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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valleyfella View Post
    I have no doubt there are tensions inside the organization but there is a lot in the story that screams "click bait" something I've felt with some of Wickersham's other articles. He also gets some of his facts wrong. Add that Peter King says that Kraft was genuinely f
    Murious at the idea he interfered and point blank denied that a meeting to discuss Jimmy G took place and the article is on less solid ground. I'm sure Wickersham got some of it right but enough wrong that it's anyone's guess as to which is which.
    Lots of local reporting well before the piece that wasn't factually wrong.

    Nobody with 1/2 a brain could trust BB, TB, or RK on this topic at this time. It's like expecting Ivanka to admit she spilled the beans on Trumps hair.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    One thing not lost on me is the Cleveland/Belichick connection. Sure, BB has no problem making a deal with them when he knows it won't change their outlook, but Jimmy was a different story because he's a difference maker. Belichick wasn't doing that city any favors because he remembers how they they rode him out of town on a rail.

    I think it played a role in the trade.
    You know nothing of BB if you think he'd pass up a nice extra bag full of picks because he's upset about some old feud that ended at about SB #2 since by then they realized he benched QB really was toast and BB was a master.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    I see you failed to answer my points - except with the Trumpian expediant of trying to flush them w/o addressing them. I thought you were above that.

    Again - when did TB win a SB betwen 2004 and 2014? Do you mind answering that? Or is that too difficult?
    I never said it guaranteed a SB win, that's idiotic. However between 2004-2014 they went to 2 SB's. They went to 3AFCCG. 2008 was an injury year so lets take that off the plate. Which leaves 2006 and 2009 as their worst years .... coincidently TB had his highest % of cap figures those years...hmmm

    City of Champions

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Macro conversations. Sure they have them often. Would never dispute that. I saw that interview BTW. You think that if BB put his foot down he wouldn't win the day w/ those two? Until this episode of course.

    New reporting today (national) that two days before JG was dealt the Browns asked if they could make an offer and were turned down. You really think BB is afraid enough of a Conference "rival" down on its luc k about to cough up more draft capital (say (my guess) a 1, 2, 3, 4 over a two year period) and accept a clearly inferiordeal to the NFC just so we'd play them less? I can see in the Division making a difference. But I cannot imagine no other NFC club beating that offer.
    I was absolutely hoping for more in the offseason. I would even have preferred more at the deadline. Who wouldn't? I'm just saying there's a logical explanation behind it without ASSUMING BB is intentional trying to spite Kraft for an imaginary meeting...

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  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    I don't really see the point. Seems like a way of dancing around a horrible trade. If BB prefers late round picks, wouldn't he want a 1st, which, through crafty wheeling and dealing, can become a cache of value picks across multiple drafts? Why not Jimmy for 2nds in 2018, 2019 and 2020? Isn't that optimal when your roster has so many holes?

    This draft philosophy argument suggests that zero internal conflict factored into the trade which has basically been disproved.
    Why couldn't they get more for Chandler Jones? Jamie Collins? Mike Vrable? Matt Cassell? Randy Moss? I can easily make the argument they should have gotten more for all of them. They didn't, that's the point. It's a trend, not just a one off.

    City of Champions

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I can't remember what show it was on, must've been ESPN, or more likely NFL Network, years ago. They showed the sit down between Kraft, BB and the FO when discussing the upcoming offseason where they had to choose between Seymour and Wilfork. It was a round table discussion. Everyone had input. BB lead the conversation, but did not steer anyone...He just gave the pro and cons to both players and some financial considerations. At the end of the conversation, all parties had agreed that re-signing Vince was priority number one and if that meant losing Seymour...they had to do it. Kraft wasn't keen on that reality, but he let BB do what he had to do to keep Vince.

    I imagine this conversation has been had in many many cases between Kraft, BB and co...And I imagine it happened with Jimmy as well.
    Incomplete post. Sure they talked about JG many times. Stuff like "How's the kid doing". I'm sure somewhere along the line the gushing praise BB bestowed on JG after the deal was expressed. Perhaps BK and son kept quiet but decided amongst themselves that they could not move on from TB minus a huge injury or retirement.

