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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I don't view it that way. He was drafted as an insurance policy to Brady...So when/if Brady fell off a cliff or broke down, they had a man ready to go who could be a mainstay. Their insurance policy ran out. They cashed out. Lost zero value. They'll more than likely take that pick and draft another insurance policy and let it run its course for another 2 years.

    Additionally BB loves second round picks...And getting additional firsts or seconds from a team that's highly unstable and has an increased likelihood of not being able to re-sign Jimmy meant that BB couldn't control where he went. So after 8 games he could easily be out of CLE and a Free Agent in 2018. There's no chance Jimmy would want to stay in CLE. Jimmy being free to sign with BUF, NYJ or MIA isn't worth an extra first round pick.
    If they draft JG on the grounds that A) quarterback is too important to not have a contingency plan B) Brady is aging and requires an insurance policy then why let a viable young QB walk now with TB approaching 40? The logic makes no sense.

    I'll write more but Jimmy would be under CLE's control for 3 seasons, career likely over after being in that system. And does BB LOVE 2nd rounders or does trading down just mean more and you're not weighing the value?

  2. #152
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    If they draft JG on the grounds that A) quarterback is too important to not have a contingency plan B) Brady is aging and requires an insurance policy then why let a viable young QB walk now with TB approaching 40? The logic makes no sense.
    Makes perfect sense. Brady, at 40, is still incredibly productive. This season ranks in his top 6 seasons statistically. I'd expect he can still play at a high level for 1 MAYBE 2 more years. Draft a QB this year, he's backing up Brady in 2018 and 2019. Brady departs in 2020 and our draft pick, who's still cost controlled for 2 more years takes over at the same time/Age Jimmy would have been had he taken over for Brady this season.

    I'll write more but Jimmy would be under CLE's control for 3 seasons, career likely over after being in that system. And does BB LOVE 2nd rounders or does trading down just mean more and you're not weighing the value?
    CLE could keep him for 3. But who's to say they would. If Jimmy started 8 games post trade for CLE would he have been as successful as he was in SF? I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT. So would CLE be willing to Franchise Jimmy after the season if he had won a game or 2 and pay him $25 million? Nobody can answer that but I would say it's far from a guarantee that they would...

    City of Champions

  3. #153
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    A lot of talk around here mentioning Brady's age. I just disagree with it. This past season he put up MVP numbers and had a top 6 season statistically in Brady's career rankings.

    Let's brake it down

    Tom Brady Trimester Stats

    First trimester

    2001-2005
    -Playoffs 4 out of 5 years. 3 SB wins
    -0 top 6 statistical years

    Stats/Year
    Yards: 3,602
    TD: 24.6
    INT: 13.2
    TD:INT = 1.87:1
    Rate: 88.6
    AVG Age: 26

    Second trimester

    2006 – 2007 2009 -2011
    -Playoffs 5 out of 5 years. 2 SB appearances. 3 AFCCG appearances. 0 SB wins
    -3 of top 6 statistical years (2007, 2010, 2011)

    Stats/Year
    Yards: 4,374
    TD: 35.4
    INT: 9.8
    TD:INT = 3.62:1
    Rate: 103.58
    AVG Age: 31.5

    Third trimester

    2012-2016
    -Playoffs 5 out of 5 years. 5 AFCCG appearances. 2 SB wins
    -2 of top 6 statistical years (2015, 2016)
    ***Missed 4 games due to suspension***

    Stats/Year
    Yards: 4,321
    TD: 31.2
    INT: 7.4
    TD:INT = 4.22:1
    Rate: 99.56
    AVG Age: 37

    Now let’s compare to this past season now that we’re at age 40

    3,602 24.6 13.2 1.87:1 88.6 26
    4,374 35.4 9.8 3.62:1 103.58 31.5
    4,321 31.2 7.4 4.22:1 99.56 37

    4,577 32 8 4.00:1 102.8 40

    There is literally zero drop off this past season compared to the AVERAGE of his previous 5 SEASONS. Additionally, 3 of his top 6 statistical seasons have been the past 3 years (2015, 2016, 2017).

    Now I'm not naive and I don't think Tom Brady can play forever...BUT with his past 6 seasons being some of the best in the league statistically. With zero drop off in 2017 compared to his previous 5 seasons. And his last 3 seasons being 3 of his top seasons in his career...I think it's absolutely foolish to think in 2018 he will fall off a cliff. May he decline slightly? It's possible. It's also possible he plays similar to this year and his last 6. So now we have 2019...This could be the fall off the cliff year, that's entirely possible. But trends say it won't be.

