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  1. #6376
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    They played. They played more then enough mins to mature. If they were decent they would have played more. It worked for KP, itís working for Mitch, and Iíd bet it works for Barrett. It works on decent teams where it is even harder to get mins. I donít think Frank was an embarrassment either. He was a small step up from that so he got his 22 mins. How much better would Frank be if he played 28 mins a night instead of 22? Whose actually supposed to be on the team? How do they get to the salary floor if free agent worth locking up donít come?




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    I get both sides of it, though you dont HAVE to reach the salary floor.

    Ultimately, I Just don't think there was ever anything to be gained by playing Payton, Randle, Morris...etc... the lions share of minutes. All we did was get a worse pick out of it. unfortunately it's what we do every year though and this year seems no different. Signed a bunch of 1 year deals for guys that most likely have no future here, but might get us the #8 pick again.

    Maybe next year we finally jump up in the lotto, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors.

    As for Frank, I don't think they ever did a good job of instilling confidence and belief in him. All we've done since drafting him is sign or trade for scrub PG's that never had a chance of being here long term... despite what some thought. So many said guys like Burke, Mudiay and even Payton could be the answers, when it was clear the NBA didn't want those guys. We should have signed veteran PG's that could mentor and knew their role... instead we keep going after young PG's that suck but are trying to hang on for their NBA lives and only care about themselves.

    Jarret Jack was the last PG we got that actually made sense.

  2. #6377
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I get both sides of it, though you dont HAVE to reach the salary floor.

    Ultimately, I Just don't think there was ever anything to be gained by playing Payton, Randle, Morris...etc... the lions share of minutes. All we did was get a worse pick out of it. unfortunately it's what we do every year though and this year seems no different. Signed a bunch of 1 year deals for guys that most likely have no future here, but might get us the #8 pick again.

    Maybe next year we finally jump up in the lotto, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors.

    As for Frank, I don't think they ever did a good job of instilling confidence and belief in him. All we've done since drafting him is sign or trade for scrub PG's that never had a chance of being here long term... despite what some thought. So many said guys like Burke, Mudiay and even Payton could be the answers, when it was clear the NBA didn't want those guys. We should have signed veteran PG's that could mentor and knew their role... instead we keep going after young PG's that suck but are trying to hang on for their NBA lives and only care about themselves.

    Jarret Jack was the last PG we got that actually made sense.
    I donít see any difference bt Jack, Payton, and Rivers. All are high IQ guys, play unselfish basketball, and can be learned from. All are ****** enough where you can platoon them with another player and shove them to the side if a young guy looks decent. As for Frank he has been treated very well.
    You are saying vets like Rivers are unacceptable and younger guys like Burke are too so Iím going ask if you canít get someone you think is worth long term investment how do you fill out the roaster?
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    Last edited by ewing; 12-02-2020 at 09:15 AM.
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  3. #6378
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I donít see any difference bt Jack, Payton, and Rivers. All are high IQ guys, play unselfish basketball, and can be learned from. All are ****** enough where you can platoon them with another player and shove them to the side if a young guy looks decent. As for Frank he has been treated very well.
    You are saying vets like Rivers are unacceptable and younger guys like Burke are too so Iím going ask if you canít get someone you think is worth long term investment how do you fill out the roaster?
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    Never said Rivers and Burke were unacceptable. Burks fills a role at least, and Rivers could end up being a trade piece that gets us a 2nd rounder at the deadline. Neither are PG's anyway and we don't have much at SG.

    Was just talking specifically about Frank's situation. You fill out a roster with guys that know their roles, guys like Taj Gibson and Jack. Payton, Rivers, Morris, Portis...etc... those guys on 1 year deals are just going to be there trying to get theirs. yet they are not good enough or young enough to be long term pieces.

    Ultimately like Windhorst said, Our priority should have been guys that compliment RJ & Mitch and we seem to be doing the opposite.

  4. #6379
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Never said Rivers and Burke were unacceptable. Burks fills a role at least, and Rivers could end up being a trade piece that gets us a 2nd rounder at the deadline. Neither are PG's anyway and we don't have much at SG.

