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  1. #6391
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I get both sides of it, though you dont HAVE to reach the salary floor.

    Ultimately, I Just don't think there was ever anything to be gained by playing Payton, Randle, Morris...etc... the lions share of minutes. All we did was get a worse pick out of it. unfortunately it's what we do every year though and this year seems no different. Signed a bunch of 1 year deals for guys that most likely have no future here, but might get us the #8 pick again.

    Maybe next year we finally jump up in the lotto, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors.

    As for Frank, I don't think they ever did a good job of instilling confidence and belief in him. All we've done since drafting him is sign or trade for scrub PG's that never had a chance of being here long term... despite what some thought. So many said guys like Burke, Mudiay and even Payton could be the answers, when it was clear the NBA didn't want those guys. We should have signed veteran PG's that could mentor and knew their role... instead we keep going after young PG's that suck but are trying to hang on for their NBA lives and only care about themselves.

    Jarret Jack was the last PG we got that actually made sense.
    Well we did get Quickley for signing Morris and playing him starterís minutes. We were awful too.

  2. #6392
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Well we did get Quickley for signing Morris and playing him starterís minutes. We were awful too.
    Morris was a highly coveted player that we stole from the Spurs, and paid $15M on a one-year deal. He's now making $64M over the next four years.

    That is not even close to comparable to bringing in guys like Payton, Burks, and Rivers, who together don't reach what Mook demanded on the market.

  3. #6393
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Well we did get Quickley for signing Morris and playing him starterís minutes. We were awful too.
    i dont think we have a Morris on this team this year, but that's fine if that's your intention, vs trying to win 35 games and get an 8th seed.

    it's why I'm fine with Rivers, I dont see him as a long term piece but I do think he can be trade bait at the deadline, maybe even Burks too.

    No one will want Payton or Randle though. Payton at 24 years of age coming off a career year was traded for the #44 pick, teams just don't value his style of play. there's a reason we got all these guys on cheap 1 year deals.

  4. #6394
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    What do you mean all 3 arenít on the team? Or did you mean Burke?
    Yes my bad. I thought you a
    weíre taking about Trey. I
    agree with your point. Sorry


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  5. #6395
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    i dont think we have a Morris on this team this year, but that's fine if that's your intention, vs trying to win 35 games and get an 8th seed.

    it's why I'm fine with Rivers, I dont see him as a long term piece but I do think he can be trade bait at the deadline, maybe even Burks too.

    No one will want Payton or Randle though. Payton at 24 years of age coming off a career year was traded for the #44 pick, teams just don't value his style of play. there's a reason we got all these guys on cheap 1 year deals.
    They didnít sign Randle to fill out the roster. They signed him hoping he would be part of the future. Payton is a stop gag. You are right he wonít have trade value. I donít know if we can fill out a crappy roster with guy over 31 (that seems ok) and guys that will have trade value. Someone has to take the spot


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  6. #6396
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    I really don't have an issue with the idea of bringing in a point guard to run with the first team, given that based on the last few seasons we know DSJ and Frank can't be relied on to take the reins of the offense. I think it's a good idea to have a legit PG out there so that RJ, Obi and Mitch can grow.

    The problem is with Payton. He's clearly the best PG on the team. And is a good distributor when he wants to be. But he's just the absolute worst fit for RJ. He kills the spacing. He pounds the ball. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. It's just the opposite of what you'd want when you have a #3 pick who (a) needs space to do what he does best, i.e., get to the rack and (b) needs the ball in his hands to see whether he can be a primary ballhandler or if he's destined to be a secondary one.

    But whatever, we have Payton. And I actually love the Burks signing. He's not a high usage guy, and he's actually one of the best ball-movers in the NBA. The ball doesn't stick to him. He either makes a move, or keeps it moving. And his legitimate shooting will help RJ by spacing the floor.

    But when you sign Payton and Burke, AND THEN also bring in Rivers, it just borders on making no sense. We have a ton of young guards that need minutes. Rivers could soak up 20-30 minutes that could be going to DSJ, Frank, and Quickley. But instead, we'll probably win one or two more games and our young guys won't get the same opportunities.

