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View Poll Results: Which of the remaining players was best at their peak?

Voters
18. You may not vote on this poll
  • Dwyane Wade

    5 27.78%
  • Oscar Robertson

    1 5.56%
  • Bill Walton

    7 38.89%
  • Jerry West

    2 11.11%
  • Charles Barkley

    0 0%
  • Julius Erving

    0 0%
  • Kevin Durant

    1 5.56%
  • David Robinson

    0 0%
  • Chris Paul

    0 0%
  • Kevin Garnett

    1 5.56%
  • Bill Russell

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    0 0%
  • Another Player (Please Specify)

    1 5.56%
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    That your critical eye is short sighted
    Oh ok. Then which do i have wrong. Is it that Iverson is way better than i thought, or Tmac is way worse, because it cant be both.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Based on what tho? Why would I care about per game averages devoid of era related context on top of disregarding defensive environments from a league standard. Who did wade lock down really
    Because even when you do per 100 possessions Wade still looks as good.

    T-Mac 01-08: 37.9 pts, 8.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.4 blck, 4.1 TO .519 TS%
    Wade 09-10: 41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

    As for who did Wade lock down, who did T-Mac? T-Mac definitely didn't try to play much defense for large stretches, but even the idea that he could "turn it on" based on a series or two when he was a good mismatch for Dirk isn't going to convince me.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Because even when you do per 100 possessions Wade still looks as good.

    T-Mac 01-08: 37.9 pts, 8.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.4 blck, 4.1 TO .519 TS%
    Wade 09-10: 41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

    As for who did Wade lock down, who did T-Mac? T-Mac definitely didn't try to play much defense for large stretches, but even the idea that he could "turn it on" based on a series or two when he was a good mismatch for Dirk isn't going to convince me.
    That still ignores league averages and focusing on peak tmac is better than overall prime run, dudes career was totally derailed by numerous injuries, at least wade had a few more years since he came in physically matured.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Sure it can, check out the difference in efficiency and production
    Believe me i have. If you'd asked me where tmac stood 2 weeks ago i would have ranked him plenty higher than i do today.

    If you want to prove why tmac is superior to iverson you point to all the things he was better at... not efficiency and production because the difference there isnt much at all

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Sure it can, check out the difference in efficiency and production
    From 99-03 AI's TO% was 10.8%. T-Mac's from 01-07 was 9.1%. AI's AST% was 24.6 during that span, T-Mac's was 27.3%.

    T-Mac was more efficient than AI, but not markedly so. If we assume that T-Mac would get a boost efficiency-wise in the current era, why don't we assume the same of AI?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Believe me i have. If you'd asked me where tmac stood 2 weeks ago i would have ranked him plenty higher than i do today.

    If you want to prove why tmac is superior to iverson you point to all the things he was better at... not efficiency and production because the difference there isnt much at all

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    I've never seen a single statistical barometer to back that assertion, certainly not throughout their peak days. Hopefully I can get behind a key board but all I can say it's much more of an argument than you guys think and that I firmly believe tmac would have benefited from the rule changes and superior teammates in his athletic prime.

    Again tho, this should have been west then Walton then it get interesting

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Lots believe that was peak wade, the point remains its comparable in stature, far more than post knee/back/ shoulder injury version of tmac in Houston that's for sure
    How is that comparable when WADE brought his team a CHIP, and TMac did NOT? It's pretty simple bro

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    That still ignores league averages and focusing on peak tmac is better than overall prime run, dudes career was totally derailed by numerous injuries, at least wade had a few more years since he came in physically matured.
    OK, even using 02-05 (the playoff numbers most favorable to T-Mac), you get:

    38.9 pts, 8.6 reb, 7.1 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.6 blck, 4.5 TO, .557 TS%
    41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

    Wade still scored more and scored more efficiently. I agree, era definitely affected that, but if you account for era are you saying T-Mac would do better than Wade did (i.e. above .600 TS%) or that Wade would do worse than T-Mac did (below .557)? Because I highly doubt T-Mac tops .600 in any era, his play was just not that conducive to that level of efficiency.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    From 99-03 AI's TO% was 10.8%. T-Mac's from 01-07 was 9.1%. AI's AST% was 24.6 during that span, T-Mac's was 27.3%.

    T-Mac was more efficient than AI, but not markedly so. If we assume that T-Mac would get a boost efficiency-wise in the current era, why don't we assume the same of AI?
    We saw it from ai remember. Dude still had some quicks and he enjoyed something of a resurgence much like many perimeter stars and no **** he would've gotten more of a boost in his athletic prime. The reasons people disliked Iverson then are less of an issue in an era with simplified roles. But tmac was far more productive on both ends and at his apex was locking down come playoffs.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    OK, even using 02-05 (the playoff numbers most favorable to T-Mac), you get:

    38.9 pts, 8.6 reb, 7.1 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.6 blck, 4.5 TO, .557 TS%
    41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

    Wade still scored more and scored more efficiently. I agree, era definitely affected that, but if you account for era are you saying T-Mac would do better than Wade did (i.e. above .600 TS%) or that Wade would do worse than T-Mac did (below .557)? Because I highly doubt T-Mac tops .600 in any era, his play was just not that conducive to that level of efficiency.
    You're still not posting their ortg but to answer the q, it's not just era but the strength of the teams they faced. Like those Detroit pistons were unkind to perimeter players, once they finished with tmac they did much the same to Iverson in the next round. Tmacs squads were severely undermanned vs the Mavs and tmac giving Dirk fits should not be discounted, he completely outplayed Dirk despite the loss. Wade taking on and losing to Joe Johnson and horford is understandable but not exactly defensively imposing if you know what I mean.

