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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    I tend to think that a lot of people just side with whatever narrative is thrown at them first and run with it rather than doing their own research. Everyone has a hot take nowadays.

    I didn't know much about Lauri either, but wasn't going to immediately dismiss him because Jalen Rose said he was Channing Frye.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
    I always give it the benefit of the doubt early on. I was pissed about trading 2 good picks for Doug, but I said, "you know what, we do need a shooter, and his offense was solid in college". It didn't take too long to know it was a mistake though. Same thing with Lauri. I was skeptical that we took him over Smith Jr., but as soon as I saw him in Euro Basket, I knew that he had high upside.

    One move I never had faith in from start to finish was passing on Aldridge for Tyrus ****ing Thomas. Aldridge looked like a sure fire NBA player. You don't pass on a guy like that for a guy with high upside but is raw.

    That's why I'd be ok drafting 8th, but no later. I wouldn't mind teams taking risks on guys like Doncic, JJJ, Trae, Bagley, Bamba, and even Porter, although if he is who people say he could be, he'd be just what we need at the 3. Ayton is the only guy I see as a sure fire 1st and even he has red flags. I would be ecstatic if we landed Wendell Carter at 8 though. Seems like a safe pick that fits perfect.

  2. #782
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    Here we go again with the Tyrus talk. Cmon guys I just ate dinner! Ahhh!! Hahaha

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    I always give it the benefit of the doubt early on. I was pissed about trading 2 good picks for Doug, but I said, "you know what, we do need a shooter, and his offense was solid in college". It didn't take too long to know it was a mistake though. Same thing with Lauri. I was skeptical that we took him over Smith Jr., but as soon as I saw him in Euro Basket, I knew that he had high upside.

    One move I never had faith in from start to finish was passing on Aldridge for Tyrus ****ing Thomas. Aldridge looked like a sure fire NBA player. You don't pass on a guy like that for a guy with high upside but is raw.

    That's why I'd be ok drafting 8th, but no later. I wouldn't mind teams taking risks on guys like Doncic, JJJ, Trae, Bagley, Bamba, and even Porter, although if he is who people say he could be, he'd be just what we need at the 3. Ayton is the only guy I see as a sure fire 1st and even he has red flags. I would be ecstatic if we landed Wendell Carter at 8 though. Seems like a safe pick that fits perfect.
    I hated the Doug pick almost immediately, lol. Otherwise, yeah, agreed.

    I try to learn as much as I can about a pick (assuming I don't already know much about them) before passing judgement.

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  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    I tend to think that a lot of people just side with whatever narrative is thrown at them first and run with it rather than doing their own research. Everyone has a hot take nowadays.

    I didn't know much about Lauri either, but wasn't going to immediately dismiss him because Jalen Rose said he was Channing Frye.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
    I totally agree with you. Because there is SO much information on the internet, it's easy to find things that support what you're already inclined to believe than weigh out all the information and make a decision. If there's one thing I'll admit it's that I don't have a damn clue who is going to work out from this draft and who won't. But the one thing I want is a guy who is a hard worker and who is driven.

  5. #785
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  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    I tend to think that a lot of people just side with whatever narrative is thrown at them first and run with it rather than doing their own research. Everyone has a hot take nowadays.

    I didn't know much about Lauri either, but wasn't going to immediately dismiss him because Jalen Rose said he was Channing Frye.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
    Basically no fans wanted Lauri during draft season, regardless of the team. Iíll admit I am biased, but it was still annoying seeing the same tiresome arguments made about him. They were just lazy narratives.

    Now all Bulls fans love him. Itís funny how much of a 180 occurred when people actually saw him play.


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  7. #787
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    Bulls draft pick history the last 15 years (NOTE: I'm only gonna include the players the Bulls drafted or traded for the rights to draft ... I won't include anyone that never played for the Bulls). I'm using those qualifiers because it shows value lost/gained/used with their respective picks