    And the idea that we're going to flip any of these guys for anything other than like 2025 2nd round pick is hilarious. These guys are journeymen. Every team has guys like them, and could have had them at their very low salary. This is not even close to a Marcus Morris situation.

  7. #6397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    I really don't have an issue with the idea of bringing in a point guard to run with the first team, given that based on the last few seasons we know DSJ and Frank can't be relied on to take the reins of the offense. I think it's a good idea to have a legit PG out there so that RJ, Obi and Mitch can grow.

    The problem is with Payton. He's clearly the best PG on the team. And is a good distributor when he wants to be. But he's just the absolute worst fit for RJ. He kills the spacing. He pounds the ball. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. It's just the opposite of what you'd want when you have a #3 pick who (a) needs space to do what he does best, i.e., get to the rack and (b) needs the ball in his hands to see whether he can be a primary ballhandler or if he's destined to be a secondary one.

    But whatever, we have Payton. And I actually love the Burks signing. He's not a high usage guy, and he's actually one of the best ball-movers in the NBA. The ball doesn't stick to him. He either makes a move, or keeps it moving. And his legitimate shooting will help RJ by spacing the floor.

    But when you sign Payton and Burke, AND THEN also bring in Rivers, it just borders on making no sense. We have a ton of young guards that need minutes. Rivers could soak up 20-30 minutes that could be going to DSJ, Frank, and Quickley. But instead, we'll probably win one or two more games and our young guys won't get the same opportunities.

    And the idea that we're going to flip any of these guys for anything other than like 2025 2nd round pick is hilarious. These guys are journeymen. Every team has guys like them, and could have had them at their very low salary. This is not even close to a Marcus Morris situation.
    You can't help but agree with this. We took RJ Barrett with the #3 overall pick. We want him to be Dwyane Wade. A superstar who can give us 25-6-6 nightly. You don't want Elfred Payton with that type of player. Ironically, Frank Nkitilina's absolute ceiling is the perfect player for RJ. He's a defensive player with an improving jumpshot who can bring the ball up but doesn't need the ball. I had no idea he shot so well on corner 3's either. That's a nice little stat. That question is if Frank can ever reach that potential.

    A backcourt with Frank/Quickley is perfect for RJ. The question is if either Frank and/or Quickley can reach their potential as a above average shooting + strong defensive backcourt.

    Obi Toppin at PF works with RJ too. The potential is there it just seems like a lot of long shots need to come in. If even just 2 or 3 of these young guys hit we will be in good shape to make big moves next offseason.


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  8. #6398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    Morris was a highly coveted player that we stole from the Spurs, and paid $15M on a one-year deal. He's now making $64M over the next four years.

    That is not even close to comparable to bringing in guys like Payton, Burks, and Rivers, who together don't reach what Mook demanded on the market.
    I wasnít comparing Morris to those guys, just wanted to point out that while we got a worse pick (but arguably Top 5 talent) we still grabbed another 1st and got a player we valued highly later in the draft.

  9. #6399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    I really don't have an issue with the idea of bringing in a point guard to run with the first team, given that based on the last few seasons we know DSJ and Frank can't be relied on to take the reins of the offense. I think it's a good idea to have a legit PG out there so that RJ, Obi and Mitch can grow.

    The problem is with Payton. He's clearly the best PG on the team. And is a good distributor when he wants to be. But he's just the absolute worst fit for RJ. He kills the spacing. He pounds the ball. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. It's just the opposite of what you'd want when you have a #3 pick who (a) needs space to do what he does best, i.e., get to the rack and (b) needs the ball in his hands to see whether he can be a primary ballhandler or if he's destined to be a secondary one.

    But whatever, we have Payton. And I actually love the Burks signing. He's not a high usage guy, and he's actually one of the best ball-movers in the NBA. The ball doesn't stick to him. He either makes a move, or keeps it moving. And his legitimate shooting will help RJ by spacing the floor.

    But when you sign Payton and Burke, AND THEN also bring in Rivers, it just borders on making no sense. We have a ton of young guards that need minutes. Rivers could soak up 20-30 minutes that could be going to DSJ, Frank, and Quickley. But instead, we'll probably win one or two more games and our young guys won't get the same opportunities.

