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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    I think my biggest issue with splitting up Couts and G, other than their current productions, is I believe Patrick is a more talented version of Couts. I've just finished watching this movie. Playing Couts with guys like max Talbot and downie and expecting production.

    I think the highest ceiling this team has, for this season is to get Patrick producing. I believe playing him with a guy like Jake is crucial to getting him going. In that scenario I don't have jake to move up with Couts to help the top line. So I prefer to leave G up there. The top two lines in the following lineup are very similar IMO

    28-14-11
    40-19-93
    Lindblom-51/21-17
    12-21/51-15/20/22

    This is 100% an attempt to get Patrick to fix the middle six problem. If he can, the teams top 9 looks pretty Damn good.
    More talented version of Couturier? Just no.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    More talented version of Couturier? Just no.
    Patrick is a stud. Call it different than Couturier but he is awesome

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    I agree with this... I'm keeping Voracek and Giroux. Two of the top five scorers in the league, both with durable, projectable skillets.

    Simmonds I'm listening. If we can get two A- quality younger assets for him (Connor & Trouba), I'm all for it. But if we are trading arguably the best power forward info the league, we should be getting a Duchene-level return. That's the expectation. Simmonds is cheaper, scores more goals and brings the "intangibles" and "leadership" that Duchene lacked.

    Let's not forget that Ghost has top pairing talent, too. He's not the magic eraser that is Provorov, but he's quickly developing into a Karlsson-lite.
    Simmonds is in a complicated stage to really get a huge haul isn't he? He's got 1 year remaining on a contract and he's gonna be 30. The only way that works out to get a big return is that the team he gets traded to locks him in to a long term deal. That kinda limits the leverage a little doesn't it? No one is unloading the prospect truck for a one year rental. At his age the number of teams willing to lock him into a long term high dollar deal would be a lot less than if he was 26 or 27. So I don't necessarily see a trade as a homer for us here.

  4. #154
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    You won't get Duchene level back for Simmonds. Duchene has the age and positional advantage. Simmonds is an older winger who doesn't offer the versatility that Duchene or the relative upside. Duchene comes with the more significant trade value. He was also traded with essentially the full year of control plus next. Simply put, you can't expect the same return.

    But I do think the Flyers need to deal him. I'm simply uninterested in resigning a 31 year old power forward next-summer to the contract he'll require. So then you have to ask yourself: does Wayne Simmonds being here the next 1.5 years offset the addition of the gain of prospects/picks, and I would say: no it does not. I do not see the Flyers as a Cup team next year. They're not one now. So what's the general loss? A few wins? The picks/prospects could be used to add to what we have to either continue to build the farm, or perhaps to swing a deal for a mid-20's forward we need in a year or two that we don't have in the system.

    I love Wayne Simmonds. He's been a thoroughly good dude on a sweetheart contract, who's played his *** off and been one of the best power forwards in the game. With that said, I do think the Flyers benefit more as a franchise for dealing him this deadline than they do keeping him the next year and change and letting him walk, or even, resigning him. They have big money tied to Giroux and Voracek into their 30's. Don't add a 3rd. You buy future production in a contract, and you don't pay for past success. I fear very much a Wayne Simmonds contract is going to hurt in 2-3 years of a deal that will likely run 5-7 seasons. You'll very much be doing the opposite: paying for the past while not getting a lot of productive seasons remaining.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 01-09-2018 at 11:57 PM.
    We're From Philadelphia


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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    personally, i'm ready to make hard decisions.

    hagg, ghost and provorov are keepers. that means sanheim or myers are tradeable for a top pair defenseman or the right forward.
    i love simmonds, but if we can get the right package (maybe a #1 and timo meier from SJS), i'm taking it.
    i love voracek, but if we can get two #1s, a top prospect (maybe glass from VGK or tippett from FLA) and other miscellaneous goodies, i'm taking that, too.


    get younger, cheaper and faster on the wings.
    clear bad contracts.
    get an experienced defenseman to lead our young D corps and kill penalties.
    get a two-way center who can carry 2 rookie linemates and kill penalties.
    If you talk about getting a more legitimate defender back there we need to be talking about having a scenario where that guy replaces MacDonald or Gudas. Not at the expense of Sanheim and Meyers. Don't see us at all trading away Sanheim. We need to be figuring out how to get him back in there.

