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View Poll Results: Is Stephen Curry more unguardable than Shaq?

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  • Yes (look at his efficiency).

    1 5.00%
  • No (screw efficiency).

    19 95.00%
  • Other (ban my account if I don't write player's name in thread).

    0 0%
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Gotchya. So not necessarily better at doing anything with his chances, but more unstoppable in the ability to get an easy look? Well it's one way to look at it I suppose. I guess in that sense Yao Ming has a case over Jordan also. That MJ was taking a loot of tough/contested mid-range shots and acrobatic finishes around the rim to try to avoid the pressure. With Yao there was really nothing you could do when he was set in that paint. And good luck blocking his silky 15 footer.


    For fun I wish we had raw +/- back to the 90's (or does anybody?) for reg season and playoffs. I see it from the mid 2000's [where it was some of the Pistons and KG/Duncan/Dirk for the most part], then in 08/09 'Bron took over until the 12/13 season [led each year]. They only have playoffs since '13 where I'm looking but he has a 2nd, 4th, 1st and 3rd on their Finals runs. Curry has led the reg season this year and the past 4 seasons outside of one 2nd. Overall it's the biggest net +/- in a 5 year stretch in history even if he didn't play another game this year (he leads the league by a huge margin already despite missing weeks of action). In the Finals runs he was 2nd (by 1 point), not close in 15/16 (missed a host of games so makes sense) and 1st last season. Noticing a trend.
    Gathered data from 89-90 to 99-00 for all players who played at least 50 games in a season (regular season data only here) and sorted by BPM for ***** and giggles. Here is the top 20:

    Robinson (93-94) BPM 10.9 ---- .577 TS%
    Jordan (90-91) BPM 10.8 ---- .605 TS%
    Jordan (89-90) BPM 10.6 ---- .606 TS%
    Robinson (91-92) BPM 10.0 ---- .597 TS%
    Barkley (90-91) BPM 9.9 ---- .635 TS%
    Barkley (89-90) BPM 9.8 ---- .661 TS%
    O'neal (99-00) BPM 9.7 ---- .578 TS%
    Johnson (89-90) BPM 9.5 ---- .622 TS%
    Jordan (92-93) BPM 9.5 ---- .564 TS%
    Robinson (95-96) BPM 9.2 ---- .589 TS%
    Jordan (95-96) BPM 8.6 ---- .582 TS%
    Jordan (91-92) BPM 8.6 ---- .579 TS%
    Malone (96-97) BPM 8.5 ---- .600 TS%
    Drexler (91-92) BPM 8.4 ---- .560 TS%
    Olajuwon (92-93) BPM 8.4 ---- .577 TS%
    Robinson (94-95) BPM 8.4 ---- .602 TS%
    Robinson (90-91) BPM 8.4 ---- .615 TS%
    Barkley (92-93) BPM 8.3 ---- .596 TS%
    Johnson (90-91) BPM 8.3 ---- .623 TS%
    Pippen (93-94) BPM 8.3 ---- .544 TS%
    Last edited by lol, please; 01-12-2018 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    For the same reason Shaq only won 1 MVP, he didn't put in the effort to dominate all the time, but he proved how dominant he was when it mattered. Earlier I asked if Shaq ever had a series as bad as Curry did in 2016, and the point of it was to illustrate that Curry's numbers look better because he tries every single round, but Shaq generally sleepwalked through things he didn't have to try to dominate.

    Here are their numbers for the playoffs total:

    Curry (15-17): 36.4 MPG 27.2 PPG (37.1 points per 100 possessions)
    Shaq (99-02): 42.3 MPG 29.9 PPG (37.3 points per 100 possessions)

    So for the playoffs overall in those years both Curry and Shaq score roughly the same amount per possession.

    But if we look at just the WCF and Finals those years here are the results we get:
    Curry (15-17): 37.3 MPG 27.2 PPG
    Shaq (00-02): 43.3 MPG 31.5 PPG


    So we see in the WCF/Finals Curry scores the same PPG on a minute more playing time whereas Shaq scores 1.6 more PPG on a minute more playing time.

    Remember, they scored the same per 100 possession for the playoffs overall, yet in the last 2 rounds Shaq increases his scoring output while Curry's stays the same.

