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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    So the problem is guys they signed last year ? Sweet merciful man. Last year was an entirely different off season. So they weren't supposed to sign anyone last year to more than 1 year after they had just made the playoffs twice so they could save money for this season? For players who probably wouldn't even consider signing here? We weren't even on Darvish's short list, and I don't think we are winning a bidding war with Boston for Martinez. Basing any strategy around being able to sign those guys is doomed from the start.

    Pearce is a solid versatile bench player getting paid ~6M, I don't see how he can be part of any financial issue..He played 5 positions the year before, slashed .288/.374/.492 and is historically a lefty killer. On a team that was looking to compete last year, it was a solid signing at the time....and still is.

    The Morales signing wasn't the best, but he was coming off back to back solid years in KC. IF he had posted an OBP of .340-.350 instead of .308 and striking out a career high pace people wouldn't be complaining about him. If he stinks against RHP again he won't be worth the 11M, but it won't be as much wasted money as either Tulo or Martin was last year.

    I can't believe you don't think the money issue for this team is the pair of 20M dollar players giving them 5M dollar player performances. Can you imagine how different this team looks right now if those 2 guys were actually expected to play like the all-stars they once were? Tulo would be hitting 3/4 and Martin would be either 2nd, 5th or 6th.This team isn't built around Morales and Pearce. It is built around JD, Tulo and Martin. They are the vets who know how to win, and the guys getting paid to produce like all-stars and carry this team. Those type of players need to hit to be worth anything close to what they are getting paid.


    They essentially threw away 30+ Million on Martin and Tulo last year...and another 17M on Bautista. That is almost 1/3 of their payroll down the crapper last season. How many teams can afford to build a contender when a third of their payroll is essentially thrown away?

    What "boxed them in" this off season is having a SS and a 2B that they can't count on to play more than 60 games in a season, and no suitable in house replacements for the 5th SP, LF or RF. Sure Hernandez and Alford could have filled those roles, but what if both them fell on their face? Were they going to go with Carrera and Pearce?

    If Tulo and Travis could be counted on than they wouldn't have needed to find 2 more everyday quality players to play behind them instead of just letting Goins fill the backup MI role. I still can't believe they managed to find 2 starting quality players though who get paid like back ups with several seasons of control......and one they can also stash in AAA on opening day to save the roster spot ...and did it without giving up more in the way of prospects. I think they have done a masterful job this off season so far. They haven't overpaid anyone, and they have kept their financial flexibility for the next few off seasons when they should have a lot more money to play with.
    I think Pearce can bounce back a bit and if he didn't have to play OF as much he probably would have provided positive value last year, but $17 million for below replacement production(along with Morales) is obviously not very efficient. Plus they took themselves out of the EE sweepstakes.
    People have to stop justifying the Morales signing. If it was for 1 year fine, but there's no justification for 3 years. It's ok to admit they messed up. Doesn't make you less of a fan. The team has to waste a roster spot on a guy who occupies a spot that is designed to mash and he doesn't mash. He's basically a glorified lefty basher at this point. If he replicated 2015 I would have no problems, but there wasn't much reason to expect it. I also think people have to lighten up on Russ. He provided basically 2 WAR last year. He's slightly overpaid, but he's not a negative player like Morales was.
    I didn't mind the FO going after multi year deals last year, but they obviously failed. Going into that off season they had openings at the corner OF and DH. Typically positions where it's not difficult to get production from. They managed to fail at that.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mell413 View Post
    I think Pearce can bounce back a bit and if he didn't have to play OF as much he probably would have provided positive value last year, but $17 million for below replacement production(along with Morales) is obviously not very efficient. Plus they took themselves out of the EE sweepstakes.
    People have to stop justifying the Morales signing. If it was for 1 year fine, but there's no justification for 3 years. It's ok to admit they messed up. Doesn't make you less of a fan. The team has to waste a roster spot on a guy who occupies a spot that is designed to mash and he doesn't mash. He's basically a glorified lefty basher at this point. If he replicated 2015 I would have no problems, but there wasn't much reason to expect it. I also think people have to lighten up on Russ. He provided basically 2 WAR last year. He's slightly overpaid, but he's not a negative player like Morales was.
    I didn't mind the FO going after multi year deals last year, but they obviously failed. Going into that off season they had openings at the corner OF and DH. Typically positions where it's not difficult to get production from. They managed to fail at that.


    I agree the Morales signing is hurting them, but the trend before last season was not players signing short term deals. It wasn't the best move signing anyone who can only DH, but they were trying to replace at least part of EE's (and JB's) power. Signing someone like Morales, a switch hitter who had potential to hit about 35 HR's in the AL East, had driven in 199 runs over the previous 2 seasons and historically been very good hitting with RISP wasn't the worst idea to try and keep the middle of the order productive.

