-and-forth has been APG and Stockton's total assist numbers. Great. But how was he a better passer? Have you detailed that?

    We can all agree, Magic was the GOAT passer because of his height and he was able to see the play before it happens. How was Stockton a better passer than CP3? Because CP3 is better on every other category. And we don't have to mention the many times Stockton has underachieved against guards that he is above in terms of all-time lists. I'd take Isiah and GP over Stockton any day.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Btw, you opt to look at some serious playoff blunders from Stockton. Average 15/10 on below efficiency is not going to win his team games. It's why despite having two of the greatest players in the game A) One being 2nd in All-time scoring and probably the GOAT PF during his time, and B) One being the leading APG and assists in NBA history, they achieved so little. The problem with Stockton is he wasn't a two-way threat. You look at all the PG's in the league and it's very rare that a pass-first PG who is limited in scoring will win a championship. It's why I believe most would take Isiah over Stockton as well. Did Kidd win a championship as head honcho being a pass-first? I mean, even Steve Nash to a lesser extent. You have to be able to score the ball if you pound the ball that much. Why? Because the rest of the opposing team knew how to put the clamps on the rest of your team. Even Payton put the work on Stockton. Vs Bulls, what did Stockton honestly really do? He couldn't score. You can recite his efficiency but that's because he took highly selective shots. When the heat turns up, you're not going to get the shots you always want. We've seen CP3 put the ball in the hoop when needed and also play facilitator as well. Stockton was not a two-way threat like that.
    While you do have a point in that historically pass first PG's who are the star player of a team don't win the title, I do disagree with the idea that they "accomplished very little"

    They went to the Finals twice and went to the WCF another 3 times. They went to the WCF 5/7 years in the 90's. That's a WCF trip about every 1/3 of the time they were together as starters.

    They had the most consistent success of any team outside MJ/Hakeem's teams in the 90's.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    While you do have a point in that historically pass first PG's who are the star player of a team don't win the title, I do disagree with the idea that they "accomplished very little"

    They went to the Finals twice and went to the WCF another 3 times. They went to the WCF 5/7 years in the 90's. That's a WCF trip about every 1/3 of the time they were together as starters.

    They had the most consistent success of any team outside MJ/Hakeem's teams in the 90's.
    For Stockton/Karl Malone to be as healthy as they were for nearly a two-decade span (granted, Stockton took a few years to get his body ultimately adjusted and then, his career actually declined later on really quick, tbh), what was achieved? I get the MJ argument but they lost to some teams they should have quite frankly, beat. They should have beaten the Blazers at least once, lost to the Rockets twice when they were the favorites (a series where Stockton averaged 14/8 and got outplayed by Kenny Smith). I mean, we're talking about two All-Time GOAT's who had always been healthy but two NBA Finals appearances was all they have to their list of team success? WCF trip meant nothing. As soon as the Showtime Lakers were out of the league, the rest of the WC were food for the Bulls. It wasn't exactly the most competitive of WC.

    Consistent, yes. Stockton and Karl Malone are right up there with the Duncan+TP+Manu in consistency but they didn't win anything and for two-all time players to seriously achieve that little, it's damaging to both their legacies. I mean, if Karl Malone had one a ring or two, he'd have a fighting argument over Duncan and a top ten spot. Literally, the only reason Stockton is #2 in PG is because of his longevity but if you count peak for peak years, CP3 has had more and was the better player.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    For Stockton/Karl Malone to be as healthy as they were for nearly a two-decade span (granted, Stockton took a few years to get his body ultimately adjusted and then, his career actually declined later on really quick, tbh), what was achieved? I get the MJ argument but they lost to some teams they should have quite frankly, beat. They should have beaten the Blazers at least once, lost to the Rockets twice when they were the favorites (a series where Stockton averaged 14/8 and got outplayed by Kenny Smith). I mean, we're talking about two All-Time GOAT's who had always been healthy but two NBA Finals appearances was all they have to their list of team success? WCF trip meant nothing. As soon as the Showtime Lakers were out of the league, the rest of the WC were food for the Bulls. It wasn't exactly the most competitive of WC.

    Consistent, yes. Stockton and Karl Malone are right up there with the Duncan+TP+Manu in consistency but they didn't win anything and for two-all time players to seriously achieve that little, it's damaging to both their legacies. I mean, if Karl Malone had one a ring or two, he'd have a fighting argument over Duncan and a top ten spot. Literally, the only reason Stockton is #2 in PG is because of his longevity but if you count peak for peak years, CP3 has had more and was the better player.
    I'm not sure if this is a joke or what? But the Western Conference was very competitive during that time. Hakeem's Rockets, GP/Kemp Sonics, Barkley Suns, Clyde Blazers, D-Rob's Spurs.

    In 94 6 teams won 50+ games (and the Blazers won 47) and 5 teams had an SRS above 4.00.
    In 95 4 teams won 57+ games and 3 had an SRS above 5.90.
    96 had 4 teams above 4 SRS
    97 had 5 teams above 3 SRS
    In 98 3 teams won 60+ games (and 2 more won 56) and 4 teams were above 4.40 SRS.

    (For reference the entire NBA today has 3 teams above 4.00 SRS and 5 above 3.00 SRS, let alone just the West).

    When you look at who they faced and what they did, they were very close a number of times:

    98: Lost to MJ's Bulls in the Finals
    97: Lost to MJ's Bulls in the Finals
    96: Lost to Sonics in the WCF 3-4
    95: Lost to the Rockets in the 1st Rd 2-3
    94: Lost to the Rockets in the WCF 1-4
    93: Lost to the Sonics in the 1st Rd 2-3
    92: Lost to the Blazers in the WCF 2-4


    So in 7 years they were either West Champs or lost to the team that went to the Finals in 6/7 years. 3/5 times they lost it was in the Game 5/7 (last game) of the series.

    I agree that CP3 was the better player, but what the Jazz did was impressive and they achieved a lot (even if they fell short of a title) in an incredibly tough conference. Not to mention that with no GOAT in their way, Malone/Stockton likely have a title or 2.

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