    And the idea that we're going to flip any of these guys for anything other than like 2025 2nd round pick is hilarious. These guys are journeymen. Every team has guys like them, and could have had them at their very low salary. This is not even close to a Marcus Morris situation.
    I would hope that Payton worked on his 3PT shot over this long layoff. Last year was really an outlier for him out there. Heís never been a shooter obviously, but he was still 31% from 3 after his rookie season (on nearly 2 attempts per game). Thatís significantly more playable than the 20% he shot last season. His FT% also dropped from 66% over that same timespan to 57% last season too.

  10. #6400
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Is RJ Barrett any better tomorrow if we replaced Payton with a scrub pg that can shoot a little? How much better does Langston Galloaway or DJ Augustine make Barrett? Iíd prefer the spacing. I think the team might be more entertaining to watch if they had a PG that could shoot a little but I still think Barrett is a poor finisher. I love his attitude and think he could maybe be an all star one day but I donít see Wade or Kobe balls skills and finishing ability in his grasp.


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  11. #6401
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    I would hope that Payton worked on his 3PT shot over this long layoff. Last year was really an outlier for him out there. Heís never been a shooter obviously, but he was still 31% from 3 after his rookie season (on nearly 2 attempts per game). Thatís significantly more playable than the 20% he shot last season. His FT% also dropped from 66% over that same timespan to 57% last season too.
    I think he got less lucky. His shot often doesnít get higher then the rim. He might make a couple more this year. I hope he does but I donít think he is really going to truely improve as a shooter


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  12. #6402
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Is RJ Barrett any better tomorrow if we replaced Payton with a scrub pg that can shoot a little? How much better does Langston Galloaway or DJ Augustine make Barrett? Iíd prefer the spacing. I think the team might be more entertaining to watch if they had a PG that could shoot a little but I still think Barrett is a poor finisher. I love his attitude and think he could maybe be an all star one day but I donít see Wade or Kobe balls skills and finishing ability in his grasp.


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    At age 22, D-Wade debuted as a rookie and got 16 ppg and 5 FT per game. At age 19, RJ got 14ppg and 4.5FT per game. RJ's efficiency was doo-doo but he had no teammates. Wade debuted at 22 with Eddie Jones, Lamar Odom, Butler, Eddie Jones, Haslem, Rafer, Eddies Jones, Brian Grant and Eddie Jones. He had some legit teammates to help him.

    Have you ever imagined a rookie RJ Barrett with Eddie Jones as a teammate? I have. Every.single.night.


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  13. #6403
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    At age 22, D-Wade debuted as a rookie and got 16 ppg and 5 FT per game. At age 19, RJ got 14ppg and 4.5FT per game. RJ's efficiency was doo-doo but he had no teammates. Wade debuted at 22 with Eddie Jones, Lamar Odom, Butler, Eddie Jones, Haslem, Rafer, Eddies Jones, Brian Grant and Eddie Jones. He had some legit teammates to help him.

    Have you ever imagined a rookie RJ Barrett with Eddie Jones as a teammate? I have. Every.single.night.
    Yes I have and I still donít think he is a good finisher or a guy that you would allow to be totally ball dominant like Wade or Kobe that why I asked. I do think he going to be good I just donít see this run everything through me guy people seem to be projecting him to be


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  14. #6404
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    They didnít sign Randle to fill out the roster. They signed him hoping he would be part of the future. Payton is a stop gag. You are right he wonít have trade value. I donít know if we can fill out a crappy roster with guy over 31 (that seems ok) and guys that will have trade value. Someone has to take the spot


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    that;s the other issue. we pick the wrong players. Randle was never a good fit here, yet we paid him $20m per.

    Meanwhile guys like Brogdon, Dlo, Beasely, Bogs, Bertans...etc.. pass us by in FAgency and we seemingly don't even try.

  15. #6405
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    that;s the other issue. we pick the wrong players. Randle was never a good fit here, yet we paid him $20m per.

    Meanwhile guys like Brogdon, Dlo, Beasely, Bogs, Bertans...etc.. pass us by in FAgency and we seemingly don't even try.
    Keep hearing how we are saving cap..Not sure for who

    Apparently we will just keep handing out one year deals, and have pretty much a brand new team every year

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