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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by europagnpilgrim View Post
    in either that game or another game he crossed up Jordan as well it just didn't get the media worship from ESPN and others but it was Just as vicious, I recall talking to nba players and they were saying how locker talk was around the league and they would tell teammates to tape up the ankles extra tight, Iverson is in town
    That is Jordan......lol you're killing me europagnpilgrim

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    But Steph was responsible for creating that Warriors culture. Allen Iverson wasn't. The team built around him. Steph was a part of the Warriors even when they tried to build Monta Ellis over him. Iverson on the Warriors (pre-KD) wouldn't even be a top five team, IMO. Iverson just gets vastly overrated by casual fans. Not calling you one but the guy wasn't a winning player. Nothing points to him ever being able to win. Like I said, outside of that lone Finals appearance, this guy never did anything remarkably close to what Curry has been able to accomplish. That Sixers team was built on guys covering for Allen's mistakes. Surround Allen with great defenders and length and have Allen shoot every shot. Now, imagine a guy like Curry who was just a better scorer than Allen Iverson could ever dream of being. Being able to score the ball does not correlate well with inefficient shot attempts. And Curry wouldn't need to play 45 minutes to put away a team. He could do it in 36 or less minutes. The only advantage Iverson has over Curry would be athleticism and that actually still doesn't matter because Iverson's height and stature was below Curry's.
    No offense taken man. I can understand some of your points.... maybe it's because I was used to watching Iverson play back then (my first years of watching basketball involved the Raptors, and I still have memory of the 7gamer between Philly/Toronto where he went off for 50 in multiple games )
    Quote Originally Posted by P&GRealist View Post
    Sometimes, perception isn't reality.

    But Tittays are forever.


    I FOUND THE LEGENDARY THREAD

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  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Except the Sixers were a good team for a long time with AI. Sure they didn't win a ring, but again I put that more on the team around him than him as a player.
    Wait, I thought the narrative was that the team around him was so awful.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by europagnpilgrim View Post
    you should stop reading it because you will keep looking more foolish the longer you try and reply to what you say

    you said he was in a weakass East right? so I said he had the weakass roster to match, what does that have to do with feelings and nostalgia? nothing

    it wasn't a miracle to win 50 games with that team? you guys really overrating his support cast to almost unreal levels

    and if they had drafted right after the 96' draft getting Iverson then his fortunes would have been greater, you don't think 3 HOF'ers in their youth is not better than what Iverson had from 98-2004? if you cant see that basic logic then you need to take on another sport or field
    Flash already handled this, and you didn't even stick with the basic flow of your own arguments.

    The Sixers were built for AI, and were over .500 without him, and he pointed out how weak the conference was without issue.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    When did I do that? Don't lump me in either other people.



    See this is the extension of the argument that loses credibility with me. I grew up on the 90s Knicks and got to see Iverson's entire career. The idea that he was a negative player is an easy argument for people to make now in the modern era of efficiency by using his FG%/TS% but it's a false narrative. I was there. Simplifying his entire offensive impact to field goal percentage ignores aspects of basketball that are tougher to quantify.

    He was guarded by the best defenders, drew the attention of the defense, averaged 10 free throws per game, created for his teammates, etc. How else could a team of mckie/snow/mutombo/ratliff/etc. rank 13th in offensive efficiency even with him "chucking" his way to 30 points? It's because his value goes far beyond his shooting percentage. I don't see people ranking him top 10 point guard or shoot guard. It's accepted by the majority of people that Curry is better. But to say he's a negative player. I just don't agree.
    They were better when he left for Denver (went from 5-12 at the time of the trade to 30-35 after he left) and returned to a .500 team after he was gone for the next two seasons, after being a .452% winning team the three years prior.

    I hate to break this to every one, but AI's lifetime wins vs loses in regular season games is 458-448. That's a .5055%. His teams, while he was on their rosters, was 552-538, that's a .5064%

    They were 104-90 without him (.536)

    The only year that his team sucked while he sat was in 02

    The year he showed up in Denver? They were 14-9 (.608%), before they got him, and finished out 31-28, 26-24 in the games he played in (.520%)

    It isn't just the bad shooting. His teams were literally better without him.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    They were better when he left for Denver (went from 5-12 at the time of the trade to 30-35 after he left) and returned to a .500 team after he was gone for the next two seasons, after being a .452% winning team the three years prior.

    I hate to break this to every one, but AI's lifetime wins vs loses in regular season games is 458-448. That's a .5055%. His teams, while he was on their rosters, was 552-538, that's a .5064%

    They were 104-90 without him (.536)

    The only year that his team sucked while he sat was in 02

    The year he showed up in Denver? They were 14-9 (.608%), before they got him, and finished out 31-28, 26-24 in the games he played in (.520%)

    It isn't just the bad shooting. His teams were literally better without him.
    Would you compare him to this generation's Rudy Gay or Monte Ellis? I mean, once those guys left Memphis/Toronto, and Goldens State respectively, those teams started to play much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by P&GRealist View Post
    Sometimes, perception isn't reality.

    But Tittays are forever.


    I FOUND THE LEGENDARY THREAD

    https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sh...es-to-Redskins

  7. #217
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    No point in discussing with Euro. He doesn't respond back with facts to defend his argument. Most (if not all) of his arguments are based off what he believes to be true but what everyone else finds silly.

    He still has not reasoned as to how Philly was able to win an NBA series in which Iverson shot about 34% from the field and was outplayed by the other best player on the opposing team. Can you imagine any traditional NBA superstar winning a game, let alone a series, shooting 34% from the field but his teammates being of no help?

    Iverson wasn't even the best player in 3/4 of the NBA playoff series in 2001 - the only season he was actually successful at leading his team to anything worth mentioning.