  6. #156
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    Philippe Myers ... it is not Meyers

  7. #157
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    They have big money tied to Giroux and Voracek into their 30's. Don't add a 3rd.
    3 is too many, but 2 is also too many. keep giroux and trade the other two.
    If you talk about getting a more legitimate defender back there we need to be talking about having a scenario where that guy replaces MacDonald or Gudas. Not at the expense of Sanheim and Meyers. Don't see us at all trading away Sanheim. We need to be figuring out how to get him back in there.
    macdonald would be replaced, too. i want next year's D corps to look something like this:

    provorov - carlson
    ghost - hagg
    gudas - myers

    that group balances defensive prowess, offensive firepower, experience, mobility and physicality in a way that would allow us to defend against any opponent, regardless of style, size, speed or talent.

    i love sanheim, but development goals have to be prioritized and my priority is developing povorov. i think the best way to do that is to pair him with a veteran who does everything we want him to do. carlson plays 25+ MPG and he's on pace for 60 points this season. provorov also plays 25 MPG with a 40 point pace and ghost plays another 21 MPG at a 60 point pace.

    if we put those players together, at least 3 things become clear:

    1: they're as good as any top 3 in the league.
    2: developing myers and sanheim, while important, is no longer necessary to win a cup
    3: successfully developing both myers and sanheim is not possible, so the best course of action is to prioritize the development of one of them, with the other becoming trade bait.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    You won't get Duchene level back for Simmonds. Duchene has the age and positional advantage. Simmonds is an older winger who doesn't offer the versatility that Duchene or the relative upside. Duchene comes with the more significant trade value. He was also traded with essentially the full year of control plus next. Simply put, you can't expect the same return.

    But I do think the Flyers need to deal him. I'm simply uninterested in resigning a 31 year old power forward next-summer to the contract he'll require. So then you have to ask yourself: does Wayne Simmonds being here the next 1.5 years offset the addition of the gain of prospects/picks, and I would say: no it does not. I do not see the Flyers as a Cup team next year. They're not one now. So what's the general loss? A few wins? The picks/prospects could be used to add to what we have to either continue to build the farm, or perhaps to swing a deal for a mid-20's forward we need in a year or two that we don't have in the system.

    I love Wayne Simmonds. He's been a thoroughly good dude on a sweetheart contract, who's played his *** off and been one of the best power forwards in the game. With that said, I do think the Flyers benefit more as a franchise for dealing him this deadline than they do keeping him the next year and change and letting him walk, or even, resigning him. They have big money tied to Giroux and Voracek into their 30's. Don't add a 3rd. You buy future production in a contract, and you don't pay for past success. I fear very much a Wayne Simmonds contract is going to hurt in 2-3 years of a deal that will likely run 5-7 seasons. You'll very much be doing the opposite: paying for the past while not getting a lot of productive seasons remaining.
    We could trade him before the draft but teams do tend to overpay at deadlines.

    I love simmonds and would hate to see him go but I think its the best option. I would definitely want a nhl ready player/or a player already in the nhl thats young.

    I see these teams as the ones that would love to add him at the deadline:

    anaheim. hed be a great fit with getzlaf. Rackell can move to lw but they dont trade many of their young players. they have silfverberg, steel, jones, terry, mahura,

    Calgary seems like a great fit with monahan/gaudreau. They have some pieces in dube, fox, valimaki, andersson
    edmonton

    kings-hed help them really become contenders again (like the richie and carts trade, add to whats working). Clauge, vilardi

    sens-white brown, formenten

    blues- kyrou, kostin, thomas, thompson, fabbri, dunn, barbashev

    wild-ek, greenway, kunin, coyle, nino n.

    edmonton-puljujarvi, yamamoto, bear, jones


    any1 in the metro is a no go. Doubt the yotes, sabres, avs, hawks (Can't afford him), wings, mtl, preds, stars, jets, sharks, knights would want him as most are rebuilding or have a logjam at rw. Toronto won't give up marner or nylander. Might be missing some teams but doing this on the fly. Teams like detroit, panthers, knights, stars maybe, sharks will probably ask for him in summer. I would go for puljujarvi, ek/greenway/kunin/coyle/nino, or kyrou/fabbri with some picks

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    More talented version of Couturier? Just no.
    I missed a few things in that comment. But the premise is sound.

    Patrick has more raw talent as a prospect than couturier. There's also a lot of similarities in the skill set. Both were highly regarded as defensive studs, high iq players. Both knocked for skating (Patrick's is a better skater than 19 year old Couts). Patrick also has a better wrist shot imo. And of course Couts has proven to be one of the smartest hockey players in the league.

    I'm couts second year he had 15 pts in 46 games. Patrick has 8 pts in 30. Coming off major surgery with a concussion in the middle of those games. Guy still has bonafide 1C potential.

    And I stick to my point, he has more raw talent/skills than Couts had at that age. The only part he's lacking in is specifically IQ, which he's still above average in the NHL imo.