    His 5 game series vs Boston is far more impressive given their reputation defensively, much more becoming of a hero in defeat but the Celtics weren't pushed to the brink imo, both faced +50 win squads but I just think tmac should get the nod for his 2 way ability. Still that game wade had to stave off a sweep was prolly greater than most games I've seen from over matched stars.

    Still, check out their offensive rtg vs those teams.

    Wade vs atl/boston
    113 o rtg (112/114 respectively)

    Tmac vs detroit/Dallas
    112 (110/114 respectively)

    So yeah wade was more efficient but it was by a hair, both had a 27 PER. Very close debate, I just think tmac had it harder and was better on both ends and as I've said before, gimme the more skilled player if it's close statistically. Iverson don't come close in this debate that's for sure

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandsOnTheWheel View Post
    How is that comparable when WADE brought his team a CHIP, and TMac did NOT? It's pretty simple bro
    This is what I mean by the ring thing, Wade was at best a 2nd round team, then they acquired a aged but still 20/10 guy in Shaq and it took a damn near 70 win team to almost go up 3-0 to blow it and the 'Heat' won the Chamion-SHIP, Chips are where the casinos are and grocery/corner stores if you are hungry

    had Yao not got hurt TMac may have a Finals trip or 2, not saying he would have won the title but it sure does help like hell to be one of the last two teams fighting for that crown

    so no its not that simple, had Riley stayed ''pat'' and not trading Butler/Odom then they would have been a team that could pull off a 1st round exit and be out in the 2nd round

    TMac never had a title type team to lean on and when he finally sort of did in Houston then the Yao injuries happened, as well as TMac dealing with his own

    if you want to base it off SHIPS then Iverson is on a whole other level for taking Snow(seniority, 1 finals in 7yrs with AI) or aged Mutombo as his sidekick to a Finals while a tandem of KD/Westbrook went 1x in 8yrs and both lost and we all know a KD/Westbrook combo is way more lethal on the court and on way way more on paper

    I really wish Sixers weren't such a dumb org. and would have paired AI/TMac so we could all be sitting here talking about how many ECF/Finals that duo went to from 99-07, it would have been a scary sight for that weak East, that's for damn sure and certain

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    We saw it from ai remember. Dude still had some quicks and he enjoyed something of a resurgence much like many perimeter stars and no **** he would've gotten more of a boost in his athletic prime. The reasons people disliked Iverson then are less of an issue in an era with simplified roles. But tmac was far more productive on both ends and at his apex was locking down come playoffs.
    picking between AI and TMAC is only a height thing, even TMAC will tell you that his damn self, you pretty much take the taller guy, if you switched heights you would easily take Iverson, and to me Iverson was more of a killer, smell blood type of guy, at that height he would have been Lebron before Lebron

    Iverson is like a mini me version of Shaq, even Diesel said it himself, his words

    TMac was like a Lebron/G Hill with a better pure natural shot and slightly less overall impact(more so to Bron than Hill), you cant go wrong with either but the bigger guy will always pretty much win if both have similar traits and ability, but the thing is we are comparing a midget to a giant in a giant mans game,especially at that time of era

    Lil Dipper is who I would still draft over TMac and I admire both players game/style

    Lil Dipper Is one of only a handful of small guys that you can actually compare to the legendary 6'8'' and up players because they play bigger than their actual size/height, you cant do that with Stockton/Nash and other lesser type players, only Tiny/Zeke/CP3/C Jackson/Wade and maybe R Strickland(underrated horribly), and for good ole measure, M Bogues(jk) but he was a beast for his size as was E Boykins but they are not on those other 4-6 small guy guards list level, Price gets a honorable mention as well, to me Price was Nash without the MVP's, Price could shoot with the best of'em, in any era

    the little giants of the game are underrated horribly, every top ten greatest list doesn't have not one but others who have played the game put them on a different level than the media does, which is fine because I tend to listen to the actual player, makes it easier since I am a actual player and can see easily who impacts the game and who you would go pay and see play or looking forward to seeing play, those are the best/most dominant players, that's their role, to dominant from stats to jersey to ticket sales and hopefully a lot of wins if the team is constructed right for a title run, but that doesn't sway me to think Wade was better than TMac because of a ring, or any other player for that matter, P Pierce has a ring and many would say Baylor was better player, rings are for media folly and clutter, players play and showcase the talent regardless and that's how you truly rank a player
    Last edited by europagnpilgrim; 02-12-2018 at 09:29 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by europagnpilgrim View Post
    This is what I mean by the ring thing, Wade was at best a 2nd round team, then they acquired a aged but still 20/10 guy in Shaq and it took a damn near 70 win team to almost go up 3-0 to blow it and the 'Heat' won the Chamion-SHIP, Chips are where the casinos are and grocery/corner stores if you are hungry

    had Yao not got hurt TMac may have a Finals trip or 2, not saying he would have won the title but it sure does help like hell to be one of the last two teams fighting for that crown

    so no its not that simple, had Riley stayed ''pat'' and not trading Butler/Odom then they would have been a team that could pull off a 1st round exit and be out in the 2nd round