    More than likely by 2020 Brady will finally fall off the proverbial cliff. If we draft a QB this draft, that gives us 2 seasons to groom him. That would be the same amount of time Jimmy Garoppollo had before this season, and I think we could all agree we would have been ok with Jimmy at QB for this season. (but still better with Brady).

    So what's the big uproar here? Why can't we let this play out and then look back? If Brady plays at similar levels to this season in 2018 and 2019 and then retires in 2020. We win 1 or 2 SB in that time span. And we have a QB who's 24-25 and has been groomed for 2 years...Are we really that bad off?

    City of Champions

  4. #154
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    Just a quick moment to drop in.

    So you maintain BK is a straight shooter?

    How about when he was discussing moving the team to CT, he claimed he was not.

    Liar in service of his business. You think that this is rare?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    spygate. false? no, directed by BB

    inflategate. check out the conversations in texts. Yeah, they were talking about a diet.... sure thing. phone? Oh yeah - destroyed.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    It's like all these religious right maggots. You shall. I judge. Ooops, I grab butts, I cheat.....

    The more people claim to be telling the truth, the more you should observe your wallet and your free will.

    BK is no naif unlike some here.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Draft a QB this year, he's backing up Brady in 2018 and 2019. Brady departs in 2020 and our draft pick, who's still cost controlled for 2 more years takes over at the same time/Age Jimmy would have been had he taken over for Brady this season.
    Didn't realize it was that easy. Meanwhile your 40 & 41 y/o quarterback will absorbing ~12% of the cap. Just sayin'.

    CLE could keep him for 3. But who's to say they would. If Jimmy started 8 games post trade for CLE would he have been as successful as he was in SF? I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT. So would CLE be willing to Franchise Jimmy after the season if he had won a game or 2 and pay him $25 million? Nobody can answer that but I would say it's far from a guarantee that they would.
    Jimmy would start in CLE all three years under the tag, just enough time for the scent of New England to wear off. Meanwhile his career would be destroyed in the Browns' program (agree there) and therefore just another system QB that wouldn't likely be a threat to the Pats in free agency.

    The problem here is you, and others, just willfully ignore the local and national reporting around the team. Somehow this thread has morphed into drafting philosophy, fans dancing around legitimate journalism from Bedard and others. It's looks JG to SF wasn't just a value judgement on 2nd rounds, but the result of internal conflict. Some of the comments from Kraft, Brady and Belichick since the shared statement certainly suggest that IMO.

  6. #156
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    I already posted this but again, based on this story, Brady or Jimmy had to go.

    https://nesn.com/2018/01/can-we-stop...mmy-garoppolo/

    I wish they could have kept them both for one more year but BB decided to move Jimmy. I think he needed to send him to a team where Jimmy would sign a long term deal to keep him out of the Pats hair. He also needed to get a backup Qb in the deal and that player was Hoyer. I don't think you can just look at the 2nd round compensation because there were other intrinsic values involved.

    Such as:

    Possibly four+ more years of Brady with a real shot at more Lombardis, a high 2nd rounder, an experienced backup Qb whose salary is a bargain, and Jimmy in a place where he won't cause any damage is a decent overall return on a tough decision IMO.

    Brady is too old to take hits? Anyone else remember Jimmy and his "Oh my God!" when he injured his shoulder vs the Fins? He may be the one that's not able to take the week to week punishment...we'll see.

    Here it is at the 2:05 mark:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6H8AYVygTE
    Last edited by TKO; 01-09-2018 at 11:56 PM.

  7. #157
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    There are potential injury and toughness concerns with Jimmy according to this Herald blurb:

    Garoppolo might have his own brilliant career as well, but the Patriots were wary of his ability to stay healthy after a sprained shoulder in his second start in 2016 and an eye-rolling calf injury that disrupted his organized team activities last spring. Again, to be fair, the sample size just wasn’t great enough to know for sure how durable Garoppolo will be, and he might ultimately be capable of leading a long, healthy career.


  8. #158
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    Didn't realize it was that easy. Meanwhile your 40 & 41 y/o quarterback will absorbing ~12% of the cap. Just sayin'.
    It's that easy...And I'm 100% certain that won't be the case. His contract will be restructured...Again...For like the 10th time in his career...Already stated this

    Jimmy would start in CLE all three years under the tag, just enough time for the scent of New England to wear off. Meanwhile his career would be destroyed in the Browns' program (agree there) and therefore just another system QB that wouldn't likely be a threat to the Pats in free agency.
    No team is going to franchise a 26 year old QB who had played 12 games and performed poorly/average in 8 games for a new team. I'd be confident in saying, it's literally never happened in NFL history. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.

