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Thread: Officiating

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Okay, but they can't keep calling it like they have this year where one gentle bump to the head is a flagrant and another is a no-call. If you watch the games the players regularly tell the refs they were hit on the head and the refs just ignore them. The players expect consistency but the rules are not consistent nor is their implementation.

    The issue I have with it is that the ways the refs decide the severity of the contact is by how extreme the player getting hit reacts. I find it sad when a 180lb guy is held but doesn't complain and no call, then that 180lb guy touches a 230lb guy who launches himself across the floor and it's a foul.

    I guess it all comes back to they need more eyes on the floor.
    they should generally err by not intervening in the game. unfortunately the NBA has not held that view with regard to officiating for some time. an under officiated game is usually fairer and more consistently called game then an over officiated game. call what you are sure of should be the motto. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. Like in the real world 0 tolerance polices are not the solution
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    they should generally err by not intervening in the game. unfortunately the NBA has not held that view with regard to officiating for some time. an under officiated game is usually fairer and more consistently called game then an over officiated game. call what you are sure of should be the motto. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. Like in the real world 0 tolerance polices are not the solution
    And I agree with you ... but the way it is isn't working, and I don't see them going back to the place where head contact wasn't special.

  3. #303
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    I think they should just call the game by the rules. If there is some ambiguity in what kind of contact constitutes a foul, etc, then they should first of all try to clarify that more in the rules then go from there and call the games by the rules as they are stated.

    One thing that's weird to me is the way the announcers kind of go hand in hand with the referees / league in the way the game is being called, and this carries over to the overall presentation of the "NBA TV" show in general.

    For instance, if a foul call is really marginal or just clearly wrong, many times the announcers will just not say anything. You'll hear a noticeable pause or gap in the commentary and then they just switch the subject. Likewise, if a call is really bad, or more accurately if it isn't congruous with the way the game is being called for the other team, there will almost never be a video replay.

    What I mean by this is, let's say if Harden goes to the line three possessions in a row and it is just like some drawn body contact as he goes up toward the basket or a player jumping upward in front of him etc. If then right after that Steph Curry takes it hard to the hoop in traffic and there is pretty obviously unavoidable body contact and he slides out of bounds but there is no foul call, you will never see close-up replay of that. Likewise if Curry or Ben Simmons is getting pounded on by defenders, but then Harden or somebody just gets an automatic whistle seemingly based on having gotten around their man and missed a shot, you will mostly not see a close up replay of that. Or if it's a really crucial play you will just see a strange angle on the replay, say a camera view up from the floor as Harden makes his layup, that doesn't just plainly show he wasn't really contacted on the play but the ref was on the other side of the defender and just called the foul kind of automatically

    But the ambiguity is a real thing. Like you will see "reach in" type fouls very frequently which seem very marginal, mostly like the player just lost the dribble, but then sometimes on a replay when there was no call you can see that the defenders hand hit the offensive players arm when they are holding the ball to pass or while rebounding and the announcers will say "that looked like a clean steal" or "that looked like a clean block"

    So aside from the announcers kind of smoothing out the sailing ship continually to try and gloss up the refereeing as much as possible, there are also seemingly contradictory interpretations you'll see in the same game: one touch on the arm is a "clear foul", while another is a "clean block."

    And again most of these really marginal calls aren't commented on or shown on replay unless they are crucial to the narrative of the game

    I *kind of* agree with Ewing's statement above about not intervening in the game, however it is clear that teams like this Boston team try to capitalize on that by storming out with a lot of effort and using a lot of rough tactics. Then if you just don't call any fouls either way it is just like an intervention in favor of Boston.

    So I might just rephrase that slightly and say that the refs shouldn't make super marginal calls. For instance, if we the viewers have to watch the call on replay ten times during a timeout, and the radio people are arguing about it the next day, and Vince Pazienza head of NBA refereeing has to come out and explain the physics equations of bodily momentum and motive and intention to the announcers after the commercial break, then bottom line the call was super super marginal and it shouldn't have been called. There is PLENTY of contact every game for the refs to call a few fouls. So the shouldn't make calls that are super marginal. If the call is a coinflip and has to be analyzed in slow-motion for a week to decide was it a foul, then it shouldn't be called a foul. And so when you give Harden these kind of fouls when lesser name brand players are obviously getting hammered and no foul calls then clearly there is something off. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I will say that the one flaw in NBA basketball is the control of the refs running around -- it's why basketball can never be as precise and decisive as tennis or as in-your-face all the marbles definite and final as say boxing or UFC, so that is why the refereeing process should really be transparent. At a minimum the announcers should be willing to openly judge calls and not give the impression that it is complete vertical integration

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssmush View Post
    I think they should just call the game by the rules. If there is some ambiguity in what kind of contact constitutes a foul, etc, then they should first of all try to clarify that more in the rules then go from there and call the games by the rules as they are stated.

    One thing that's weird to me is the way the announcers kind of go hand in hand with the referees / league in the way the game is being called, and this carries over to the overall presentation of the "NBA TV" show in general.