    2017 - *Lauri Markannen (7th)
    2016 - Denzel Valentine (14th), **Paul Zipser (48th)
    2015 - Bobby Portis (22nd)
    2014 - *Doug McDermott (11th)
    2013 - Tony Snell (20th), Erik Murphy (49th)
    2012 - Marquis Teague (29th)
    2011 - *Nikola Mirotic (23rd), Jimmy Butler (30th)
    2010 - no picks
    2009 - James Johnson (16th), **Taj Gibson (26th)
    2008 - Derrick Rose (1st), **Omer Asik (36th)
    2007 - Joakim Noah (9th), Aaron Gray (49th), JamesOn Curry (51st)
    2006 - *Tyrus Thomas (4th), *Thabo Sefolosha (13th)
    2005 - no picks
    2004 - Ben Gordon (3rd), Luol Deng (7th), **Chris Duhon (38th)
    2003 - Kirk Hinrich (7th), Tommy Smith (53rd)

    * acquired via trade (i.e. that night)
    ** acquired pick from previous trade (e.g. as future pick)


    Now, let's see which players within ~10 draft slots or so (i.e. relatively similar draft stock) that were arguably better than the player selected by the Bulls:

    2017 - Frank Ntilikina (8th), Dennis Smith (9th), Zach Collins (10th)
    2016 - Caris Levert (20th)
    2015 - Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (23rd), Tyus Jones (24th), Larry Nance Jr (27th)
    2014 - Dario Saric (12th), Zach Lavine (13th), Jusuf Nurkic (16th), Gary Harris (19th), Dario Saric (12th), James Young (17th), Clint Capela (25th)
    2013 - Gorgui Dieng (21st), Mason Plumlee (22nd), Solomon Hill (23rd), Rudy Gobert (27th)
    2012 - Festus Ezeli (30th), Jae Crowder (34th), Draymond Green (35th), Khris Middleton (39th),
    2011 - Kyle Singler (33rd), Chandler Parsons (38th), Jon Leur (40th)
    2009 - Jrue Holiday (17th), Ty Lawson (18th), Jeff Teague (19th), Darren Collison (21st), DeMarre Carroll (27th), Patrick Beverley (42nd)
    2008 - Russel Westbrook (4th), Kevin Love (5th)
    2007 - Thaddeus Young (12th)
    2006 - LaMarcus Aldridge (4th), Brandon Roy (7th), Rudy Gay (8th), JJ Redick (11th), Ronnie Brewer (14th)
    2004 - Andre Iguodala (9th), Al Jefferson (15th), Josh Smith (17th), JR Smith (18th)
    2003 - David West (18th)


    Blatant Misses
    (1) 2006 was absolutely awful. Outside of that, which draft picks did they inherently mess up?
    (2) 2012 it would've been great to get Draymond Green instead of Teague in 2012, but i don't think it is fair to hold it against them for not drafting Green (29 other teams didn't, and 4 teams passed on him twice)
    (3) 2014 McDermott was barely a rotational player, and while it's still soon in many of those players careers, there seem to be plenty of rotation players they could've kept with both of their picks, or asked the T'Wovles to draft Zach Lavine instead of Doug for them

    Acceptable
    (1) 2009 taking James Johnson ahead of all those PGs, but we got Taj later on *(see below)

    Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner
    They definitely hit on 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008 (even with Rose's injuries), 2009 (Taj Gibson was arguably a top-10 player from that draft taken at the end of the 1st), 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all look to be hits as well.


    They've actually done a pretty damn good job. The only franchise-changing mistake was the 2006 draft (which truly has a lot of gravity considering the **** they got and the filet that was on the table).



  8. #788
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    Zach Lavine pretty much came out and said that he was playing for his contract this offseason, so any hope of tanking with him in games late isn't happening. If you think it's a good idea for our FO and Coach to control that by benching a player like him trying to make the best living possible, that's just insane. That'll be a great look for outside FA's that might be looking at Chicago as a good fit for them. "Hey I'm going to go play for these owners that bench their good players in order to lose games, even if it cost them in negotiations"

  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    Zach Lavine pretty much came out and said that he was playing for his contract this offseason, so any hope of tanking with him in games late isn't happening. If you think it's a good idea for our FO and Coach to control that by benching a player like him trying to make the best living possible, that's just insane. That'll be a great look for outside FA's that might be looking at Chicago as a good fit for them. "Hey I'm going to go play for these owners that bench their good players in order to lose games, even if it cost them in negotiations"
    I don't really care if the Bulls win as long as it's one of our core guys that's responsible for the win, like how Lavine has been. We pick where we pick. We got 2 shots at getting quality players this year and maybe we can make a run at Anthony Davis in the future.