    The problem here is you, and others, just willfully ignore the local and national reporting around the team. Somehow this thread has morphed into drafting philosophy, fans dancing around legitimate journalism from Bedard and others. It's looks JG to SF wasn't just a value judgement on 2nd rounds, but the result of internal conflict. Some of the comments from Kraft, Brady and Belichick since the shared statement certainly suggest that IMO.
    I'm not ignoring them...I just ignore speculative articles that present no actual facts or sources. Whether it's ESPN or local...Give me a name. Give me substance...All are lacking and have allowed you lackey's imaginations to run wild based on nonsense.

    Do I think there have been arguments and disagreements within Gillette at times this season? Sure. I think that's no different than any other past season. However, I see no evidence of anyone being fed up to the point they're going to leave or that this run is over in the next 2 years. I'm giving it 3-4 years and then BB will retire or at minimum get off the sidelines. Which has been my thought well before any of this crap his the internet.

    City of Champions

  9. #159
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    Just a quick moment to drop in.

    So you maintain BK is a straight shooter?

    How about when he was discussing moving the team to CT, he claimed he was not.

    Liar in service of his business. You think that this is rare?
    I'd say on the whole he has been. I don't think he's ever blatantly lied. Has he played poker (stare down with MA and leveraging CT) and politics (Goodell/Deflatgate/Spygate) sure...Any good business man does. I don't think this situation relates to either though.



    spygate. false? no, directed by BB

    inflategate. check out the conversations in texts. Yeah, they were talking about a diet.... sure thing. phone? Oh yeah - destroyed.
    I don't get what your point here is?



    It's like all these religious right maggots. You shall. I judge. Ooops, I grab butts, I cheat.....

    The more people claim to be telling the truth, the more you should observe your wallet and your free will.

    BK is no naif unlike some here.
    I don't see what your philosophical beliefs have to do with any of this...Other than further prove you'd never admit your wrong (as you haven't over the years when it comes to Brady's demise) and will continue to push propaganda with no factual basis of support....Just speculation and conjecture.

    At least elements1985 offers up some meaningful information and insight. I'm honestly disappointed in how far off your posts have fallen over the past year or so. I used to enjoy them. Now you just sound like CNN and ESPN. It's actually the main reason I haven't been on these boards of late. I used to come to see you and HPF's thoughts. Now I can't stand to read your dribble. Shame really.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 01-10-2018 at 07:37 AM.

    City of Champions

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Lots of local reporting well before the piece that wasn't factually wrong.

    Nobody with 1/2 a brain could trust BB, TB, or RK on this topic at this time. It's like expecting Ivanka to admit she spilled the beans on Trumps hair.

    How can you say the locals had the facts when no one said anything on the record, and the only three entities that really know the facts said they were wrong? Recall what the Tuna said about the media: "I swear you guys are Commies". The industry is rife with muckrakers looking to push their own agenda in a shrinking industry.

    It's obvious if you watch the Nightly Views. It's not about the truth, it's about the truth as they want you to see it. Like Commies, all the Trump hating networks are shaping their viewers opinions one way and the Trump loving ones are doing the opposite.

    Which networks have you been misled by? I bet you watch Morning Joe and get your daily Patriots scoops from Fred Smerlas...LOL!

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    It's that easy...And I'm 100% certain that won't be the case. His contract will be restructured...Again...For like the 10th time in his career...Already stated this
    Finding a viable QB to replace Brady is a looming crisis, especially when QB situation gives insight into the future and that future determines the fate of our coordinators. If Josh goes and takes a handful of young assistants, where's the coaching infrastructure to build up this young prospect?

    Moreover, half of the friggin' NCAA runs an unsophisticated read option or some shotgun/spread formation. So: finding a player available in late 1st or round 2-4 X someone amenable to Patriots pro offense X who immediately gets it in two years = high probability of becoming the Broncos. Especially from their draft history.

    2000 - Tom Brady
    2002 - Rohan Davey
    2003 - Cliff Kingsbury
    2005 - Matt Cassel
    2008 - Kevin O'Connell
    2010 - Zach Robinson
    2011 - Ryan Mallet
    2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo


    No team is going to franchise a 26 year old QB who had played 12 games and performed poorly/average in 8 games for a new team. I'd be confident in saying, it's literally never happened in NFL history. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.
    Fine. But if JG sucks too bad to be franchised in years 2 & 3 by CLE, why is then he a threat in the AFC East? You suggested SF was picked so Jimmy doesn't land in the division. So either he's so good that the Browns keep tagging him, or he's ruined by a garbage program and likely no threat wherever he lands in F/A.