    It wasn't until after they failed to bring back EE that ownership ponied up more money and basically told them to bring back Bautista to save face.


    If ownership had just given them the extra money from the start they could have kept EE (20Mx4) and possibly added Fowler (lets say 18Mx5 to outbid STL) instead of Morales (11M), Pearce (6), Howell (3M) and Bautista (17M).

  3. #48
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    Feb 2009
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    I havent completely given up on Morales. his numbers were only a little below his norms. hopefully he settles in this year and builds some value. tough to trade DH's though. most contenders have someone they would like to give at-bats to.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    So the problem is guys they signed last year ? Sweet merciful man. Last year was an entirely different off season. So they weren't supposed to sign anyone last year to more than 1 year after they had just made the playoffs twice so they could save money for this season? For players who probably wouldn't even consider signing here? We weren't even on Darvish's short list, and I don't think we are winning a bidding war with Boston for Martinez. Basing any strategy around being able to sign those guys is doomed from the start.

    Pearce is a solid versatile bench player getting paid ~6M, I don't see how he can be part of any financial issue..He played 5 positions the year before, slashed .288/.374/.492 and is historically a lefty killer. On a team that was looking to compete last year, it was a solid signing at the time....and still is.

    The Morales signing wasn't the best, but he was coming off back to back solid years in KC. IF he had posted an OBP of .340-.350 instead of .308 and striking out a career high pace people wouldn't be complaining about him. If he stinks against RHP again he won't be worth the 11M, but it won't be as much wasted money as either Tulo or Martin was last year.

    I can't believe you don't think the money issue for this team is the pair of 20M dollar players giving them 5M dollar player performances. Can you imagine how different this team looks right now if those 2 guys were actually expected to play like the all-stars they once were? Tulo would be hitting 3/4 and Martin would be either 2nd, 5th or 6th.This team isn't built around Morales and Pearce. It is built around JD, Tulo and Martin. They are the vets who know how to win, and the guys getting paid to produce like all-stars and carry this team. Those type of players need to hit to be worth anything close to what they are getting paid.


    They essentially threw away 30+ Million on Martin and Tulo last year...and another 17M on Bautista. That is almost 1/3 of their payroll down the crapper last season. How many teams can afford to build a contender when a third of their payroll is essentially thrown away?

    What "boxed them in" this off season is having a SS and a 2B that they can't count on to play more than 60 games in a season, and no suitable in house replacements for the 5th SP, LF or RF. Sure Hernandez and Alford could have filled those roles, but what if both them fell on their face? Were they going to go with Carrera and Pearce?

    If Tulo and Travis could be counted on than they wouldn't have needed to find 2 more everyday quality players to play behind them instead of just letting Goins fill the backup MI role. I still can't believe they managed to find 2 starting quality players though who get paid like back ups with several seasons of control......and one they can also stash in AAA on opening day to save the roster spot ...and did it without giving up more in the way of prospects. I think they have done a masterful job this off season so far. They haven't overpaid anyone, and they have kept their financial flexibility for the next few off seasons when they should have a lot more money to play with.
    They overpaid Morales. I also think suggesting that both Solarte and Diaz are starter quality players is a bit of an over-statement. Diaz posted a negative WAR last year and Solarte posted 1.3. Neither of these guys is a starter on a good team. While I love the potential for Diaz to breakout if given the opportunity, I don't think you can bank on him being the player he was in 2016.

    Grichuk is kind of in the same boat. Pretty mediocre offensive numbers and sounds like he's going to be handed the starting job in RF right out of the gate. Once again: love the breakout potential, but this is hardly what I would call a move you can bank on.

    As for being boxed in by the state of the infield, that's nothing more than perception with Travis being an arbitration player. It's not like they're saddled with Travis' hefty contract or something.

    I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think the team is that much better after acquiring three players who'd be scheduled ride the pine on any decent club.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LechWalesa View Post
    They overpaid Morales. I also think suggesting that both Solarte and Diaz are starter quality players is a bit of an over-statement. Diaz posted a negative WAR last year and Solarte posted 1.3. Neither of these guys is a starter on a good team. While I love the potential for Diaz to breakout if given the opportunity, I don't think you can bank on him being the player he was in 2016.

    Grichuk is kind of in the same boat. Pretty mediocre offensive numbers and sounds like he's going to be handed the starting job in RF right out of the gate. Once again: love the breakout potential, but this is hardly what I would call a move you can bank on.

    As for being boxed in by the state of the infield, that's nothing more than perception with Travis being an arbitration player. It's not like they're saddled with Travis' hefty contract or something.

