Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 170
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    29,761
    Quote Originally Posted by WaDe03 View Post
    Chalmers
    LeBron
    Magic
    Oscar
    Paul
    Zeke
    Stockton
    Nash
    Kidd
    Westbrook
    I realize that Chalmers and Lebron are a joke, but an interesting argument could be made for Westbrook in the top 10. I'd love to see someone try to argue him over guys like Frazier and Payton.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    29,761
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Top 5 in terms of who is actually the best (i.e. if they were all at their peak and were in a draft who would I want on my team):

    1. Magic
    2. Curry
    3. Big O
    4. CP3

    After that I'd have guys like Stockton, Nash, Zeke, Kidd, Payton and Frazier on roughly the same plane (i.e. I would take one of them over the other depending on the rest of the team's construction).

    I would also have to give strong consideration to Penny, Arenas and Rose just after them (or maybe even ahead of some depending on circumstances).
    Penny, Arenas and Rose? I'd love to see you make a case for one of those guys as a better basketball player than Walt Frazier. Westbrook, I could see a decent case for in the top 10, but not any of those guys. I do really like your idea of discussing a top 25 list of "who would you rather have at his peak?" And if that was your criteria for this list, Curry certainly would make a strong case for No. 2 and might even have a decent case for No. 1.

    In an all-time list right now, though, Curry's still 4th or 5th for me among point guards somewhere in that top 20-30 range of all players all-time.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I realize that Chalmers and Lebron are a joke, but an interesting argument could be made for Westbrook in the top 10. I'd love to see someone try to argue him over guys like Frazier and Payton.
    I think Westbrook is where we will really see a fight back against using stats and comparing different era's. Which is somewhat fair btw not saying it isn't, things have clearly changed. I have already pointed out how compared to a guy like even Durant from this era compares to Westbrook and how he has some strong arguments to be at least somewhat close.

    I actually kinda agree with your take on CP3 so this is not trying to discredit his numbers either. It is something that will need consideration though as we will see many players from today with better stats individually than other stars in the past.

    Cp3 v Westy v Stockton statistically over their careers:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    74,384
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    My list would look something like:

    1. Magic
    2. Oscar
    3. Paul
    4. Curry
    5. Stockton
    6. Zeke
    7. Nash
    8. Kidd
    9. Frazier
    10. Payton
    Drop Zeke 4 spots and this is mine

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    8,353
    Quote Originally Posted by WaDe03 View Post
    Chalmers
    LeBron
    Magic
    Oscar
    Paul
    Zeke
    Stockton
    Nash
    Kidd
    Westbrook
    Gotta put backup-Wade in that list somewhere
    The Baker is coming.


  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    24,474
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Penny, Arenas and Rose? I'd love to see you make a case for one of those guys as a better basketball player than Walt Frazier. Westbrook, I could see a decent case for in the top 10, but not any of those guys. I do really like your idea of discussing a top 25 list of "who would you rather have at his peak?" And if that was your criteria for this list, Curry certainly would make a strong case for No. 2 and might even have a decent case for No. 1.

    In an all-time list right now, though, Curry's still 4th or 5th for me among point guards somewhere in that top 20-30 range of all players all-time.
    Is it really so hard? We're talking about them at their peak when healthy, they were all pretty great basketball players.

    First, Frazier's career high in PER is 21.6, his career high in TS% is .576, his WS/48 high is .236, his BPM is 5.8 and his VORP is 6.3.

    Penny's 3rd year he had a PER of 24.6, a TS% of .605, a WS/48 of .229, a BPM of 6.4 and a VORP of 6.4.

    So in his one truly healthy season at his best his advanced stats are every bit comparable to Frazier's. Additionally, Penny was an All-NBA 1st team player that year (and 95) and finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of his teammate Shaq (though to be fair, Shaq was hurt that year) and behind only MJ and D-Rob. His talent was considered among the peak players in the game at a time when the NBA was heavily loaded with peak players. Despite Shaq missing nearly 30 games the Magic still won 60 games.

    The same things apply to Derrick Rose. His MVP year he had stats of:

    23.5 PER, .550 TS%, .208 WS/48, 5.9 BPM and 6.0 VORP. Comparable to Walt Frazier. Although he was considered in actuality a step below LeBron even though he won MVP, he was still considered among the games best players, certainly he was considered the best young player in the league at the time.


    And that's my point and the problem with a Top 25 based on actual talent, it will be really hard for people to overcome the ingrained accolade rankings we are all accustomed to.