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  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    Bulls draft pick history the last 15 years (NOTE: I'm only gonna include the players the Bulls drafted or traded for the rights to draft ... I won't include anyone that never played for the Bulls). I'm using those qualifiers because it shows value lost/gained/used with their respective picks

    2017 - *Lauri Markannen (7th)
    2016 - Denzel Valentine (14th), **Paul Zipser (48th)
    2015 - Bobby Portis (22nd)
    2014 - *Doug McDermott (11th)
    2013 - Tony Snell (20th), Erik Murphy (49th)
    2012 - Marquis Teague (29th)
    2011 - *Nikola Mirotic (23rd), Jimmy Butler (30th)
    2010 - no picks
    2009 - James Johnson (16th), **Taj Gibson (26th)
    2008 - Derrick Rose (1st), **Omer Asik (36th)
    2007 - Joakim Noah (9th), Aaron Gray (49th), JamesOn Curry (51st)
    2006 - *Tyrus Thomas (4th), *Thabo Sefolosha (13th)
    2005 - no picks
    2004 - Ben Gordon (3rd), Luol Deng (7th), **Chris Duhon (38th)
    2003 - Kirk Hinrich (7th), Tommy Smith (53rd)

    * acquired via trade (i.e. that night)
    ** acquired pick from previous trade (e.g. as future pick)


    Now, let's see which players within ~10 draft slots or so (i.e. relatively similar draft stock) that were arguably better than the player selected by the Bulls:

    2017 - Frank Ntilikina (8th), Dennis Smith (9th), Zach Collins (10th)
    2016 - Caris Levert (20th)
    2015 - Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (23rd), Tyus Jones (24th), Larry Nance Jr (27th)
    2014 - Dario Saric (12th), Zach Lavine (13th), Jusuf Nurkic (16th), Gary Harris (19th), Dario Saric (12th), James Young (17th), Clint Capela (25th)
    2013 - Gorgui Dieng (21st), Mason Plumlee (22nd), Solomon Hill (23rd), Rudy Gobert (27th)
    2012 - Festus Ezeli (30th), Jae Crowder (34th), Draymond Green (35th), Khris Middleton (39th),
    2011 - Kyle Singler (33rd), Chandler Parsons (38th), Jon Leur (40th)
    2009 - Jrue Holiday (17th), Ty Lawson (18th), Jeff Teague (19th), Darren Collison (21st), DeMarre Carroll (27th), Patrick Beverley (42nd)
    2008 - Russel Westbrook (4th), Kevin Love (5th)
    2007 - Thaddeus Young (12th)
    2006 - LaMarcus Aldridge (4th), Brandon Roy (7th), Rudy Gay (8th), JJ Redick (11th), Ronnie Brewer (14th)
    2004 - Andre Iguodala (9th), Al Jefferson (15th), Josh Smith (17th), JR Smith (18th)
    2003 - David West (18th)


    Blatant Misses
    (1) 2006 was absolutely awful. Outside of that, which draft picks did they inherently mess up?
    (2) 2012 it would've been great to get Draymond Green instead of Teague in 2012, but i don't think it is fair to hold it against them for not drafting Green (29 other teams didn't, and 4 teams passed on him twice)
    (3) 2014 McDermott was barely a rotational player, and while it's still soon in many of those players careers, there seem to be plenty of rotation players they could've kept with both of their picks, or asked the T'Wovles to draft Zach Lavine instead of Doug for them

    Acceptable
    (1) 2009 taking James Johnson ahead of all those PGs, but we got Taj later on *(see below)

    Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner
    They definitely hit on 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008 (even with Rose's injuries), 2009 (Taj Gibson was arguably a top-10 player from that draft taken at the end of the 1st), 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all look to be hits as well.


    They've actually done a pretty damn good job. The only franchise-changing mistake was the 2006 draft (which truly has a lot of gravity considering the **** they got and the filet that was on the table).
    2013 was a weird one. Snell showed flashes while in Chicago and has actually become a halfway decent player in Milwaukee, but that draft as a whole was very strange. The best player, by far, was taken at 15 (Giannis) and then there are a bunch of okay-good players and some really bad ones taken in that 1st round. I do remember a lot of people here wanted Dieng, who would have been a fine pick, but Gobert is really the only guy after Snell was taken that you could be upset about.

    The worst for me, aside from the obvious whiff on Tyrus, was Dougie. Could have just taken LaVine, or held onto the two players that Denver ended up getting, Nurkic and Harris. Admittedly, I don't know that we're really in that much better shape with that move (unless it was LaVine taken), but we basically gave away McDermott a couple years later and could have at least had some capable role players in place instead.