    So there is BB loading the roster for a run in '17, send off TB with another title, get serious grooming the kid.

    Then wham-o, the owner too chikenshite to face BB with the decision earlier got more influenced by TB impassioned pleas to play to 45 and BTW what's this kid still doing here? If we franchise him it'll wreck the '18 team.

    So instead of keeping communications open, they made a choice and gave it to BB in one lump, so it was clear to him his efforts for some time had been in vain. OK Boss. Then he makes his own unilateral choice. TB guru out the door.

    BB is too proud and too desirous of an all time reputation, so he won't soil his set-up here. But he may keep stacking the team one year at a time hoping he can get 3 more years out of the old QB, with WTH two more titles. Try and groom the kid he drafts, but when age, his young wife, and a bleak outlook start to be what he sees ahead, he's going to retire. His reputation with fans and record books safe. How BK feels about him or what goes down later or at the end? That'll be private.

    Again explain after so many years around the club with legal issues, and dispensing advice/treatment to more than TB he gets the axe at this time? I don't believe in coincidences.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Macro conversations. Sure they have them often. Would never dispute that. I saw that interview BTW. You think that if BB put his foot down he wouldn't win the day w/ those two? Until this episode of course.

    New reporting today (national) that two days before JG was dealt the Browns asked if they could make an offer and were turned down. You really think BB is afraid enough of a Conference "rival" down on its luc k about to cough up more draft capital (say (my guess) a 1, 2, 3, 4 over a two year period) and accept a clearly inferiordeal to the NFC just so we'd play them less? I can see in the Division making a difference. But I cannot imagine no other NFC club beating that offer.
    Ok so they trade Jimmy to Cleveland. Cleveland is a dump of a team and a city. Jimmy rides out 8 games there....Walks away and can sign with any team he wants.... BUF, NYJ and MIA would be all over him this offseason.

    In SF...Jimmy has stability, a good coach and team with a boat load of money to build around him. Safe bet he stays. BB only has to play him 1 MAYBE 2 times the rest of his career.

    City of Champions

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Yes. Montana was dealt when he was widely regarded as the GOAT. But somehow your binky is above that.

    Not even remotely. Read over the posts again then try using on topic logic.
    I absolutely did. You tried bringing up previous years where he didnít have ďhelpĒ and Brady was better this year than all of them, even with a bad statistical end to the season.

    I didn't say only, I asked that they be considered which you A. failed to do then B. now make light of. Nice try.
    You can add those stats. Brady was still clearly the better QB. Keep trying to change the whole point of you being wrong though.

    You even took the stats the I put out of the post you quoted. Nothing short of pathetic.

    Since when do you only get to specify what matters in this case? You avoided commenting on the team scoring and you avoided talking about the offensive skill roster positions. You case as you define it might be made to yur satisfaction, but to the media and fans it was pretty much not TB that was talked about as MVP until the injury.

    It's easy to only crow about your own points but as you prove here you are unwilling to address other serious points made by another person. Is that how you get by in life - by only paying attention to what supports your points? How sad.
    Brady was better statistically. I proved that. If you want to look at Wentz having a higher cmp% in the fourth quarter of Sunday night games against a top 10 defense with the temp below 50 degrees, you can. Iíll stick to reality.

    Your cherry picked stats.
    I used all the stats that people look at for QBís. For a guy who claims to know history so well and have age on all of us, youíve never manned up. Even when youíre proven wrong with statistics, you stay stingy.

    If you think I'm here to look good to you, you are delusional. Again we see you only accept facts that make your points and refuse others.
    Iím using statistics. Iím sorry that you made a false claim and didnít realize that stats didnít back it.

    You kept saying their league rank should map to the EC rank. You had them as high as #2 at times. I never had them higher than #6.

    You kept denying that they had a poor record against teams over .500 and the WC. Wrong.