    It is difficult for people to acknowledge guys who wouldn't sniff a spot in the Top 30-50 all things considered to suddenly be vaulted that high because of a few good years, even if in the case of Penny and D-Rose there were extenuating circumstances (injuries) for why they didn't stockpile accolades.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    29,761
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think Westbrook is where we will really see a fight back against using stats and comparing different era's. Which is somewhat fair btw not saying it isn't, things have clearly changed. I have already pointed out how compared to a guy like even Durant from this era compares to Westbrook and how he has some strong arguments to be at least somewhat close.

    I actually kinda agree with your take on CP3 so this is not trying to discredit his numbers either. It is something that will need consideration though as we will see many players from today with better stats individually than other stars in the past.

    Cp3 v Westy v Stockton statistically over their careers:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players
    Yeah, but at least most guys in the top 10 of any PG discussion played in the 90s-2000s, so they're fairly easy to compare. The rules haven't changed so drastically in the last 20 years that we have to put an asterisk by anyone's name. And the only guys who played in the 70s and 80s on the list (Magic and Frazier) posted such strong advanced numbers that we don't have to completely throw out efficiency and advanced stats when comparing them.

    Now if you want to start talking about Cousy and throw him in the mix, then things get really tough...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Drop Zeke 4 spots and this is mine
    Zeke is such a hard guy to judge. How much do we take his postseason resume, base statistics and defense into account when measuring them against his mediocre efficiency and advanced numbers? I bounce him around so much that I honestly don't know if I have him at 6 or at 10, and that could vary on any given day. My top 5 guys are pretty much locks, but that 6-10 range is so hard to judge, that I can't honestly say that I disagree with any order of those five guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    29,761
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Is it really so hard? We're talking about them at their peak when healthy, they were all pretty great basketball players.

    First, Frazier's career high in PER is 21.6, his career high in TS% is .576, his WS/48 high is .236, his BPM is 5.8 and his VORP is 6.3.

    Penny's 3rd year he had a PER of 24.6, a TS% of .605, a WS/48 of .229, a BPM of 6.4 and a VORP of 6.4.

    So in his one truly healthy season at his best his advanced stats are every bit comparable to Frazier's. Additionally, Penny was an All-NBA 1st team player that year (and 95) and finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of his teammate Shaq (though to be fair, Shaq was hurt that year) and behind only MJ and D-Rob. His talent was considered among the peak players in the game at a time when the NBA was heavily loaded with peak players. Despite Shaq missing nearly 30 games the Magic still won 60 games.

    The same things apply to Derrick Rose. His MVP year he had stats of:

    23.5 PER, .550 TS%, .208 WS/48, 5.9 BPM and 6.0 VORP. Comparable to Walt Frazier. Although he was considered in actuality a step below LeBron even though he won MVP, he was still considered among the games best players, certainly he was considered the best young player in the league at the time.
    Oh, I see, you're going solely off peak production. While, I get that, I don't know how you can have the "Top 25 based on talent" without any discussion regarding postseason performance, which is where Frazier earns his ranking on this list. That was my biggest problem with the last All-Time Re-draft we did: by doing a 1-year peak, you're almost completely eliminating the impact of postseason performance.

    And that's my point and the problem with a Top 25 based on actual talent, it will be really hard for people to overcome the ingrained accolade rankings we are all accustomed to.

    It is difficult for people to acknowledge guys who wouldn't sniff a spot in the Top 30-50 all things considered to suddenly be vaulted that high because of a few good years, even if in the case of Penny and D-Rose there were extenuating circumstances (injuries) for why they didn't stockpile accolades.
    But are you talking about a one-year peak or overall peak? Because, again, I'm not a fan of the 1-year peak argument. In addition to diminishing the impact of the playoffs, it also won't account for a fluke season or the one-hit wonders. Tiny Archibald is the perfect example. If we're judging all-time point guards based on their best seasons, you could easily make a case for Tiny in the top 10 based on his ridiculous 72-73 season, which he never came close to replicating the rest of his career.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Swinging from Bruce Bochy's sack
    Posts
    48,377
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Other than him simply being the better and more impactful player?

    That's the problem with anyone who tries to do these things, they never specify if it's by accolades or ability.

    I am tempted to begin a Top 25 all-time list based purely on their actual ability and see how the results differ from an accolades based list.
    The goal here was based off of ability. That said, hard to separate them because accolades can be a proof of said ability. It depends on the "share" of the "win" they contributed. (see what I did there? )

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    24,474
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Oh, I see, you're going solely off peak production. While, I get that, I don't know how you can have the "Top 25 based on talent" without any discussion regarding postseason performance, which is where Frazier earns his ranking on this list. That was my biggest problem with the last All-Time Re-draft we did: by doing a 1-year peak, you're almost completely eliminating the impact of postseason performance.