    Iverson was an inefficient chucker who knew how to shoot the ball but didn't know how to score it efficiently.

    Funny how you say Iverson was such a great defender because he led the league in steals but yet, you can't tell me why their defensive rating as a team sucked in Allen's beginning years and Iverson still racked up SPG. Funny how Larry Brown shows up and Philly starts playing defense. Funny how Dikembe gets into Philly and they reach the Finals but it must have been Allen's defense that allowed him to win it..

    If you're going to talk about having no team, was Iverson's team really any worse than the Cavs in 09? LeBron had no team.

    He keeps ignoring how Dikembe was DPOY that season. How many superstars would want a DPOY on their team?

    Also ignores the fact Philly was 6-5 without Allen. If they are that bad, how is it a team designed to compliment Allen Iverson was able to win more games than lose? Yes, short sample size but shouldn't they be getting blown out?

    Here's the secret, Euro. Sixers didn't win games by trying to jack up the scoreboard. The heart of the team was defense. Allen Iverson was only there to supplement the scoring so they could hold on for dear life. It's why he played 44 mintues - because his inefficiency caused them to have to delay the game that long.

    Like I said already, this is past dry. I still have not read a decent argument from you and that's after you type up an entire Wikipedia page. Oh great, more quotes about someone saying "tape up your ankles, Iverson is coming to town."

  8. #218
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    I wanted to have some fun, and here's as far back as we could go:

    00-01: ORtg on 104.1; ORtg off 100.2 DRtg on 98.4; DRtg off 98.6
    01-02: ORtg on 103.4; ORtg off 98.4 DRtg on 98.1; DRtg off 103.2
    02-03: ORtg on 104.6; ORtg off 102.3 DRtg on 102.3; DRtg off 98.8
    03-04: ORtg on 99.8; ORtg off 98.0 DRtg on 102.0; DRtg off 101.3
    04-05: ORtg on 104.9; ORtg off 95.8 DRtg on 104.8; DRtg off 100.3
    05-06: ORtg on 108.4; ORtg off 98.4 DRtg on 108.5; DRtg off 107.2


    Just makes you think about how bad he was on offense and how much he cost defensively huh?

    PROCESSING

  9. #219
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    you know when someone argues that having high steals means that player is an elite defender that that person doesnt know **** about basketball.

    seriously takes a basketball IQ bordering on retardation to thjink that.
    Quote Originally Posted by NormSizedMidget View Post
    It's different now than it was.

    When he won the second one, Giants fans are here we're outside of their minds.
    That quote always cracks me up.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by basch152 View Post
    you know when someone argues that having high steals means that player is an elite defender that that person doesnt know **** about basketball.

    seriously takes a basketball IQ bordering on retardation to thjink that.
    I'd say your the one that doesn't know jack if you think steals aren't related to defense. Outside of a player being careless and moronic with the ball, or a miscommunication on a pass, steals are created....wait for it....by defensive efforts, individual, or collaborative.

    It's not some 1:1 conclusion, but there is a relationship

    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    I'd say your the one that doesn't know jack if you think steals aren't related to defense. Outside of a player being careless and moronic with the ball, or a miscommunication on a pass, steals are created....wait for it....by defensive efforts, individual, or collaborative.

    It's not some 1:1 conclusion, but there is a relationship

    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
    who said steals aren't related to defense? this is another dumbass strawman argument related to a low IQ arguments.

    but people who tend to make the "he has high steals so he MUST have good defense" tend to have **** basketball IQ tend.

    no, having high steals does not mean good defense. it's more related to playing a **** ton of minutes and tending to be a player who is complete **** on defense so the defender takes a ton of chances on defense to make up for his shity defense.

    playing 40+ minutes you're going to get steals regardless of how ****** the defense is is siimply a low IQ argument.

    Stockton was a GREAT defender, but not elite who was very good at playing passing lanes, but you see dumbasses who think he was some GOD on defense.

    look at Gary Payton who WAS a GOD on defense. he didn't have as many steals so you see the argument all the time that Stockton was a better defender which is completely ridiculous.
    Last edited by basch152; 01-12-2018 at 05:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by NormSizedMidget View Post
    It's different now than it was.

    When he won the second one, Giants fans are here we're outside of their minds.
    That quote always cracks me up.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I wanted to have some fun, and here's as far back as we could go:

    00-01: ORtg on 104.1; ORtg off 100.2 DRtg on 98.4; DRtg off 98.6
    01-02: ORtg on 103.4; ORtg off 98.4 DRtg on 98.1; DRtg off 103.2
    02-03: ORtg on 104.6; ORtg off 102.3 DRtg on 102.3; DRtg off 98.8
    03-04: ORtg on 99.8; ORtg off 98.0 DRtg on 102.0; DRtg off 101.3
    04-05: ORtg on 104.9; ORtg off 95.8 DRtg on 104.8; DRtg off 100.3
    05-06: ORtg on 108.4; ORtg off 98.4 DRtg on 108.5; DRtg off 107.2


    Just makes you think about how bad he was on offense and how much he cost defensively huh?
    It really saddens me that you are trying so hard that you took some time, any time, on this.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    It really saddens me that you are trying so hard that you took some time, any time, on this.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Where do you have Iverson ranked all-time?

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    Where do you have Iverson ranked all-time?
    Serious? That's like asking where Kevin Martin is on my all-time list. I'm not saying he's above Allen Iverson, but "ain't nobody got time for that"

    You?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Serious? That's like asking where Kevin Martin is on my all-time list. I'm not saying he's above Allen Iverson, but "ain't nobody got time for that"

    You?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk


    Would take me a while to sort out 20-100+ on my all time list. Was just wondering if you had him in a rough range off the top.

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