    For instance, if a foul call is really marginal or just clearly wrong, many times the announcers will just not say anything. You'll hear a noticeable pause or gap in the commentary and then they just switch the subject. Likewise, if a call is really bad, or more accurately if it isn't congruous with the way the game is being called for the other team, there will almost never be a video replay.

    What I mean by this is, let's say if Harden goes to the line three possessions in a row and it is just like some drawn body contact as he goes up toward the basket or a player jumping upward in front of him etc. If then right after that Steph Curry takes it hard to the hoop in traffic and there is pretty obviously unavoidable body contact and he slides out of bounds but there is no foul call, you will never see close-up replay of that. Likewise if Curry or Ben Simmons is getting pounded on by defenders, but then Harden or somebody just gets an automatic whistle seemingly based on having gotten around their man and missed a shot, you will mostly not see a close up replay of that. Or if it's a really crucial play you will just see a strange angle on the replay, say a camera view up from the floor as Harden makes his layup, that doesn't just plainly show he wasn't really contacted on the play but the ref was on the other side of the defender and just called the foul kind of automatically

    But the ambiguity is a real thing. Like you will see "reach in" type fouls very frequently which seem very marginal, mostly like the player just lost the dribble, but then sometimes on a replay when there was no call you can see that the defenders hand hit the offensive players arm when they are holding the ball to pass or while rebounding and the announcers will say "that looked like a clean steal" or "that looked like a clean block"

    So aside from the announcers kind of smoothing out the sailing ship continually to try and gloss up the refereeing as much as possible, there are also seemingly contradictory interpretations you'll see in the same game: one touch on the arm is a "clear foul", while another is a "clean block."

    And again most of these really marginal calls aren't commented on or shown on replay unless they are crucial to the narrative of the game

    I *kind of* agree with Ewing's statement above about not intervening in the game, however it is clear that teams like this Boston team try to capitalize on that by storming out with a lot of effort and using a lot of rough tactics. Then if you just don't call any fouls either way it is just like an intervention in favor of Boston.

    So I might just rephrase that slightly and say that the refs shouldn't make super marginal calls. For instance, if we the viewers have to watch the call on replay ten times during a timeout, and the radio people are arguing about it the next day, and Vince Pazienza head of NBA refereeing has to come out and explain the physics equations of bodily momentum and motive and intention to the announcers after the commercial break, then bottom line the call was super super marginal and it shouldn't have been called. There is PLENTY of contact every game for the refs to call a few fouls. So the shouldn't make calls that are super marginal. If the call is a coinflip and has to be analyzed in slow-motion for a week to decide was it a foul, then it shouldn't be called a foul. And so when you give Harden these kind of fouls when lesser name brand players are obviously getting hammered and no foul calls then clearly there is something off. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I will say that the one flaw in NBA basketball is the control of the refs running around -- it's why basketball can never be as precise and decisive as tennis or as in-your-face all the marbles definite and final as say boxing or UFC, so that is why the refereeing process should really be transparent. At a minimum the announcers should be willing to openly judge calls and not give the impression that it is complete vertical integration
    The rules do need to be clarified. The way the rules are written moving screens are legal. There are a bunch of poorly defined rules.

    The national announcers are employed by the NBA so it's not too surprising they mostly agree with the refs. The local team announcers are the worst (not all of them), they talk like every call against their team was a bad call and that every play on the other end is a foul. I think that more than any thing else is why fans are so bad at recognizing what is and what is not a foul.

    Riley's Knicks were the first team I saw that straight up fouled 4 or 5 times a possession and were just daring officials to call them all which of course didn't happen. It got so bad the league changed the hand checking rules. I hope the top goal is for officials to call a game the same both ways.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The rules do need to be clarified. The way the rules are written moving screens are legal. There are a bunch of poorly defined rules.

    The national announcers are employed by the NBA so it's not too surprising they mostly agree with the refs. The local team announcers are the worst (not all of them), they talk like every call against their team was a bad call and that every play on the other end is a foul. I think that more than any thing else is why fans are so bad at recognizing what is and what is not a foul.

    Riley's Knicks were the first team I saw that straight up fouled 4 or 5 times a possession and were just daring officials to call them all which of course didn't happen. It got so bad the league changed the hand checking rules. I hope the top goal is for officials to call a game the same both ways.
    yep, exactly

    and like tonight, GSW shoots 14 FTs while Houston shoots 27 FTs. And Houston "wins the game" by 3 points. So the FT differential is the whole game right there, that's the entire contest

    Now, to be fair, I haven't even watched this game yet, I just got home and looked at the box score. I will watch it a bit later tonight. But what do you think the odds are that when I watch that game, I am going to see Steph Curry getting ROUGHED up all over the place, hit, held, pushed off the spot away from the ball, knocked around every time he drives, physically defended by forwards way out above the three-point line, etc.