    That to me suggests that Shaq is more unguardable when it matters most. Curry cooks teams the Dubs can sleepwalk through in the playoffs. Here are some of his series averages against overmatched opponents:

    33.8 PPG vs Pelicans 1st Round 2015 (Dubs 4-0)
    34.5 PPG vs Blazers 2nd Round 2016 (Dubs 4-1)
    29.8 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 2017 (Dubs 4-0)
    31.5 PPG vs Spurs (sans Kawhi) WCF 2017 (Dubs 4-0)


    Now consider in tougher matchups he scores less:

    24.5 PPG vs Grizzlies 2nd Round 2015 (Dubs 4-2)
    26.0 PPG vs Cavs Finals 2015 (Dubs 4-2)
    27.9 PPG vs Thunder WCF 2016 (Dubs 4-3)
    22.6 PPG vs Cavs Finals 2016 (Cavs 4-3)


    When we look at Shaq we see the exact opposite, he often scored the least in series the Lakers swept, meaning he sleptwalk through those series:

    27.0 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 01 (Lakers 4-0)
    27.0 PPG vs Spurs WCF 01 (Lakers 4-0)
    25.7 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 02 (Lakers 4-0)
    21.4 PPG vs Spurs 2nd Round 02 (Lakers 4-1)

    So yeah the numbers say in totality Curry scored as much as Shaq at his peak in the playoffs (or at the same rate), but when you actually look beyond the totals you see that Curry scored as much because he scored well against clearly outclassed teams whereas Shaq took many of those first and second round series off and dominated more in the Finals.

    Here are their Finals numbers:

    Curry: 24.9 PPG
    Shaq: 35.9 PPG


    If you want to say Curry is more consistently great a scorer than Shaq, sure. Absolutely. But the whole point of "who is more unguardable" is differentiating when the going gets tough, who is tougher to stop? And it seems as if the answer is Shaq.

    This is similar to trying to use LeBron's regular season numbers against him (as you like to do with +/-) when everybody knows he becomes a completely different player when the playoffs hit. Well, the same was true of Shaq during his peak. You knew you weren't going to get full effort from Shaq unless he felt he needed to bring full effort, but when he did, you saw him dominate to a more unguardable level than Curry has thus far shown.
    I like where your head is at but this is pretty underwhelming analysis for the fact that you're leaving out efficiency entirely, drawing grand conclusions from an increase in 1-2 ppg (very well could have just been more hack a shaq those series), and are excluding playmaking ability entirely.

  3. #78
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    Curry hasn't been the playoff performer Shaq has. So no.

  4. #79
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    I do think the words, "ungaurdable" and "unstoppable" are just hot-take words that send people to an immediate visceral reaction to "SHAQ>" and that it's not a debate worth entertaining. I wonder if the same reeling reaction would be had if you just said, "who is the more potent offensive weapon?".

    In reality my first comment in this thread was just trolling a bit as I know that 99% of people will immediately side with Shaq like it's not a legit question. It is, though. As much as some people on here strangely want to diminish everything Curry has done this past half decade+, he is an absolute force of nature offensively that brings a GOAT level of impact to that side of the floor. And going back to IknowHoops comment earlier in saying, "The Warriors are just an offensive machine that keeps on flowing with or without him", just highlights how lost people seem to be concerning that impact. It's certainly not bored out if you watch the game know or know the on/off (RAPM, etc) stats, so this is one hell of a strong narrative keeping a lot of fans in the dark.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    I like where your head is at but this is pretty underwhelming analysis for the fact that you're leaving out efficiency entirely, drawing grand conclusions from an increase in 1-2 ppg (very well could have just been more hack a shaq those series), and are excluding playmaking ability entirely.
    If you want to hand jam the TS% calculations for all those series you're more than welcome but there's no way to have it automatically shown.

    But even the little of efficiency we can glean reinforces my point, here is Steph's efficiency in the series where he struggled:

    vs Griz 2nd round 15 - .559 TS% (24.5 PPG)
    vs Cavs Finals 15 - .585 TS% (26.0 PPG)
    vs Thunder WCF 16 - .612 TS% (27.9 PPG)
    vs Cavs Finals 16 - .580 TS% (22.6 PPG)

    Certainly not bad but definitely a drop from the absurd TS% he normally posts. In fact, the only Finals when he had a +.600 TS% was the 17 Finals with KD (.619).