    I'm not ignoring them...I just ignore speculative articles that present no actual facts or sources. Whether it's ESPN or local...Give me a name. Give me substance...All are lacking and have allowed you lackey's imaginations to run wild based on nonsense.
    Anonymous sources are used in journalism. If this were the 1970's, would you have been denying Watergate too? Saying the Senior FBI Official needed to go on record for the story to be believed?

    We can also use deductive reasoning too:

    Belichick's coaching/team-building philosophy is well established. And so aren't Brady's business interests with TB12, and stature with ownership. Right there is a conflict.

    And if it's true (IF!) that TB went to ownership and pushed Jimmy G out, you're talking about open hostility to the Patriot Way - perhaps more egregious than Moss, Haynesworth or Collins given Brady's stature, connection to the Krafts and the implications.

    Do I think there have been arguments and disagreements within Gillette at times this season? Sure. I think that's no different than any other past season. However, I see no evidence of anyone being fed up to the point they're going to leave or that this run is over in the next 2 years. I'm giving it 3-4 years and then BB will retire or at minimum get off the sidelines. Which has been my thought well before any of this crap his the internet.
    Once again Tomase said it best: the Garappolo situation tortured TB because, no matter how well he played, the situation was beyond his control. That's what makes this situation different from just sticking to script and "doing your job". If Brady leaves, it impacts TB12 and his post career business endeavors.
    Last edited by elements1985; 01-10-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  12. #162
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    Finding a viable QB to replace Brady is a looming crisis, especially when QB situation gives insight into the future and that future determines the fate of our coordinators. If Josh goes and takes a handful of young assistants, where's the coaching infrastructure to build up this young prospect?

    Moreover, half of the friggin' NCAA runs an unsophisticated read option or some shotgun/spread formation. So: finding a player available in late 1st or round 2-4 X someone amenable to Patriots pro offense X who immediately gets it in two years = high probability of becoming the Broncos. Especially from their draft history.

    2000 - Tom Brady
    2002 - Rohan Davey
    2003 - Cliff Kingsbury
    2005 - Matt Cassel
    2008 - Kevin O'Connell
    2010 - Zach Robinson
    2011 - Ryan Mallet
    2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo
    I never said it would be easy to find a QB, merely that it can be done. They turned Matt Cassell into a viable option (not a world beater by any means but good enough to go 11-5), Hoyer is serviceable enough and they found him on the UDFA wire. Jimmy G was found in the second round. So it can be done. To think we're going to find another TB is a fools errand, I certainly don't expect that. And to think Jimmy G is going to be the second coming is foolish as well. Has he looked good in an extremely small sample size, sure. But no guarantee he's not going to fall off. In fact, I'd bet a lot of money he's going to being he set such a high bar for himself in his first 5 games in SF.


    Fine. But if JG sucks too bad to be franchised in years 2 & 3 by CLE, why is then he a threat in the AFC East? You suggested SF was picked so Jimmy doesn't land in the division. So either he's so good that the Browns keep tagging him, or he's ruined by a garbage program and likely no threat wherever he lands in F/A.
    You know as well as I do that a good portion of any QB's success depends on system fit and organizational structure/roster around them. Cleveland is terrible, you know that, I know that. SF is a good organization that started a rebuild. They have a solid coach in place, a young roster, lots of draft picks and cash. Success in SF for ANYONE is a better bet than CLE. If Jimmy went to CLE and stunk (which there's a better chance than not of that happening there) they're not going to franchise him in 2018...Which means Jimmy more than likely would have walked...Potentially into our division. SF that's not going to happen.

    Anonymous sources are used in journalism. If this were the 1970's, would you have been denying Watergate too? Saying the Senior FBI Official needed to go on record for the story to be believed?
    There's a difference. One of the sources from the ESPN articles was a "friend of Brady" Why would a friend of Brady come out with that. That's not believable. A "source from the FBI" is a believable anonymous source. Completely different situations here. This is an awful comparison.

    We can also use deductive reasoning too:

    Belichick's coaching/team-building philosophy is well established. And so aren't Brady's business interests with TB12, and stature with ownership. Right there is a conflict.
    When has BB ever traded away an MVP? This is a false equivalency because trading TB would be unprecedented in BB's philosophy.