    But somehow Golden State only shoots 14 free throws all game? Seven fouls all game, really? And if they're going to call the game like that, ok, but of course they are giving almost exactly twice the number of FTs to Houston

    Now, I could say that Houston winning and the series going to 2-2 is vital to a lot of narratives and marketing possibilities, now instead of GSW up 3-1 and the outcome a done deal, now it is "anybody's series" and both the East and West are knotted up in "tight competitive series" and get ready for an amazing weekend of NBA action it is fan-tastic etc

    I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that the way the rules are structured and applied, hypothetically it gives the referees a lever to control or alter the outcomes of close games with a very precise level of control. Hypothetically

    I mean I guess this is no secret, I've seen/read/heard interviews with Haralabous and some other NBA gambling experts and they definitely seem to factor refereeing and various aspects of the narratives around the games into their decision making

  6. #306
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    Ooo hoo. Now the Cavs could face a depleted Houston with cp3 out and harden slumping and exhausted. If Lebron wins his 4th title after this season then they can say he is the goat, and they are right. Of ourse nba basketball isnt a “game” as such, more of a “sport”, however Lebron goat.... ok. I never fully bought in to the Jordan thing really that seemed even more scripted to me. Billions of dollars we are not going to leave things to the random bounce of a basketball right? But yeah, Lebron wins the title, head to head vs Harden, then he can go to any team and legend / image not affected at all

  7. #307
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    alright, I gotta take back some of what I said up there. If not most of the actual substance, then at least the pessimistic snark I was putting forth.

    The two game sixes I thought were both more or less perfectly refereed. In retrospect the game 5's were reasonably well officiated also, but I thought these two game 6s were absolute gems of perfect officiating.

    It is quite amazing that this kind of confluence of game 7s can happen organically but it did. That you can have two mega-stars (Lebron and Curry) spectacularly lifting their teams from adversity and it is just highlight after highlight after highlight. And you wind up with two "heel" teams (Brad Stevens and Keith Smart stomping on feet in the lane and cheapshotting all over the place, CP3 tripping and elbowing people in the nads while his moody skulking bearded teammate Harden flops and glowers, shamelessly exploiting the rules while failing to make shots in the clutch) going against two very likeable good guy teams, the home team Cavs coming together at the right time and showing teamwork and spunky optimism, led by the goat Lebron, and the Warriors, led by the transcendent golden child Steph Curry, who seems to have a bottomless reservoir of basketball magic and gets continually better as the pressure of the game approaches its theoretical limit

    Just the fact that you can throw all these characters and teams into a big tournament and out of that rises (again) these magnificent superstars is just amazing, an undeniable affirmation of the greatness and value of the NBA

    It was great in game 6 that the refs were intelligent and aware and did not just act like automatons or bots who could be fooled by Harden's fake foul tactics, and that ultimately it was left to the teams to make their shots or not. Bravo to the NBA

  8. #308
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    https://youtu.be/aYveyAb6mvU

    I'm not claiming rigged. I'm just saying, I wish calls were better.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Htownballa1622 View Post
    https://youtu.be/aYveyAb6mvU

    I'm not claiming rigged. I'm just saying, I wish calls were better.
    I’m claiming rigged, nba players, the announcers, were all talking about the missed calls.

    Opens the door for LeBron though
    Don’t forget to smile today, they’re contagious!!!


  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaDe03 View Post
    I’m claiming rigged, nba players, the announcers, were all talking about the missed calls.

    Opens the door for LeBron though
    I just don't see how Rockets wouldn't cry wolf. Morey, Harden, owners, SOMEONE would cry wolf. I think more of just incompetence by Foster and Callahan.

    Lebron is our last hope.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Htownballa1622 View Post
    https://youtu.be/aYveyAb6mvU

    I'm not claiming rigged. I'm just saying, I wish calls were better.
    It's rigged to a degree.

    Also I can't stand the Harden and Durant arm swinging to draw 3 free throws, but if you're going to call it don't pick and choose the calls. Call it consistently.

    The one that got me the most is not calling the moving screen on Bell (who's a rookie mind you).
    That allowed Curry to really get it going in that 3rd quarter and had yuge implications on the result. That just can't happen.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandsOnTheWheel View Post
    It's rigged to a degree.

    Also I can't stand the Harden and Durant arm swinging to draw 3 free throws, but if you're going to call it don't pick and choose the calls. Call it consistently.

    The one that got me the most is not calling the moving screen on Bell (who's a rookie mind you).
    That allowed Curry to really get it going in that 3rd quarter and had yuge implications on the result. That just can't happen.
    I'd call it "influenced."

    Yes, that box out moving screen at 20 feet from the basket was terrible. At least Bell has that on film if he ever wants to be a linemen in NFL.

  13. #313
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    The flopping needs to stop. refs gotta stop calling it. 90% of the time the flop is horrible, bad acting etc... yet refs still call it.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

  14. #314
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    I think those were fouls, but I'd rather they call it the way they did rather than the way they have been. The shot where the intent is to draw a foul shouldn't be called. If the offensive player creates the contact anywhere then there should be no foul called on the defender. And in the playoffs, that is not a new trend.

  15. #315
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    The moving screen is a result of a poorly written rule and Harden wrapping Bell up. That isn't even called most of the time in the regular season.

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