    But are you talking about a one-year peak or overall peak? Because, again, I'm not a fan of the 1-year peak argument. In addition to diminishing the impact of the playoffs, it also won't account for a fluke season or the one-hit wonders. Tiny Archibald is the perfect example. If we're judging all-time point guards based on their best seasons, you could easily make a case for Tiny in the top 10 based on his ridiculous 72-73 season, which he never came close to replicating the rest of his career.
    First Bolded: Nor do I, which is why post-season performance should be evaluated in that, if you choose player X over player Y because you think they, at their peak, would perform better than player Y in the post-season, that is a completely reasonable argument to make.

    In regards specifically to the Penny vs Frazier debate, Penny performed very well that year in the playoffs for Orlando, nearly matching his regular season production. But you'd then have the subjective argument of whether you think Penny could consistently do that to the level of Frazier in this hypothetical.

    Second Bolded: I'm talking about them at their best. It's essentially the subjective question of "who would you take if all are at their best/in their peak in a draft based". You can use statistics and/or accolades to bolster your point (otherwise nobody can posit any true evidence other than the eye test). It doesn't necessarily have to be a 1 year peak, and you can certainly claim a specific year from a player is a generally non-duplicable fluke season (as in the case of Tiny).

    But in regards specifically to Penny, was it really a fluke season because he wasn't good enough to duplicate that performance? Remember, the reason he never did that good again wasn't because he started playing worse, it's because he got injured. Had he not gotten injured, I don't see a compelling reason to doubt him being as good as we saw in 96.

    In essence, it's all about context. A 1 hit wonder for a healthy guy in a 12 year career is easy to contextually know he couldn't duplicate that performance. But there were lots of really good players who simply got injured, but based on their ability, are on par with the upper levels of the league all-time.

    Guys like Penny, D-Rose, Walton, Hill, etc.

    Then there are guys who were extremely good but didn't get the requisite team success to reflect their actual peak level. Guys like T-Mac, CP3, etc.

    T-Mac is actually an example of both our points. Not only does his ability far exceed his ranking on most lists, but he also has an outlier year.

    In 2003 he shot 38.6% from 3 and had a TS% of .564 and nowhere in his peak did he come close to those numbers again, so we can surmise that was an anomaly and not indicative of how good he would be at his best more often than not. But even without that one year, his play from 2001 to 2005 still demonstrates he's insanely good and would certainly be drafted higher if picking to play a game of everyone at their peak compared to where he falls on all-time rankings.
    Last edited by valade16; 01-04-2018 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    24,474
    Also, I would like to give a shout-out to Tiny Archibald for a moment, as people seem to think his 1973 season was some vast outlier compared to the rest of his seasons and he never came close to that level of production.

    In 1973 he led the league in PPG and APG averaging 34.0 and 11.4 in 46.0 MPG. But the year before, in 1972, he averaged 28.2 PPG and 9.2 APG in 43 MPG. He was second that year in PPG and 3rd in APG. He also had years where he averaged 26 and 25 PPG as well.

    In terms of scoring and passing, he was very much near that level (if not quite as good as that year indicates, certainly close), and would certainly merit a higher ranking on a peak performance list than where he is listed here on PSD.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Swinging from Bruce Bochy's sack
    Posts
    48,377
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think Westbrook is where we will really see a fight back against using stats and comparing different era's. Which is somewhat fair btw not saying it isn't, things have clearly changed. I have already pointed out how compared to a guy like even Durant from this era compares to Westbrook and how he has some strong arguments to be at least somewhat close.

    I actually kinda agree with your take on CP3 so this is not trying to discredit his numbers either. It is something that will need consideration though as we will see many players from today with better stats individually than other stars in the past.

    Cp3 v Westy v Stockton statistically over their careers:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players
    That's because of how the game has evolved, from a professional standpoint. That context is important and cannot be ignored. Similarly to how in the NFL, guys who can't walk a step in Montana's shoes will dwarf his passing yards, among other things.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Swinging from Bruce Bochy's sack
    Posts
    48,377
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Is it really so hard? We're talking about them at their peak when healthy, they were all pretty great basketball players.

    First, Frazier's career high in PER is 21.6, his career high in TS% is .576, his WS/48 high is .236, his BPM is 5.8 and his VORP is 6.3.

    Penny's 3rd year he had a PER of 24.6, a TS% of .605, a WS/48 of .229, a BPM of 6.4 and a VORP of 6.4.

