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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Am I the only one who doesn't want to sign J.D. Martinez to a five or six year deal in the $200-$250 million dollar range?
    I don't think anyone is jumping for joy at the idea - even boston or other teams that spend to the cap - but please share your other ideas that propel this offense from worst to one of the best without gutting the future.
    The way i see the martinez addition is... we have smoak who will at least replace some of encarnacion's production, but we need a major piece to match what we got from bautista when he was decent. then you hope for health and decent production from the other areas of the team and we should have a competitive offense. I'm open to anything that doesnt involve Vlad, Bo, Pearson or Warmoth - but we certainly need to add a major bat if we hope to compete. This offense was not average last year, they were horrible. Adding more average players wont take this offense to where it needs to be.

    everyone talks about the playoff break out like it was based on pitching because we had a healthy pitching staff that season but if you think back to that team they were by far the best offense in the league. The pitching was steady but it was the offense that made the difference. same with the playoffs this year. the teams that won were the best offenses.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I don't think anyone is jumping for joy at the idea - even boston or other teams that spend to the cap - but please share your other ideas that propel this offense from worst to one of the best without gutting the future.
    The way i see the martinez addition is... we have smoak who will at least replace some of encarnacion's production, but we need a major piece to match what we got from bautista when he was decent. then you hope for health and decent production from the other areas of the team and we should have a competitive offense. I'm open to anything that doesnt involve Vlad, Bo, Pearson or Warmoth - but we certainly need to add a major bat if we hope to compete. This offense was not average last year, they were horrible. Adding more average players wont take this offense to where it needs to be.

    everyone talks about the playoff break out like it was based on pitching because we had a healthy pitching staff that season but if you think back to that team they were by far the best offense in the league. The pitching was steady but it was the offense that made the difference. same with the playoffs this year. the teams that won were the best offenses.
    You're absolutely correct!. We're the oldest team in the league. We are far more likely to decline than bounce back.

    Martin is a catcher, he has caught thousands of innings. He'll be 35 on opening day and no replacement in sight

    Morales, 35 in may, wasn't all that last year. And yet people expect more now?

    Tulowitzki, 33 injury prone and has played as many as 131 games only once since 2011

    Smoak, 31 just had a career year that was totally out of line with the rest of his career. And history indicates he should regress at
    Least a bit.

    That's the heart of our batting order. The only sure thing is Donaldson. Stroman is fine but Sanchez is coming off injury so how can we know how many innings he's good for? Estrada and Happ were up and down last year and they're a year older.

    And you can't legitimately expect them to make up 15 games with minor additions

  3. #48
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    I'm not worried about Martin and infact still like him as our main C. He works well with the pitchers and still provieds at least meh offensive prodcution from a C. many catchers seem to work into their late 30's these days if they can hit a bit.

    I'm banking on Smoak producing next season. if he doesn't, then it doesn't matter what we add. we need his contribution. Picture what this team would have looked like without him last season.

    I also still like Morales' bat. If he played any position at all he would be considered a stud. if he becomes a bat off the bench in these next 2 years then he is still a good weapon to have there (worst case), and that means someone stepped up and stole his at-bats.

    We've gotten younger so far this offseason which is great.... but we need to get more productive. We need guys who can be relied on to produce big.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I'm not worried about Martin and infact still like him as our main C. He works well with the pitchers and still provieds at least meh offensive prodcution from a C. many catchers seem to work into their late 30's these days if they can hit a bit.

    I'm banking on Smoak producing next season. if he doesn't, then it doesn't matter what we add. we need his contribution. Picture what this team would have looked like without him last season.

    I also still like Morales' bat. If he played any position at all he would be considered a stud. if he becomes a bat off the bench in these next 2 years then he is still a good weapon to have there (worst case), and that means someone stepped up and stole his at-bats.

    We've gotten younger so far this offseason which is great.... but we need to get more productive. We need guys who can be relied on to produce big.
    we scored the fewest runs in the league last year. so even if we stay the same despite the increasing age, thats not enough.

    we need to improve run scoring and nothing we've added done that and its not like our Main competition hasnt or wont improve. in this division you cant basically stand still or make minor additions and expect not to pay for it. thats all im saying.

    who cares if our bench players are better if our starters arent good enough in the first place?

    as i see it Donaldson will be traded in july, because as of right now we're more likely to finish last than we are to finish ahead of Boston or NY

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I don't think anyone is jumping for joy at the idea - even boston or other teams that spend to the cap - but please share your other ideas that propel this offense from worst to one of the best without gutting the future.
    The way i see the martinez addition is... we have smoak who will at least replace some of encarnacion's production, but we need a major piece to match what we got from bautista when he was decent. then you hope for health and decent production from the other areas of the team and we should have a competitive offense. I'm open to anything that doesnt involve Vlad, Bo, Pearson or Warmoth - but we certainly need to add a major bat if we hope to compete. This offense was not average last year, they were horrible. Adding more average players wont take this offense to where it needs to be.

    everyone talks about the playoff break out like it was based on pitching because we had a healthy pitching staff that season but if you think back to that team they were by far the best offense in the league. The pitching was steady but it was the offense that made the difference. same with the playoffs this year. the teams that won were the best offenses.
    I'm not sure there is an ideal way. I would rather Cain at 4/75 then Martinez at 5/200 though that's for sure. If you can't get Cain then sign Cargo hope he has a good year and unad him at the deadline. If you give that to Martinez and ( for arguments sake) the same to Donaldson, that's a 120 million/year for four guys over 30. I get that you could backload the deal but paying a 34 year old Martinez 45-50/yr is nit the best way to build a championship.