    I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think the team is that much better after acquiring three players who'd be scheduled ride the pine on any decent club.
    I disagree that these guys would necissary be riding the pine. Yes they would if there was a better player on the team at the position but that isn't a given. Rios was the royals championship RF. Every team has it's weak spots. I'm sure lots of contenders would like to have solarte in the role yes expected to play for us.

    I'm not really understanding how the FO is going to bring in the impact player they promised this off-season.

  6. #51
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    Solarte struggled with some personal things mid season last year that threw him off in the second half, but he was primarily a cleanup hitter the last couple years in SD, and is a year removed from an .808 OPS. He isn't going to make an all-star team, but he is definitely a starting caliber player. (He's also another power increase candidate getting him out of SD.)


    Diaz struggled last year, but he's a year removed from an all-star caliber season at SS. He is 100% a starting caliber MI. No one is banking on him being an all-star, just to give us more than what we got from Goins and Urena last year if Tulo goes down.

    I think most people are hoping they aren't even needed, as that would mean Tulo, JD and Travis are all healthy. Fact of the matter is though, Goins ( who just signed a minor league deal in KC) and Barney had over 800 PA's between them last year. Getting people to fill those roles who can hit was important, and its not like FA's would be lining up to get paid like a backup and possibly get backup type playing time.

  7. #52
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    Jays found gems with struggling NLers but guys who have shown signs. Encarnacion, Estrada, Bautista. Grishuk may end up like them. Diaz also too for that matter. The 3rd guy we got this winter also.

    The stars from NL have stunk the joint out here. Reyes, Tulo, Jack Johnson, etc...

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie View Post
    Jays found gems with struggling NLers but guys who have shown signs. Encarnacion, Estrada, Bautista. Grishuk may end up like them. Diaz also too for that matter. The 3rd guy we got this winter also.

    The stars from NL have stunk the joint out here. Reyes, Tulo, Jack Johnson, etc...
    Reyes was actually pretty good (offensively) in 2013. He just missed about 2 full months. He had 10 HRs, 20 2Bs , 15 SBs and a .296/.353/.427 stat line in just 93 games. He fell off in 2014, but he hasn't looked the same back in the NL either. He just fell off regardless of where he was playing.

    I also assume you are talking about Josh Johnson...who wasn't any good in 2012 either before they took a chance on him. He was no longer a star, just someone they hoped would bounce back..

  9. #54
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    All these Cards deals no doubt fallout of Donaldson talks.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie View Post
    All these Cards deals no doubt fallout of Donaldson talks.
    Agreed.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Agreed.
    There was a St. Louis reporter on 590 other day. Said Cards tried hard for Donaldson, asked Jays about every player on their roster. Trying to fit a Donaldson trade together.

    But I would say after Ozuna trade that ship has sailed. Not much left on their farm. Weaver has graduated, Reyes blew out his arm, then Ozuna trade took 4 top prospects.

  12. #57
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    Grichuk trade not looking as good. He wants to chase. In White Sox game bases were loaded and a 3-0 out. He chased 2 breaking pitches in the dirt, then froze on 3-2 fastball down the middle. Costing us a game. Much as he has been in the big leagues he should recognize a breaking pitch by now

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie View Post
    Grichuk trade not looking as good. He wants to chase. In White Sox game bases were loaded and a 3-0 out. He chased 2 breaking pitches in the dirt, then froze on 3-2 fastball down the middle. Costing us a game. Much as he has been in the big leagues he should recognize a breaking pitch by now
    It has been an awful start for him at the plate. I wonder how much time he'll get to figure it out.

  14. #59
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    Grichuk doesn't have any options, but he is already losing AB's to Pearce against RHP. Hopefully Alford can stay healthy for a while and find his way into that RF spot.


    JD Martinez ($23.75M):

    .250/.295/.500 with 2 HR's


    Stanton ($25M)

    .235/.316/.510 with 3 HR's (after going 5 for 9 the last 2 days at Fenway...)



    Grandy, Solarte & Diaz ($9.125M):

    Grandy- .353/.436/.559 with 1 HR
    Solarte- .316/.447/.553 with 2 HR's



    Solarte can't come out of the lineup right now....and possibly the rest of the season. I know Travis has been good in the past, but Solarte is good right now. When Morales comes back, Solarte needs to play 2B unless Travis gets something going pretty quickly.


    Diaz is looking like a decent pickup too.He start 0 for 9 but he is 7 for 25 since (.280) with 3 HR's, 2 2B's and 5 RBI's. He hasn't walked yet, but he also only has 6 K's in 34 AB's. He is stays hot he could have 5 or 6 HR's by the end of April for crying out loud...

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