    TMac never had a title type team to lean on and when he finally sort of did in Houston then the Yao injuries happened, as well as TMac dealing with his own

    if you want to base it off SHIPS then Iverson is on a whole other level for taking Snow(seniority, 1 finals in 7yrs with AI) or aged Mutombo as his sidekick to a Finals while a tandem of KD/Westbrook went 1x in 8yrs and both lost and we all know a KD/Westbrook combo is way more lethal on the court and on way way more on paper

    I really wish Sixers weren't such a dumb org. and would have paired AI/TMac so we could all be sitting here talking about how many ECF/Finals that duo went to from 99-07, it would have been a scary sight for that weak East, that's for damn sure and certain
    In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West. And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.

  14. #89
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    As for this list, 77 Walton.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West. And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.
    They were a better structure team before Mutombo with Ratliff who was a athletic rim runner and shot blocker who fit like a glove with AI, you are kidding yourself talking about AI needs to thank that defense and ignore the other side and not tell Mutombo and those 6ppg scorers to thank Iverson for shooting willingly to cover their non scoring abilities, you had more post moves than Mutombo and I bet you could outshoot Snow from the elbow with your eyes closed, that Pacers team just came off a Finals trip so its their fault they were barely 500. not AI's, and they lost the game against Pacers because Iverson had a ''off offensive'' game, keyword '''OFFENSE''', see how much they depend on AI scoring? or it basketball all defense for 48minutes for both teams?

    Raptors series came down once again between franchise players in Carter vs Iverson, Carter went for 50pts one game, Iverson did it twice that series, so does the Sixers owe Iverson for carrying the load or is it just only defense carried Iverson? the media GOAT ''JORDAN'' and Iverson are the only players to drop 50 or more twice in a playoff series, imagine that the Lil Dipper is in the same breath as the media whore GOAT, JORDAN

    Once again on paper Milwaukee had a true legit big 3 and possible 4 with super sub T Thomas(another wasted pick by philly prior), Iverson missed a game that series as well because he could barely walk and was hurt/injured but we should just ignore that and say he shot 34pct for the series but in game 7 when the chips are all on the table he drops 44pts, meaning he is clutch and carried the entire offense right?

    no his hallmark achievement is doing it with Mckie and Snow as his 2nd and 3rd options, and if it makes you feel better you can swap one of those for Mutombo, and if Iverson is 40-60 range where does Mckie and Snow rank? between 800-2000? just want to clear this up because its nothing you can really do but what he did with that team, go from 18 wins and max out at 56 from 98-2004 with 6ppg career scorers, that is amazing once you truly wrap your brain around it

    this is what I don't get, Lebron James was basically Iverson his first 7yrs in Cleveland, 1 finals trip that was a shocker to get there and maxed out winning 60 games back to back and had to relocate to finally reach more Finals, except AI did the stupid thing of showing loyalty and he flamed out, Lebron said in 3yrs I don't want to have bad knees, meaning he didn't want to carry the load like that no more, AI did the same thing and gets killed for it

    Lebron use to dribble dribble dribble and either shot or look for a shooter, and years later he is doing the same thing but played with a better roster since the 11' season and has the Finals to show for it, but had he stayed pat in Cleveland he wouldn't have went to 7 straight Finals and would still be a ringless beast, now he is just a beast with 3 rings, rings don't change a players game/impact, the players do, solo acts in a team sport, that's all it is and all it ever will be no matter how they try and brainwash you to think different

    If any one can think of a weaker second option in Finals nba history post it on here ASAP

    choose one, Mckie or Snow to team with Iverson

    and go through the past Finals of duos and I bet its the weakest ever or at worst 2nd, just remember this past Finals we had Irving/Bron vs KD/Curry(could swap Klay to show you how strong that cast is)

    Iverson/Snow, they really made a finals trip? Snow and his 6ppg career

    you guys are overrating defensive only players and forgetting that its a 2 side game, and Iverson led the league in scoring and steals with that defense around him, so he did his part, roaming the perimeter causing havoc, gambling just as a shot blocker gambles for a block from the weak side, Rodman gambled a lot for those rebounds, Stockton gambled a lot looking for that right pass to rack up an assist, so what big deal
    Last edited by europagnpilgrim; 02-12-2018 at 10:03 PM.

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