    Here are Shaq's Finals efficiency:

    2000 .576 TS% (38.0 PPG)
    2001 .575 TS% (33.0 PPG)
    2002 .636 TS% (36.3 PPG)

    So his worst 2 efficiency series are right around Curry's (slightly lower) but he scores massively more PPG. I'll take that trade off.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    I do think the words, "ungaurdable" and "unstoppable" are just hot-take words that send people to an immediate visceral reaction to "SHAQ>" and that it's not a debate worth entertaining. I wonder if the same reeling reaction would be had if you just said, "who is the more potent offensive weapon?".

    In reality my first comment in this thread was just trolling a bit as I know that 99% of people will immediately side with Shaq like it's not a legit question. It is, though. As much as some people on here strangely want to diminish everything Curry has done this past half decade+, he is an absolute force of nature offensively that brings a GOAT level of impact to that side of the floor. And going back to IknowHoops comment earlier in saying, "The Warriors are just an offensive machine that keeps on flowing with or without him", just highlights how lost people seem to be concerning that impact. It's certainly not bored out if you watch the game know or know the on/off (RAPM, etc) stats, so this is one hell of a strong narrative keeping a lot of fans in the dark.
    Well there's a difference in those questions (hence my point). And I'm not Curry hater, I think he is unquestionably in the Top 5 best offensive players of all-time (and that's setting a very low floor) and could easily contend for the best offensive player ever, with guys like MJ and Shaq, etc.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well there's a difference in those questions (hence my point). And I'm not Curry hater, I think he is unquestionably in the Top 5 best offensive players of all-time (and that's setting a very low floor) and could easily contend for the best offensive player ever, with guys like MJ and Shaq, etc.
    Fair enough, but the underlying point to me is, if this man is considered to be an "UNGAURDABLE, UNSTOPPABLE FORCE", I want to see a hell of a lot better efficiency out of him. I'd at the VERY least need to see his eFG% (so not including FT's) be staunchly higher than Curry in the playoffs, and not the exact same (and lower through their peaks). Now toss in the fact that you can simply foul the guy and you're easily living with the results of his FT shooting (where as the other guy is a GOAT FT shooter), and it's muddled even more still. When a guy is shooting 39% in a Finals series from the stripe, you can guard that guy, period. It's an unfinished offensive weapon. Toss in the massive playmaking chasm (not just APG, but all the secondary assists and plays where he doesn't even touch the ball but somehow we get a backdoor oop because all the pressure is on him off the ball), and that only makes Curry tougher to stop.

    It's a legitimate debate, I'll leave it at that. We still have a lot of prime ball from Curry to see, mind you.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    I love what you say about Shaq here. I really do still think he's criminally underrated - Don't see how or why anyone who have him lower than 3 on any all-time list. No other name comes to mind first when I hear the word dominance with regards to basketball. He defined the word.

    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

    Shaq was called a modern day Wilt for a reason, we just didn't get to see Wilt and his first 7 seasons, which go beyond the word dominance

    those are my 2 Centers I would roll with in a draft, 1 and 2 in that order with Dream/Jabbar right there battling for 3rd pick

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Fair enough, but the underlying point to me is, if this man is considered to be an "UNGAURDABLE, UNSTOPPABLE FORCE", I want to see a hell of a lot better efficiency out of him. I'd at the VERY least need to see his eFG% (so not including FT's) be staunchly higher than Curry in the playoffs, and not the exact same (and lower through their peaks). Now toss in the fact that you can simply foul the guy and you're easily living with the results of his FT shooting (where as the other guy is a GOAT FT shooter), and it's muddled even more still. When a guy is shooting 39% in a Finals series from the stripe, you can guard that guy, period. It's an unfinished offensive weapon. Toss in the massive playmaking chasm (not just APG, but all the secondary assists and plays where he doesn't even touch the ball but somehow we get a backdoor oop because all the pressure is on him off the ball), and that only makes Curry tougher to stop.

    It's a legitimate debate, I'll leave it at that. We still have a lot of prime ball from Curry to see, mind you.
    Curry is going into his 10th season, that is not a lot of prime left, we view prime ages diff. because I felt Curry was primed coming out of Davidson, it was only the ankle problem that kept him from I guess going off but his game was still what is was with a handle he worked on as well, he was a lights out shooter at Davidson and almost 10yrs into his career he is a lights out shooter, so was his father Dell

    I would love to see Curry on a bottom feeder jacking high volume shots just so we can see what he really is, a lights out shooter with no rings or mvp's but those 3's would be special indeed because of the sheer high volume he would take, then the narrative would be Steph is a good player who shoots a bunch of 3's

    so the most unguardable guy in the history of the game is basically a 3pt shooter? I done seen and heard it all

    and stop bringing up ts%, that doesn't prove nothing when actually watching the film