    You kept arguing that IT was great and the C's could win a title with him as one of the Max players - I said no - DA agreed with me.

    I just said that they would lose to Toronto, and since they didn't play them, your claim is false.

    There are lots of good reasons why I am PSD's Celt page DA for 8 years running.



    Try and learn how to be more like Oakmont, at least there is some heft in the posts, he never comes across like a yippy 8 lb lap dog
    I never had them as the 2nd best team in the league. Holy **** I canít believe youíre trying to pull that.

    And no you had them losing to the Wizards. I believe the percentage you used was 65% to 35% or 60% to 40% of a loss.

    Lots of good reasons thatís your tag. Because we havenít voted in a while and you didnít take it out lmfao.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Why couldn't they get more for Chandler Jones? Jamie Collins? Mike Vrable? Matt Cassell? Randy Moss? I can easily make the argument they should have gotten more for all of them. They didn't, that's the point. It's a trend, not just a one off.
    We agree on draft value and cost control at QB, but that's not the point of this thread.

    With CJ, RM, JC it was addition by subtraction - guys who became uncoachable and a detriment to team culture. I don't see the comparisons to Jimmy whatsoever.

    If the plan was to keep Brady at QB, develop and trade Jimmy (they drafted JG only as an asset) doesn't the return seem anticlimactic? They've been cultivating this kid, knowing full well the scarcity at QB, for a pick within 10-15 spots where they initially drafted him? No way.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    You know nothing of BB if you think he'd pass up a nice extra bag full of picks because he's upset about some old feud that ended at about SB #2 since by then they realized he benched QB really was toast and BB was a master.
    Trump must have pulled the trigger on that trade...LOL! He's the GM in your Fractured Fairy Tale world.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Ok so they trade Jimmy to Cleveland. Cleveland is a dump of a team and a city. Jimmy rides out 8 games there....Walks away and can sign with any team he wants.... BUF, NYJ and MIA would be all over him this offseason.

    In SF...Jimmy has stability, a good coach and team with a boat load of money to build around him. Safe bet he stays. BB only has to play him 1 MAYBE 2 times the rest of his career.

    The Browns could have tagged JG indefinitely but the cost would soar if they had to keep doing it. Cousins will be on his third tag if the Skins use it again.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    We agree on draft value and cost control at QB, but that's not the point of this thread.

    With CJ, RM, JC it was addition by subtraction - guys who became uncoachable and a detriment to team culture. I don't see the comparisons to Jimmy whatsoever.

    If the plan was to keep Brady at QB, develop and trade Jimmy (they drafted JG only as an asset) doesn't the return seem anticlimactic? They've been cultivating this kid, knowing full well the scarcity at QB, for a pick within 10-15 spots where they initially drafted him? No way.
    I don't view it that way. He was drafted as an insurance policy to Brady...So when/if Brady fell off a cliff or broke down, they had a man ready to go who could be a mainstay. Their insurance policy ran out. They cashed out. Lost zero value. They'll more than likely take that pick and draft another insurance policy and let it run its course for another 2 years.

    Additionally BB loves second round picks...And getting additional firsts or seconds from a team that's highly unstable and has an increased likelihood of not being able to re-sign Jimmy meant that BB couldn't control where he went. So after 8 games he could easily be out of CLE and a Free Agent in 2018. There's no chance Jimmy would want to stay in CLE. Jimmy being free to sign with BUF, NYJ or MIA isn't worth an extra first round pick.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 01-09-2018 at 05:44 PM.

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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    The Browns could have tagged JG indefinitely but the cost would soar if they had to keep doing it. Cousins will be on his third tag if the Skins use it again.
    Right but they'd be on the hook for $25 mil year 1. $30 mil year 2. $36 mil year 3....All with an unhappy QB who doesn't want to be there. Hardly ideal.

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  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Incomplete post. Sure they talked about JG many times. Stuff like "How's the kid doing". I'm sure somewhere along the line the gushing praise BB bestowed on JG after the deal was expressed. Perhaps BK and son kept quiet but decided amongst themselves that they could not move on from TB minus a huge injury or retirement.