  6. #51
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    This team can compete if you sign a Cain and Lynn/Cobb. We won't be in it for the division but def a WC

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    This team can compete if you sign a Cain and Lynn/Cobb. We won't be in it for the division but def a WC
    i dont know if that would be enough to guarantee anything, but i do agree it would put us in the conversation for the wild card if things break right

    im still concerned about age related decline, and Id really like to see us get backup catcher who can start 65 games or so if not go all in for Realmuto

    im just not a fan of this half in, half out strategy. pick a direction and own it. I kind of get the feeling that they are trying to fool the fanbase into thinking we're in this thing, while buying time for the rebuild they know is coming, but they dont want attendance to drop

    in a way they are saying we are stupid
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 01-08-2018 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    i dont know if that would be enough to guarantee anything, but i do agree it would put us in the conversation for the wild card if things break right

    im still concerned about age related decline, and Id really like to see us get backup catcher who can start 65 games or so if not go all in for Realmuto

    im just not a fan of this half in, half out strategy. pick a direction and own it. I kind of get the feeling that they are trying to fool the fanbase into thinking we're in this thing, while buying time for the rebuild they know is coming, but they dont want attendance to drop

    in a way they are saying we are stupid
    You should have that feeling because that is exactly what they are doing. The only question is can you live with it or will the complaining continue for the rest of our days

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    You should have that feeling because that is exactly what they are doing. The only question is can you live with it or will the complaining continue for the rest of our days

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
    If fans aren't vocal about their dissatisfaction will it ever change?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    If fans aren't vocal about their dissatisfaction will it ever change?
    Unfortunately, this has no barring on anything, the only thing that could cause "change" like that is attendance dropping. *****ing on a fan board that no one in the front office actually cares about or reads does nothing besides dropping the post count on this forum.

    FWIW, I agree with you btw; the half-assing is what drives me crazy too. Pick either direction and go with it, either trade Donaldson, Pillar, Osuna and build around Bo/Vlad or sign at the very least, Cain/Cobb and acquire another proven hitter (Yelich would be the dream) via trade. Of course, none of that is happening because with ~20 mil to spend, they'd be lucky to get ONE of those guys. Unfortunately, like it or not, Alex left us in a tough spot with the Martin/Tulo contracts, so we just have to live with it for now. That said, it's up to THIS front office to be smart enough and to realize when it's time to rebuild.... I can already see it now, "we had lots of discussions but we just couldn't get to the finish line. We still believe in this team and we can't worry about what other teams in the division do". Except, that's completely backwards thinking and everyone knows it. I get not going after JD Martinez at that price tag and Darvish was never coming here, but there's no reason this team can't justify a Cain/Cobb signing to actually give them a solid push towards a WC. If not, you might as well call up St. Louis and ask them if they're really serious about acquiring Donaldson and go from there.

  11. #56
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    Yeah' I'm not a fan of this half in/half out approach. I truly believe that it is coming from ownership just so they can get butts in the seat for another 1/2 season. It will come to head though in July when Happ/Estrada/Donaldson will be unloaded if they aren't in contention. That's why I wouldn't be against signing Cargo who you could flip at the deadline.

    That being said, if they go get Cain, Cobb and a soiled lefty reliever then they do have a shot but it seems like the money isn't there for that.

  12. #57
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    If Donaldson has a Donaldson-esque season then you should be able to get the same value at the deadline as you would now but it's a gamble.

  13. #58
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    All of Atkins latest interviews have him standing by the fact that he believes he can still make "significant additions" this off season, and that we shouldn't call the off season "over" until about half way through ST. I think we should be listening to him.

    Scott Boras' company represents almost all the major pieces in this years FA crop, and he is a notorious for waiting it out until the last minute to get the most money as possible for his clients. I have a feeling guys like Martinez, Arrietta and Darvish are all going to wait it out like Chris Davis did to get his 7 year deal 2 years ago.(..going into his age 30 season.) It doesn't sound like anyone is close to signing them to major deals, and I don't see Boras backing down and caving in any time soon. Since the big guys set the market every year, that is likely causing some of the second tier FA's to also wait it out hoping they are a team's second choice. Atkins was likely smart to focus his early efforts on trades and not time consuming FA negotiations that would still likely be going on now anyway.



    People forget just how easily Diaz and Solarte could end up being our "starting" SS and/or 2B this season. Last year Tulo played 66 games, and hasn't played more than 131 in the last 5 seasons. Last year Travis played in just 50 games and hasn't played more than 100 in his first 3 years. These are not "minor deals". Those roles are extremely important on this roster, and they were going to be virtual impossible to fill via FA with starting caliber players. Filling those 2 roster spots for ~6M combined and getting a former all-star who's versatile with 5 years of control, along with a versatile veteran with 1-3 years of control who hit 18 HR's last year in 466 AB's is amazing imo. The fact that he pulled it off without giving up any real prospect capital either is remarkable.

    The guy just solved the MI issue for the next 3 years with just Woodman, Olivares and Carkuff for crying out loud. People need to start respecting how great that is. Atkins did as much as come and and say it was their biggest need at the beginning of the season, and then he managed to go out and do this too. Both moves also proved that you can't listen to what you hear on the internet. While all the talk was on FA's and OF's like Yelich and Ozuna, Atkins was actually solving the MI. I think the most likely scenario moving forward is one day we are just going to hear about a trade that came out of nowhere for a either a corner OF or SP.

  14. #59
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    Itís hard to call it a half in half out situation right now when thereís still 80% of the FAís left. I totally agree with picking a direction but even though itís Jan. Thereís still way too many guys left.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Am I the only one who doesn't want to sign J.D. Martinez to a five or six year deal in the $200-$250 million dollar range?
    I think thatís the issue heís having is that nobody will go to 6.

    I love that Solarte is a switch hitter.

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