    Shaq would be my pick but if Curry was there after someone drafted Shaq I would be good with the best range shooter pretty much all time

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by europagnpilgrim View Post
    Curry is going into his 10th season, that is not a lot of prime left, we view prime ages diff. because I felt Curry was primed coming out of Davidson, it was only the ankle problem that kept him from I guess going off but his game was still what is was with a handle he worked on as well, he was a lights out shooter at Davidson and almost 10yrs into his career he is a lights out shooter, so was his father Dell

    I would love to see Curry on a bottom feeder jacking high volume shots just so we can see what he really is, a lights out shooter with no rings or mvp's but those 3's would be special indeed because of the sheer high volume he would take, then the narrative would be Steph is a good player who shoots a bunch of 3's

    so the most unguardable guy in the history of the game is basically a 3pt shooter? I done seen and heard it all

    and stop bringing up ts%, that doesn't prove nothing when actually watching the film

    Shaq would be my pick but if Curry was there after someone drafted Shaq I would be good with the best range shooter pretty much all time
    Curry is in his 9th season and in his peak, there is no signs of him slowing down in the least. Nash would have multiple MVPs and 5 All NBA teams after Currys current age. And Nash wasn't what Curry is. It's cute that you think he would just be "good player/volume shooter" on a bottom feeder though lol. You don't get how dominant he is.

  11. #86
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    The correct answer is C) Neither, Nick Young is.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by europagnpilgrim View Post
    Curry is going into his 10th season, that is not a lot of prime left, we view prime ages diff. because I felt Curry was primed coming out of Davidson, it was only the ankle problem that kept him from I guess going off but his game was still what is was with a handle he worked on as well, he was a lights out shooter at Davidson and almost 10yrs into his career he is a lights out shooter, so was his father Dell

    I would love to see Curry on a bottom feeder jacking high volume shots just so we can see what he really is, a lights out shooter with no rings or mvp's but those 3's would be special indeed because of the sheer high volume he would take, then the narrative would be Steph is a good player who shoots a bunch of 3's

    so the most unguardable guy in the history of the game is basically a 3pt shooter? I done seen and heard it all

    and stop bringing up ts%, that doesn't prove nothing when actually watching the film

    Shaq would be my pick but if Curry was there after someone drafted Shaq I would be good with the best range shooter pretty much all time
    I also view a players prime differently than most on here but this is way off.

    The changes Curry has gone through over his pro career are drastic - if you think Curry was prime in college, you would have to consider him a god at this point if you're going to be consistent. His ball handling, bbiq, passing, movement off the ball, defense, and even shooting has improved since his rookie year.

    You can admit you haven't paid attention to him sijnce college, but to suggest he hasn't improved since is laughable and literally nothing supports such a comment.


    Also don't be a fool and dismiss TS%, it doesnt take a very high education level to understand that the eye test, while it has its purpose, is very flawed, and biased, and thus not an objective measure in any way.

    @tredigs thanks for skipping over my BPM list I made for you, smh lol

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    I also view a players prime differently than most on here but this is way off.

    The changes Curry has gone through over his pro career are drastic - if you think Curry was prime in college, you would have to consider him a god at this point if you're going to be consistent. His ball handling, bbiq, passing, movement off the ball, defense, and even shooting has improved since his rookie year.

    You can admit you haven't paid attention to him sijnce college, but to suggest he hasn't improved since is laughable and literally nothing supports such a comment.


    Also don't be a fool and dismiss TS%, it doesnt take a very high education level to understand that the eye test, while it has its purpose, is very flawed, and biased, and thus not an objective measure in any way.

    @tredigs thanks for skipping over my BPM list I made for you, smh lol

    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
    Hahah no I liked that, I just didn't have anything to add.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Curry is in a perfect free flowing offense that hits on all cylinders whether he is there or not wtf Tre. He's the shiniest wheel on a rolls Royce of an offense.

    Shaq had to Carry a team that would have been a first round exit without him. Everything you have said falls outside the context of being the more dependable dominator, which means you are more dominance. Those stats don't mean anything if Shaq is going to the bench in the 4th of blowouts in the 1st round of playoffs.
    I hate agreeing with you but the Rolls Royce analogy is right on the button

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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