    So there is BB loading the roster for a run in '17, send off TB with another title, get serious grooming the kid.

    Then wham-o, the owner too chikenshite to face BB with the decision earlier got more influenced by TB impassioned pleas to play to 45 and BTW what's this kid still doing here? If we franchise him it'll wreck the '18 team.

    So instead of keeping communications open, they made a choice and gave it to BB in one lump, so it was clear to him his efforts for some time had been in vain. OK Boss. Then he makes his own unilateral choice. TB guru out the door.

    BB is too proud and too desirous of an all time reputation, so he won't soil his set-up here. But he may keep stacking the team one year at a time hoping he can get 3 more years out of the old QB, with WTH two more titles. Try and groom the kid he drafts, but when age, his young wife, and a bleak outlook start to be what he sees ahead, he's going to retire. His reputation with fans and record books safe. How BK feels about him or what goes down later or at the end? That'll be private.

    Again explain after so many years around the club with legal issues, and dispensing advice/treatment to more than TB he gets the axe at this time? I don't believe in coincidences.
    This is absolutely what I want and expect to happen. Have for the past couple of years now. So no issues with that here. Kind of thought this was generally accepted knowledge at this point. BB aint gonna be here forever.

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  15. #150
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    More just for reference but here's the biggest QB trades in the last 20 years

    Comparable QB trades past 20 years

    Jimmy Garoppolo - 2017 - NE to SF
    Original pick: #62
    Age: 26
    AVG Career stats: 4368 24TD 10 INT (Projected for 16 games)
    Compensation: 2nd round pick

    Sam Bradford Ė 2016 Ė PHI to MIN
    Original pick: #1
    Age: 28
    AVG Career stats: 3700 Yards 19.5 TD 13INT
    Compensation: 1st and 4th round pick

    Carson Palmer Ė 2013 Ė CIN to OAK
    Original pick: #1
    Age: 31
    AVG Career stats: 3782 Yards 25.7 TD 16.6 INT
    Compensation: 1st and 2nd round pick

    Jay Cutler - 2008 - DEN to CHI
    Original pick: #11
    Age: 25
    AVG Career stats: 3610 Yards 21.6 TD 14.8 INT
    Compensation: Kyle Orton, 2 1st rounderís, 3rd rounder

    Drew Bledsoe Ė 2002 Ė NE to DAL
    Original pick: #1
    Age: 29
    AVG Career stats: 3707 Yards 17.3 TD 17.3 INT
    Compensation: 1st round pick

    Trent Green Ė 1999 Ė STL to KAN
    Original pick: #26
    Age: 28
    AVG Career stats: 3441 Yards 23 TD 11 INT
    Compensation: 1st round pick

    Brad Johnson Ė 1999 Ė MIN to WAS
    Original pick: #227
    Age: 30
    AVG Career stats: 3271 Yards 17.6 TD 10.8 INT
    Compensation: 1st, 2nd, 3rd round pick

    A couple trades here stand out to me. Brad Johnson, Jay Cutler and Sam Bradford were the worst trades on this list and maybe in history. Complete overpays here.

    The average compensation here should be a 1st round pick for a veteran starting QB around 30 years of age (give or take a year or two).

    The biggest difference here is the QB's on this list all had a good body of work to base the trade off of. Essentially the teams knew what they were paying for. With Jimmy G the same can't be said. Now he was younger than most on this list but he had basically no body of work to go with, just all upside.

    All in all the compensation may be light comparatively to history, but not as light as many on this board make it out to be. Based on history and not stupid teams making stupid trades, a 1st round pick (maybe a 3/4/5 pick added in) is about fair compensation for a starting caliber QB. We got a second rounder. I don't think this was as big a give away as people make it out to be...Based on history. Also Jimmy's contract status needs to be taken into account. All the QB's on this list were under contract at the time of trade, whereas Jimmy is playing out his last year...That counts for something.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 01-09-2018 at 07:02 PM.

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