    Was just talking specifically about Frank's situation. You fill out a roster with guys that know their roles, guys like Taj Gibson and Jack. Payton, Rivers, Morris, Portis...etc... those guys on 1 year deals are just going to be there trying to get theirs. yet they are not good enough or young enough to be long term pieces.

    Ultimately like Windhorst said, Our priority should have been guys that compliment RJ & Mitch and we seem to be doing the opposite.
    My main issue isnít Payton, Rivers, or Burks (although I think Rivers is kind of a bum). My issue is why all 3. Just further complicates things. And like you said, pretty much all one year deals. Creating a tense situation to begin with. All these young guys we have arent swag types, who are supremely confident, and take the challenge. They havenít taken failure well

  5. #6380
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Never said Rivers and Burke were unacceptable. Burks fills a role at least, and Rivers could end up being a trade piece that gets us a 2nd rounder at the deadline. Neither are PG's anyway and we don't have much at SG.

    Was just talking specifically about Frank's situation. You fill out a roster with guys that know their roles, guys like Taj Gibson and Jack. Payton, Rivers, Morris, Portis...etc... those guys on 1 year deals are just going to be there trying to get theirs. yet they are not good enough or young enough to be long term pieces.

    Ultimately like Windhorst said, Our priority should have been guys that compliment RJ & Mitch and we seem to be doing the opposite.
    I donít see any difference in the way Payton, Morris, and Portis approached the game in NY on a one year and way they have elsewhere. I doubt we will with Rivers either. Portis and Morris like to shoot. Payton canít and shoot and plays QB. This is who they are and I donít think they are sabotaging anyone. The Knicks stink bc they gave away KP and Hardaway for a bag of chips, the young guys they have arenít that good, and no one really good wants to sign here. I hope some of the young guys get better. I donít think anyone is stopping them from improving


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  6. #6381
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    My main issue isnít Payton, Rivers, or Burks (although I think Rivers is kind of a bum). My issue is why all 3. Just further complicates things. And like you said, pretty much all one year deals. Creating a tense situation to begin with. All these young guys we have arent swag types, who are supremely confident, and take the challenge. They havenít taken failure well
    that's why i say, guys that know their roles. all 3 of those guys want and expect to play. We should be filling out the roster with some older veteran mentors that dont expect significant minutes. I feel like the past 2-3 years we try to go 15 deep and it ends up being a cluster**** and so many guys tank their value.

  7. #6382
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I donít see any difference in the way Payton, Morris, and Portis approached the game in NY on a one year and way they have elsewhere. I doubt we will with Rivers either. Portis and Morris like to shoot. Payton canít and shoot and plays QB. This is who they are and I donít think they are sabotaging anyone. The Knicks stink bc they gave away KP and Hardaway for a bag of chips, the young guys they have arenít that good, and no one really good wants to sign here. I hope some of the young guys get better. I donít think anyone is stopping them from improving


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    you dont see how having all those guys sabotages the team? We should have been picking top 3 every year for the past 4-5 years.

  8. #6383
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    My main issue isnít Payton, Rivers, or Burks (although I think Rivers is kind of a bum). My issue is why all 3. Just further complicates things. And like you said, pretty much all one year deals. Creating a tense situation to begin with. All these young guys we have arent swag types, who are supremely confident, and take the challenge. They havenít taken failure well
    all 3 arenít on the team. I can see why you would say it should be Payton or Rivers if Rivers can play PG. That makes sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  9. #6384
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    yes our young guys stink, but that's the point, what bottom feeding team without a core in place is going out and signing guys like Payton, Morris, Rivers...etc... to play big minutes? it just screams desperate for an 8th seed yet we end up at 30 wins and picking #8th every year instead.

  10. #6385
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    Frank Ntilikina's Projected Outlook Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    you dont see how having all those guys sabotages the team? We should have been picking top 3 every year for the past 4-5 years.
    That is a different discussion. We were discussing if these guys are stopping our young guys from getting better. I do think we signed too many of these guys and it might have lead to a few more wins but honestly itís going to be hard to be much worse. The Burkes or Gibsons you fill the roaster out with might be just as good or better then the Paytons and Portiss.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  11. #6386
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    That is a different discussion. We were discussing if these guys are stopping our young guys from getting better. I do think we signed too many of these guys and it might have lead to a few more wins but honestly itís going to be hard to be much worse. The Burkes or Gibsons you fill the roaster out with might be just as good or better then Payton and Portis.