    Remember, I've been the biggest Couts supporter on this forum his entire career.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    3 is too many, but 2 is also too many. keep giroux and trade the other two.
    macdonald would be replaced, too. i want next year's D corps to look something like this:

    provorov - carlson
    ghost - hagg
    gudas - myers

    that group balances defensive prowess, offensive firepower, experience, mobility and physicality in a way that would allow us to defend against any opponent, regardless of style, size, speed or talent.

    i love sanheim, but development goals have to be prioritized and my priority is developing povorov. i think the best way to do that is to pair him with a veteran who does everything we want him to do. carlson plays 25+ MPG and he's on pace for 60 points this season. provorov also plays 25 MPG with a 40 point pace and ghost plays another 21 MPG at a 60 point pace.

    if we put those players together, at least 3 things become clear:

    1: they're as good as any top 3 in the league.
    2: developing myers and sanheim, while important, is no longer necessary to win a cup
    3: successfully developing both myers and sanheim is not possible, so the best course of action is to prioritize the development of one of them, with the other becoming trade bait.

    1. Carlson is 28, 29 by the time this happens. I'm not locking in cap and term to a 29 year old when I have 4 or more guys with ceilings higher than his.

    2. You'd have to switch hagg and gudas to make these pairings work. No reason to not have balanced handiness when you can.

    3. Why can't sanheim an Myers both be developed properly? Isn't that why sanheim is here this season? To get his feet wet? 60 games or so should be expected this, season.

    Provy-ghost
    Sanheim-gudas
    Hagg-Myers

    Or

    Provy-gudas
    Ghost-hagg
    Sanheim-myers

    Or

    Provy-myers
    Ghost-gudas
    Hagg-sanheim

    All of these are preferable when compared to what you have IMO. Specifically because this team needs to stay out of cap trouble and continue to identify who is what in the prospect pools


    I'm also not hitching my wagon to Myers and his injuries over sanheim. If I'm trading 1, it's the one with more risk. But I'm not trading any potential top pair kids before they play 80 games.


    Patience with these kids can net the Seth Jones for Ryan Johansson trade. Or Larson for hall. No way I'm selling one early. Not unless I get that young, bona fide top 6 forward in return.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    I missed a few things in that comment. But the premise is sound.

    Patrick has more raw talent as a prospect than couturier. There's also a lot of similarities in the skill set. Both were highly regarded as defensive studs, high iq players. Both knocked for skating (Patrick's is a better skater than 19 year old Couts). Patrick also has a better wrist shot imo. And of course Couts has proven to be one of the smartest hockey players in the league.

    I'm couts second year he had 15 pts in 46 games. Patrick has 8 pts in 30. Coming off major surgery with a concussion in the middle of those games. Guy still has bonafide 1C potential.

    And I stick to my point, he has more raw talent/skills than Couts had at that age. The only part he's lacking in is specifically IQ, which he's still above average in the NHL imo.


    Remember, I've been the biggest Couts supporter on this forum his entire career.
    i think the raw talent/skill part might be right, but Couts was GREAT defensively from the beginning. He was put in difficult matchups and on the pk throughout his first year and in the playoffs. Patrick won't be as good as couts in that department but if he is half then its more than enough. I think we have ourselves a krejci-bergeron tandem going forward. Hopefully patrick ain't as injured as krejci and i think he can be a better scorer than krejci. We'll see.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    1. Carlson is 28, 29 by the time this happens. I'm not locking in cap and term to a 29 year old when I have 4 or more guys with ceilings higher than his.

    2. You'd have to switch hagg and gudas to make these pairings work. No reason to not have balanced handiness when you can.

    3. Why can't sanheim an Myers both be developed properly? Isn't that why sanheim is here this season? To get his feet wet? 60 games or so should be expected this, season.

    Provy-ghost
    Sanheim-gudas
    Hagg-Myers

    Or

    Provy-gudas
    Ghost-hagg
    Sanheim-myers

    Or

    Provy-myers
    Ghost-gudas
    Hagg-sanheim

    All of these are preferable when compared to what you have IMO. Specifically because this team needs to stay out of cap trouble and continue to identify who is what in the prospect pools


    I'm also not hitching my wagon to Myers and his injuries over sanheim. If I'm trading 1, it's the one with more risk. But I'm not trading any potential top pair kids before they play 80 games.


    Patience with these kids can net the Seth Jones for Ryan Johansson trade. Or Larson for hall. No way I'm selling one early. Not unless I get that young, bona fide top 6 forward in return.
    Myers has played more games than Morin this year, oddly enough. He has also looked like a stud in those 20 games he played. Injuries are a major risk, like Patrick, but we have to insert him into the lineup and try (Myers), he is too talented to not try.