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aapox View Post
    No one on #teamtank seems to want to admit that the draft is more volatile than not. Top players tend to pan out more times than bottom players but theres still no guarantees either way. My point: look at last years draft, or really any recent draft, and re-draft the players. No re-draft tends to be that close to the real draft. The most important thing is hitting on your player.
    True, but still i would prefer to take my choice on a group of 10 hot prospects instead of a group of 3 or 4.

    Nevertheless, its true what you stated.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    2013 was a weird one. Snell showed flashes while in Chicago and has actually become a halfway decent player in Milwaukee, but that draft as a whole was very strange. The best player, by far, was taken at 15 (Giannis) and then there are a bunch of okay-good players and some really bad ones taken in that 1st round. I do remember a lot of people here wanted Dieng, who would have been a fine pick, but Gobert is really the only guy after Snell was taken that you could be upset about.

    The worst for me, aside from the obvious whiff on Tyrus, was Dougie. Could have just taken LaVine, or held onto the two players that Denver ended up getting, Nurkic and Harris. Admittedly, I don't know that we're really in that much better shape with that move (unless it was LaVine taken), but we basically gave away McDermott a couple years later and could have at least had some capable role players in place instead.
    2013 Draft wasnt expected ro be very strong. I remember we discussing that here.
    Snell had the tools to be a good 3&D... i think his biggest issue here was a mental one. He seemed to lack confidence.

    Anyway, he was the 20th Pick... seems a good pick to me.

  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    Bulls draft pick history the last 15 years (NOTE: I'm only gonna include the players the Bulls drafted or traded for the rights to draft ... I won't include anyone that never played for the Bulls). I'm using those qualifiers because it shows value lost/gained/used with their respective picks

    2017 - *Lauri Markannen (7th)
    2016 - Denzel Valentine (14th), **Paul Zipser (48th)
    2015 - Bobby Portis (22nd)
    2014 - *Doug McDermott (11th)
    2013 - Tony Snell (20th), Erik Murphy (49th)
    2012 - Marquis Teague (29th)
    2011 - *Nikola Mirotic (23rd), Jimmy Butler (30th)
    2010 - no picks
    2009 - James Johnson (16th), **Taj Gibson (26th)
    2008 - Derrick Rose (1st), **Omer Asik (36th)
    2007 - Joakim Noah (9th), Aaron Gray (49th), JamesOn Curry (51st)
    2006 - *Tyrus Thomas (4th), *Thabo Sefolosha (13th)
    2005 - no picks
    2004 - Ben Gordon (3rd), Luol Deng (7th), **Chris Duhon (38th)
    2003 - Kirk Hinrich (7th), Tommy Smith (53rd)
    With the 2011 Draft, Picks 23 and 30, we acquired later:

    2017, Pick #7
    Dunn, Pick #5 in 2016
    Lavine, Pick #13 in 2014
    2018, Pick #12-#15 via Pelicans.

    The 2011 was a good draft when it happened and for waht Jimmy became, but now it just seems like a Jackpot.

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by O_Touro View Post
    2013 Draft wasnt expected ro be very strong. I remember we discussing that here.
    Snell had the tools to be a good 3&D... i think his biggest issue here was a mental one. He seemed to lack confidence.

    Anyway, he was the 20th Pick... seems a good pick to me.
    I wasn't really saying Snell was a bad pick, but pointing out there were a couple good players taken after him and that it was a strange draft overall. It's unusual for the best player (and current superstar) to be taken at 15, like Giannis.

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  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBears79 View Post
    I don't really care if the Bulls win as long as it's one of our core guys that's responsible for the win, like how Lavine has been. We pick where we pick. We got 2 shots at getting quality players this year and maybe we can make a run at Anthony Davis in the future.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    There are a lot of players that will be available right when we are ready to make moves. If we want a legit shot at those players, our young players have to look desirable. I agree. If it's the core young guys, I don't mind at all. I'm ok with Rolo playing the 1st 3 Quarters if it means it gives our young guys confidence going into the 4th with a chance to look good. The losses will come when we expand our rotations. The FO has already said we are doing that 2nd half.

    If Bobby/Denzel/Dunn/Lavine/Lauri/Grant are playing well, I'm cool with it.

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