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    i dont necessarily think that's the case, but it puts coaches in a tough spot b/c every coach wants to win. especially a lame duck coach like Miller last year.

    We can all agree Payton was better than Frank last year, or Burke the year before... but there was nothing to be gained. we can all agree that Burks & Rivers are better than Quickley right now, but what's best for the team and their development?

    I'm not one to say give 30mpg to every youngin, but Mitch is another guy, listen he got into foul trouble alot, but there were so many games where he wasn't in foul trouble and only played 15-20 minutes. Mitch is the youngest 22 year old in the NBA in terms of professional basketball experience. yet we went with guys like Portis, Randle and Taj over him many times b/c Miller was more worried about HERE AND NOW. not Mitch or our pick or our teams future.

  12. #6387
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    all 3 arenít on the team. I can see why you would say it should be Payton or Rivers if Rivers can play PG. That makes sense.


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    What do you mean all 3 arenít on the team? Or did you mean Burke?

  13. #6388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    Honestly there's no downside to just force feeding Frank 30 minutes per.

    If he plays well, great. If he sucks, also great, we'll get a better draft pick.
    The downside is all the other guys on the team you want to "develop" and learn to play good basketball are forced to play without a point guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    Do you think Immanuel Quickley sucks because he isnít beating an NBA vet like Austin Rivers out of a spot in the lineup at 20 years old with basically no training camp?

    Is it smart to continue to play Rivers on whatís essentially an expiring deal over Quickley on a 15 to 20 win team, even if Rivers might be the better player right now?

    I think these two questions highlight the issues with this line of thought. Now also apply it to Frank, Dot, DSJ, Knox and Iggy this year and the past two years.
    I don't think the 25th pick in the draft has ever been a shoe-in for mins on any team in the history of the NBA. They always have to beat someone out to get mins as a rookie.

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    you dont see how having all those guys sabotages the team? We should have been picking top 3 every year for the past 4-5 years.
    Please explain this logic. Have the teams picking top 3 past few years had no journeymen vets getting minutes on their teams? It's simply not true. Knicks have had ****** luck in the lottery, but they weren't doing things much different than the teams that lucked out. I would say most bad teams have been exactly like the Knicks, with a couple good shots at #1 pick (Knicks 2015, 2019), and the rest in the mid lottery needing a little luck. Knicks haven't gotten any luck whatsoever.

    Look at the teams that have snagged the best prospects over that span and tell me that they did some type of Philly tank or didn't have vets playing or didn't leapfrog from the middle to the top of the lottery. Because it's not true. Knicks have fell back the two times they had a great shot and never once moved up from the mid lottery with lottery ball luck. That is the difference between them and the vast majority of teams that have gotten a generational prospect over that span.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 12-02-2020 at 10:41 AM.

  14. #6389
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    Hawks top 5 in minutes played per game last year:

    Trae Young (21 years old) = 35.3 minutes per game
    John Collins (22 years old) = 33.2 minutes per game
    De'Andre Hunter (22 years old) = 32 minutes per game
    Kevin Huerter (21 years old) = 31.4 minutes per game
    Cam Reddish (20 years old) = 26.7 minutes per game

    Not gonna lie. I'm jealous.


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  15. #6390
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Hawks top 5 in minutes played per game last year:

    Trae Young (21 years old) = 35.3 minutes per game
    John Collins (22 years old) = 33.2 minutes per game
    De'Andre Hunter (22 years old) = 32 minutes per game
    Kevin Huerter (21 years old) = 31.4 minutes per game
    Cam Reddish (20 years old) = 26.7 minutes per game

    Not gonna lie. I'm jealous.
    And Iíve been saying all along, Iím going to low-key root for them. Nice young team, now with some legit talented vets

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