  13. #163
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    1. Carlson is 28, 29 by the time this happens. I'm not locking in cap and term to a 29 year old when I have 4 or more guys with ceilings higher than his.

    2. You'd have to switch hagg and gudas to make these pairings work. No reason to not have balanced handiness when you can.
    1: the game is faster now, but defensemen are still productive into their mid-30s.

    the ceilings for sanheim and myers are what carlson already is. #1D, 24 MPG, PP, PK, 55 points in a good year, 45 in an average one. but there's no guarantee that either of them reach it.

    carlson versus sanheim is literally a bird in the hand versus one in the bush.

    2: sure, go for it.
    3. Why can't sanheim an Myers both be developed properly? Isn't that why sanheim is here this season? To get his feet wet? 60 games or so should be expected this, season.
    do you notice how easily sam morin falls out of this conversation? that's what it looks like when developing one prospect is prioritized over developing another.

    in a scenario where we have carlson, provorov and ghost (i think that's what this question was responding to), trying to develop both myers and sanheim would leave them each playing 16 MPG. for one of them to become a top 2/top 4 defenseman, the other would have to fall back.
    All of these are preferable when compared to what you have IMO. Specifically because this team needs to stay out of cap trouble and continue to identify who is what in the prospect pools
    that's what i'm doing. i'm acknowledging the answers we've already found.
    provorov: stud
    ghost: stud
    hagg: role player
    sanheim: lottery ticket
    myers: lottery ticket
    morin: NHL ready, imo

    beyond that, we're not barren. alt is probably leaving this summer and friedman looks like minor league filler, so we'll need to reload at the AHL level in the near future. luckily, bernhardt, hogberg and kalynuk are all somewhat interesting, and we should be able to draft a handful of defense prospects this summer.

    the farm system doesn't have to end just because we start trying to win. tampa has a great farm system and they haven't had a top 10 pick in the last 5 years.


    as for the cap, the moves we make at forward and on defense are connected. i want to sign carlson and i want to get younger at forward. those things work hand in hand.
    Last edited by steagles; 01-10-2018 at 02:35 PM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    I think my biggest issue with splitting up Couts and G, other than their current productions, is I believe Patrick is a more talented version of Couts. I've just finished watching this movie. Playing Couts with guys like max Talbot and downie and expecting production.

    I think the highest ceiling this team has, for this season is to get Patrick producing. I believe playing him with a guy like Jake is crucial to getting him going. In that scenario I don't have jake to move up with Couts to help the top line. So I prefer to leave G up there. The top two lines in the following lineup are very similar IMO

    28-14-11
    40-19-93
    Lindblom-51/21-17
    12-21/51-15/20/22

    This is 100% an attempt to get Patrick to fix the middle six problem. If he can, the teams top 9 looks pretty Damn good.
    This is 100% what I have been hoping for. I think Hak tried those top two lines for less than a game before abandoning it. I want Patrick on that second line for at least 7-10 games before assessing.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    1: the game is faster now, but defensemen are still productive into their mid-30s.

    the ceilings for sanheim and myers are what carlson already is. #1D, 24 MPG, PP, PK, 55 points in a good year, 45 in an average one. but there's no guarantee that either of them reach it.

    carlson versus sanheim is literally a bird in the hand versus one in the bush.

    2: sure, go for it.

    do you notice how easily sam morin falls out of this conversation? that's what it looks like when developing one prospect is prioritized over developing another.

    in a scenario where we have carlson, provorov and ghost (i think that's what this question was responding to), trying to develop both myers and sanheim would leave them each playing 16 MPG. for one of them to become a top 2/top 4 defenseman, the other would have to fall back.

    that's what i'm doing. i'm acknowledging the answers we've already found.
    provorov: stud
    ghost: stud
    hagg: role player
    sanheim: lottery ticket
    myers: lottery ticket
    morin: NHL ready, imo

    beyond that, we're not barren. alt is probably leaving this summer and friedman looks like minor league filler, so we'll need to reload at the AHL level in the near future. luckily, bernhardt, hogberg and kalynuk are all somewhat interesting, and we should be able to draft a handful of defense prospects this summer.

    the farm system doesn't have to end just because we start trying to win. tampa has a great farm system and they haven't had a top 10 pick in the last 5 years.


    as for the cap, the moves we make at forward and on defense are connected. i want to sign carlson and i want to get younger at forward. those things work hand in hand.
    sam morin fell out of the convo because he is not good at hockey (maybe yet ... but i think he is just not good at hockey) ... he was a bad draft pick

    also, morin is not ready for the NHL ... his numbers in the AHL are not good either
    Last edited by castan_b; 01-10-2018 at 02:39 PM.

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