    So in his one truly healthy season at his best his advanced stats are every bit comparable to Frazier's. Additionally, Penny was an All-NBA 1st team player that year (and 95) and finished 3rd in MVP voting ahead of his teammate Shaq (though to be fair, Shaq was hurt that year) and behind only MJ and D-Rob. His talent was considered among the peak players in the game at a time when the NBA was heavily loaded with peak players. Despite Shaq missing nearly 30 games the Magic still won 60 games.

    The same things apply to Derrick Rose. His MVP year he had stats of:

    23.5 PER, .550 TS%, .208 WS/48, 5.9 BPM and 6.0 VORP. Comparable to Walt Frazier. Although he was considered in actuality a step below LeBron even though he won MVP, he was still considered among the games best players, certainly he was considered the best young player in the league at the time.


    And that's my point and the problem with a Top 25 based on actual talent, it will be really hard for people to overcome the ingrained accolade rankings we are all accustomed to.

    It is difficult for people to acknowledge guys who wouldn't sniff a spot in the Top 30-50 all things considered to suddenly be vaulted that high because of a few good years, even if in the case of Penny and D-Rose there were extenuating circumstances (injuries) for why they didn't stockpile accolades.
    I agree with regards to Penny, and your main point, but there has to be balance, with regards to your last statement. One elite season out of 6 or more for example, you can't responsibly move someone up too far. You would have to maintain that level of play, or close to it, I don't know, 40% of the career body of work? I'm not set in stone on 40% i'm just using it as an example.

    Also you can't just assume Penny maintains a high level of play if he doesn't get injured. And we don't reward players for production they only achieved hypothetically. If that's the case let's move Rose up to 3 because we can say he kept that MVP level of play throughout he career.
    Last edited by lol, please; 01-04-2018 at 07:39 PM.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    29,761
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Also, I would like to give a shout-out to Tiny Archibald for a moment, as people seem to think his 1973 season was some vast outlier compared to the rest of his seasons and he never came close to that level of production.

    In 1973 he led the league in PPG and APG averaging 34.0 and 11.4 in 46.0 MPG. But the year before, in 1972, he averaged 28.2 PPG and 9.2 APG in 43 MPG. He was second that year in PPG and 3rd in APG. He also had years where he averaged 26 and 25 PPG as well.

    In terms of scoring and passing, he was very much near that level (if not quite as good as that year indicates, certainly close), and would certainly merit a higher ranking on a peak performance list than where he is listed here on PSD.
    Tiny also played a ridiculous amount of minutes in that 73 season, averaging 46 minutes a game, or the 8th most of any season of any player in the history of the NBA (the top 7 are all Wilt). So that sort of inflates those numbers in 73 a bit. But if you look at his per 36 numbers that season (27 and 9), they're not that much more impressive than his per 36 numbers in 72 (24 and 8) or 75 (24 and 6).

    What's crazy to me is that Tiny didn't make the All-Star game in 1972 despite averaging 28/9/3. How in the hell did that happen? What were the criteria for making the All-Star team back then? Or maybe he just started super slow and didn't come on strong until after the All-Star break?

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    24,474
    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    I agree with regards to Penny, and your main point, but there has to be balance, with regards to your last statement. One elite season out of 6 or more for example, you can't responsibly move someone up too far. You would have to maintain that level of play, or close to it, I don't know, 40% of the career body of work? I'm not set in stone on 40% i'm just using it as an example.

    Also you can't just assume Penny maintains a high level of play if he doesn't get injured. And we don't reward players for production they only achieved hypothetically. If that's the case let's move Rose up to 3 because we can say he kept that MVP level of play throughout he career.
    Well it's about context, is the reason they couldn't sustain that level of play because they had some unsustainable event (like T-Mac's 38.6 3pt%), or was it because of injuries?

    I am not trying to reward Penny with hypothetical production, I'm saying if I had to take a guaranteed healthy, at his peak Penny for a game, or a series, or a season, what would I care that he got hurt and his career was over. I'm taking him because of how good he was at his best. I have no reason to think Penny wouldn't do what he did at his best in the NBA for my team if I chose him. The skills are all there.

    As for Rose, if you got MVP level Rose to play in your pickup game on your team, would you give a rat's *** if someone said "I'm taking Mark Jackson because he's 4th all-time in assists!"? No, you wouldn't care that Mark Jackson played far longer than D-Rose or compiled way more assists, because in that game, you'd know that D-Rose is about to whoop Mark Jackson's ***.

Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •