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  1. #46
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    Nov 2008
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    I think we have to fire dom. I think itís finally time. I donít see any way around it. I donít want mike fired, but not replacing dom is a firable offense to me.

    Iím very intrigued by a new DC. I guess Iím not as confident in our player talent as others, but we will hopefully find out. Our scheme seems to be needlessly complex and we have way too many blown coverages that appear to be due to confusion and end up with 10 or 12 guys on the field too often. Thatís inexcusable. So either our scheme is too complex or we only draft idiots, and I have to imagine itís not the second one.

    To me, we have a lot of decent starters on our defense, just no top end guys. Guys like daniels, Clark, Martinez, Perry, clay, Burnett, haha and Randall probably start or at least see significant time on other defenses, but none of them are the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good defense. Every good defense has at least 2, maybe even as many as 4 defenders better than our best defender, whoís probably Daniels. Thatís the biggest issue for me.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I think we have to fire dom. I think itís finally time. I donít see any way around it. I donít want mike fired, but not replacing dom is a firable offense to me.

    Iím very intrigued by a new DC. I guess Iím not as confident in our player talent as others, but we will hopefully find out. Our scheme seems to be needlessly complex and we have way too many blown coverages that appear to be due to confusion and end up with 10 or 12 guys on the field too often. Thatís inexcusable. So either our scheme is too complex or we only draft idiots, and I have to imagine itís not the second one.

    To me, we have a lot of decent starters on our defense, just no top end guys. Guys like daniels, Clark, Martinez, Perry, clay, Burnett, haha and Randall probably start or at least see significant time on other defenses, but none of them are the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good defense. Every good defense has at least 2, maybe even as many as 4 defenders better than our best defender, whoís probably Daniels. Thatís the biggest issue for me.
    This! Almost exactly what I think and have said maybe a bit differently. I don't think MM is the problem or lost the locker room or anything like that, but holding on to Dom as DC this long is a hit IMO. As is playoff failures, but people take for granted 9 straight years to the playoffs, a SB win and should have been another SB trip if Bostick catches onside. I would say Dom HAS to go, TT SHOULD go as just too many misses in draft last 5 or more years particularly defensively and MM should stay but if new GM wants his own guy than I'd understand.

  3. #48
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    The thing I struggle with just a little is ted hasnít neccesarily missed on picks, but he hasnít hit on picks either. I know that sounds wishy washy and like itís focusing on semantics, but outside of Datone jones, itís hard to label the other first rounders as true misses. They just havenít turned into studs.

    Like Kenny clark looks like a good pick, but isnít elite. Randall is turning into a nice player. King looks like he can be at least a decent starter. Haha is a competent starter, even if heís taken a step back this season. If you go back a bit further, Perry is a fine starter.

    And down deeper in the draft, Martinez looks like a really good player. Ryan isnít horrible for his draft position. Lowry looks more and more like a starter caliber player, whoís at worst a solid rotational guy.

    No doubt to have misses in there. Kyler fackerall as a 3rd rounder jumps out. Rollins can never stay healthy, but he could easily be a bust. Itís too early to tell with guys like jones and Adams from this draft. Iím only mentioning defense in here, but trading up for spriggs is looking like a bad move (and thereís some other very good moves on offense like Adams, Williams and jones). But if you look at the last 5 drafts of any GM, youíll find plenty of misses in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

    Itís easy to write a revisionist history with a couple different moves, but itís a little harder to justify at the time. Like, instead of drafting Randall, we draft Landon Collins, even though we didnít need a safety. But that allows us to move Burnett to LB almost full time with Collins and haha at safety. And because we didnít draft Randall, who showed promise as a rookie, we then resign Casey Hayward, who breaks out with us instead of the Chargers. Then this season, we donít need jones at safety/hybrid, so we take watt in the first and use the picks spent on Adams and jones to trade up for king still.

    Thatís a way we could have improved our defense. But when you peel layers away, itís harder to justify. Hayward was never healthy when we took 2 corners, both who showed promise in their rookie years. Drafting Collins would have had everyone up in arms. So that logic is not sound, but it would have worked.

    I guess my point is, if you use hindsight, itís easy to craft a story of what should have happened. And to an extent, thatís Thompsonís job. But when you really look back at the drafts, itís not as easy to see an obvious path. Itís not like there were 3 pro bowl defenders taken right after our picks in most cases. A lot of times, when you look at the guy/ taken soon after us, the call we made at the time wasnít that bad. Itís not always perfect, and thereís some cases of it turning out really bad (jones), but he hasnít been awful at drafting lately either.

  4. #49
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    Seeing the video of Cam laughing at our defense cause they thought they knew what the Panthers were going to do is the exact reason why Dom should have been fired as soon as that game ended. There were a couple of replays where Cam was laughing at our players after a play. Normally that would piss me off but i don't blame him for laughing one bit.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I would agree with that assessment. But one counterpoint to that is if you look at guys drafted near our picks, itís not like we are missing on big time studs, especially early in drafts. And thatís especially true if you take a step back and look at our team at the time. Like Landon Collins was drafted shortly after Randall, but safety wasnít a need at the time, especially after just take haha.

    Ultimately it doesnít matter. As the GM, your job is to acquire talent. If talent isnít there when youíre drafting, you need to get it elsewhere. I get that. But draft position hasnít done us a ton of favors either.
    Then you trade UP to get a top quality talent. TT just sits there and waits till his pick and when his time comes he either takes a player or trades back. Time to start being more aggressive imo. Specially if there's a big time pass rusher he likes.

  6. #51
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    I'm all for letting Capers go.

    I've heard a few different times that the defense that Capers runs is a very complex defense and I just kind of passed it off like yeah ok whatever maybe we just aren't drafting good enough talent. But, now after seeing a few guys that seemed to flounder in our defense go on and at least be serviceable in other defenses I think its more the scheme than it is the players.

    My only fear is Capers will be let go or retire or whatever it is for him to leave and they will just hire within like they have done with almost every other coordinator position. If they do that they are essentially keeping the same defense.

    Now with that said I think we are more built for a 3-4 so I am not saying to bring someone in to completely revamp the defense and switch schemes but, someone with knowledge of the 3-4 and is a new voice.

    RIP Gene Wilder

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigCheese12 View Post
    Then you trade UP to get a top quality talent. TT just sits there and waits till his pick and when his time comes he either takes a player or trades back. Time to start being more aggressive imo. Specially if there's a big time pass rusher he likes.
    Trade ups are sexy but have a spotty history. Itís really hard to trade up from the 20s, oftentimes the later 20s all the way to the top 10 or 12. Itís going to cost a bunch, so you better be darn sure youíre getting an elite guy.

    And itís tough to be sure of an elite guy if youíre only going up 6-8 spots. If they loved someone, Iíd be all for moving up, but as a whole, moving up makes me nervous, especially in the first when the costs are usually crazy. As a whole, I donít hate the strategy of not trading up very often.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackerBum9786 View Post
    I'm all for letting Capers go.

    I've heard a few different times that the defense that Capers runs is a very complex defense and I just kind of passed it off like yeah ok whatever maybe we just aren't drafting good enough talent. But, now after seeing a few guys that seemed to flounder in our defense go on and at least be serviceable in other defenses I think its more the scheme than it is the players.

    My only fear is Capers will be let go or retire or whatever it is for him to leave and they will just hire within like they have done with almost every other coordinator position. If they do that they are essentially keeping the same defense.

    Now with that said I think we are more built for a 3-4 so I am not saying to bring someone in to completely revamp the defense and switch schemes but, someone with knowledge of the 3-4 and is a new voice.
    I would disagree on the 3-4 thing. I think thereís maybe a handful of players who are questions, but most arenít really impact guys. To me, the only major question mark is of Perry can transition back to playing with his hand on the ground. He did it in college and there were definitely some who thought he was a better fit as an end that OLB. But heís my only question mark of our main guys. Clark and Daniels can be interior tackles from a 4-3 easily. Lowry can be a run stuffing end who slides to tackle on passing downs. Clay might be a better off ball backer in a 4-3. Martinez would be fine as a 4-3 mlb. And it might be easier for Burnett or jones to play more of a true lb in the 4-3, since thereís more bigs to keep bodies off of him.

    You run the risk of guys like fackerall and beigel maybe not being great fits, but you shouldnít pick your defense based upon rotational backups.

    We would need more depth at end, but if I remember correctly, the FA class is deeper at end than OLB, and weíll need to draft a pass rusher anyways, so in this case weíd just be looking more for an end than an olb. Iím not saying we have to switch to a 4-3, but I think our roster is capable of a switch if we like a DC whoís more of a 4-3 guy.

  9. #54
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    Mcarthy is coaching these last two weeks for his job.

    If his scheme continues to fail miserably we have a legit chance of seeing a new coaching regime next year.

    I hope we get slaughtered these last two weeks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #55
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    How was the scheme garbage again? Scoring 24 on a top defense while throwing 3 picks, at least 2 of which we had guys open on is now apparently bad.

    Should we have run the ball more? On paper, sure. But both mike and Aaron said that the panthers front caused Aaron to audible out of the run on multiple occasions. So should mike take freedom away from Aaron?

    I understand the frustration, but I donít get how the offensive scheme is some major issue. Our offense played well and the major downfall was turnovers, which werenít scheme issues.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    How was the scheme garbage again? Scoring 24 on a top defense while throwing 3 picks, at least 2 of which we had guys open on is now apparently bad.

    Should we have run the ball more? On paper, sure. But both mike and Aaron said that the panthers front caused Aaron to audible out of the run on multiple occasions. So should mike take freedom away from Aaron?

    I understand the frustration, but I donít get how the offensive scheme is some major issue. Our offense played well and the major downfall was turnovers, which werenít scheme issues.
    Youíre a simpleton. Simple addition and subtraction rather than calculus.

    Thereís no point trying to explain to you anything.


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  12. #57
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    Just go rewatch the panthers game. Pay attention to the panthers offensive scheming throughout the game.

    Thatís what a real scheme is. Youíll see another good offensive scheme this week (vikes OC has been on fire).


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  13. #58
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    Iím the simpleton, yet every time Iíve asked you to explain scheme issues, thatís your only response. Thereís no point in explaining anything because you have no explanation.

    We lost to carolina by 1 score despite losing the turnover battle 4-0. And we also lost our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player on a cheap shot mid game.

    Looking at our offense, we rank 17th in points per game, which is essentially league average, which isnít impressive. But if you factor in that fact that our defense gives up a bunch of long drives, thus wasting time, we finish the game with less drives than other teams. If you look at football outsiders points per drive stat, we rank 10th in points per drive, which is much more impressive. Football outsiders also has a stat called drive Success Rate, which measures the percentage of down series that end in a first down or score. So if you pick up 3 first downs then punt, you would get 3 successful down sets and 1 failure for that possession. In that stat, we rank 7th in the league.

    All in all, football outsiders ranks us as the 12th best offense in the nfl to date, adjusted for schedule and random luck events. This is all despite the best player on the planet playing just under half of our total quarters played.

    But yes, mike doesnít have a clue how to scheme anything.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Iím the simpleton, yet every time Iíve asked you to explain scheme issues, thatís your only response. Thereís no point in explaining anything because you have no explanation.

    We lost to carolina by 1 score despite losing the turnover battle 4-0. And we also lost our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player on a cheap shot mid game.

    Looking at our offense, we rank 17th in points per game, which is essentially league average, which isnít impressive. But if you factor in that fact that our defense gives up a bunch of long drives, thus wasting time, we finish the game with less drives than other teams. If you look at football outsiders points per drive stat, we rank 10th in points per drive, which is much more impressive. Football outsiders also has a stat called drive Success Rate, which measures the percentage of down series that end in a first down or score. So if you pick up 3 first downs then punt, you would get 3 successful down sets and 1 failure for that possession. In that stat, we rank 7th in the league.

    All in all, football outsiders ranks us as the 12th best offense in the nfl to date, adjusted for schedule and random luck events. This is all despite the best player on the planet playing just under half of our total quarters played.

    But yes, mike doesnít have a clue how to scheme anything.
    Iím not even gonna read your drivel, period.

    Talent is much more saturated in the League than you fail to believe, my friend.

    Scheming matters.


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  15. #60
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    Week 15 GDT: Green Bay Packers (7-6) AT Carolina Panthers (9-4)

    If you actually can watch the last game and not see how badly MM and DC were outschemed, thereís no hope in trying to fix your beliefs.

    Donít pay attention to the stats or the box score. watch the game bruh.


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