    And if it's true (IF!) that TB went to ownership and pushed Jimmy G out, you're talking about open hostility to the Patriot Way - perhaps more egregious than Moss, Haynesworth or Collins given Brady's stature, connection to the Krafts and the implications.
    IF it's true. There's no evidence to support it so I won't entertain it.

    Once again Tomase said it best: the Garappolo situation tortured TB because, no matter how well he played, the situation was beyond his control. That's what makes this situation different from just sticking to script and "doing your job". If Brady leaves, it impacts TB12 and his post career business endeavors.
    How so?

    City of Champions

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I was absolutely hoping for more in the offseason. I would even have preferred more at the deadline. Who wouldn't? I'm just saying there's a logical explanation behind it without ASSUMING BB is intentional trying to spite Kraft for an imaginary meeting...
    And this logical reason? His reading specs were weak and he thought it was three 2nds? He was backed up and just wanted to hit the can right at the deadline so he said - hey WTF....
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Why couldn't they get more for Chandler Jones? Jamie Collins? Mike Vrable? Matt Cassell? Randy Moss? I can easily make the argument they should have gotten more for all of them. They didn't, that's the point. It's a trend, not just a one off.
    ;

    Bad list:

    Cassell? He was tagged to deal him, if he was one year later in his contract the value given would have been well higher. Well higher than what he brought or what JG brought

    Vrabel - old player, dressing room lawyer that irritated BB, a throw in. How many effective games did he have left?

    Jones - ended up naked (semi?) in a police station whacked on sync weed, trade value was what?

    Collins - That was agreed on at the time by most that BB wanted him in Siberia and on a team that wouldn't deal him to one of our competitors. That was a low payback for a guy that had played great the year before, and was a straight mess the year they dealt him. Missing assignments all over the field trying to showboat for a contract. OTOH, BB slathered JG the 48 hours around the deal time more than the 18 years he has done for TB. Coincidence? Or message? Certainly JG was not blowing his tasks like Collins was he? And you well know it. Bogus.

    Moss - when he left all he had was his rep - which behavior/being a dog wise was very bad. Fans were goo-goo eyed for his past exploits. Tell us how much he did after he left. Right. Junk list.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Monster View Post
    Lots of good reasons that’s your tag.
    Anyone can see after the Celts got killed by the Cavs you were nowhere to be seen for a very long time. So willing to handout criticism, and so unwillng to be there to get it dished out on. What a man!

    Here are few thoughts on MVP before Wentz by national media was hurt:

    4) MORE LIKELY TO ... win the MVP award: Tom Brady or Carson Wentz?

    Brady's been legendary, posting the second-best completion rate (68.4), second-best yards-per-game mark (306.7) and third-best passer rating (111.7) of his 18-year career while leading New England to a 9-2 start. But it's Wentz. He's been everything for the best team in the NFL, recording a league-high nine games with two-plus touchdown passes. And then there's this: Wentz is currently pacing the league in touchdown passes (28) while playing for the team with the top record. The last eight players to do that for the year went on to be named MVP. So, yeah, Wentz is getting my vote.

    +++++++

    1. Carson Wentz, QB | Philadelphia Eagles

    Regular-season passing: 190-for-318 (59.7 percent); 2,430 yards; 25 TDs; 5 INT; 70.9 Total QBR

    The case for Wentz: He's the quarterback of the team with the best record and he leads the league in touchdown passes. That guy is always going to be a candidate, which is why Wentz received eight of the 12 first-place votes and four second-place votes. There's not much to not like. He's making good decisions, not turning the ball over, can help with his legs when the play's not there downfield ... you get the point. Coach Doug Pederson is nimbly altering the offense to fit its circumstances from week to week -- sometimes quarter to quarter -- and Wentz is in total command of it all.

    +++++++++



    Our MVP tracker after Week 12's games:

    1. QB Carson Wentz, Philadelphia Eagles (31 points): With five of seven first-place votes, he remains atop our poll for the sixth consecutive week. Wentz continues to lead the NFL with 28 TD passes, putting him on pace to throw 41. More important, he's led Philly to a league-best 10 wins, and the team could be wearing the NFC East crown before Week 13 is over. Last week: 1

    ++++++++++++++++++

    So sorry, only a fan boy would say that TB was a slam dunk at the time Wentz got hurt for the MVP. It was a very close battle. You certainly have demonstrated that that is who you are. Lacking objectivity, vision or courage to stand behind your words.

    BTW, TB has a 100+ QB Rating in his career when blitzed. This year it's 85. Cracks in the old mans game?

    Still now answer for his late season slide which you have dismissed, but not faced.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

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