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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Obviously Chip Kelly gutting the offense was all part of the plan to bring in Wentz.

    Hey, I'm an Eagles fan, so I'm not going to argue the team doesn't have talent on offense or that the coaching staff hasn't done a good job. But you've got to be completely ignoring the accolades the 2016 Cowboys coaches and offensive players have received to even bring up that argument in a comparison between the two QBs.
    I'm not denying the Eagles have a good foundation but like you said, he's completely ignoring what Dallas has. I can't even grasp that. How can that even be a thought, honestly?

    Last year Bryant wasn't even 100% so now he has even more in the arsenal. The line isn't as good, but it's still a top line and they built the entirety out of the draft, same with their entire offense basically. It was one of the most efficient offenses last season with not much of a change. Nope, Dak has to do it all by himself with crap he was given. For real?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  2. #47
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    He thinks I'm defending the Eagles QB Carson Wentz because of my user name. How shocked would Lionel be if he knew that "QB Eagles" was Randall Cunningham's name in Tecmo Super Bowl, hence the avatar?

  3. #48
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    #WhiteQBLivesDontMatter

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    He thinks I'm defending the Eagles QB Carson Wentz because of my user name. How shocked would Lionel be if he knew that "QB Eagles" was Randall Cunningham's name in Tecmo Super Bowl, hence the avatar?
    But you knew when you created it Tustin in October 2017 that bias would come in handy. Sneaky fox you.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    At this point in time I think it's very hard to argue that Dak is better than Wentz.
    It's really not dude,

    At this point both QB's still have a great deal to prove. But I'm much more confident in what I'm going to get from Prescott than Wentz or Goff. Any that's doesn't see that is just prisoner of the moment as far as I'm concerned.

    Prescott's o-line was phenomenal last years. This year the only blockers performing at an elite level is Zach Martin. Last week against the 49ers was really the first time this year I saw Prescott in the pocket with as much time as he had last year... but it was against a win-less team. But Prescott's been elite again, on top of a full season of elite play.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    He thinks I'm defending the Eagles QB Carson Wentz because of my user name. How shocked would Lionel be if he knew that "QB Eagles" was Randall Cunningham's name in Tecmo Super Bowl, hence the avatar?
    Lololol

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Can you please explain that when last season and even coming into this season the Cowboys had a top oline and arguably the best RB/running game in the NFL with a still top 20ish WR isn't helping Dak out?

    You're being quite a hypocrite here.

    And Luck has 0 help on offense, since when did that franchise help him? The WR are ok but the running game and oline is garbage.

    Dak and Wilson have had tremendous running games their careers so far outside the last two for Wilson.

    You'll be hardpressed to win an argument that Wentz and Luck have had their teams build better offenses around them than at least Dak. Wilson is arguable but for the majority of his offense was built on a good line and running game too.
    I'm not saying that it doesn't help Prescott. I'm saying that anyone acting like having those pieces around is enough to make up the gap between he and Wentz career numbers are flat wrong. And that's my point in this post, first, look at what Prescott is doing this year with an O-line performing worse than last year, and second I'm taking a page from the Wilson-Luck debate, and I'm suggesting that Prescott will be as good or better without Elliot. Russell Wilson's performance has been better without Lynch, and Prescott will have an offense tailor more so around him (like Wentz and Luck) without Elliott.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    #WhiteQBLivesDontMatter


    Who's the best qb on this list:

    Joe montana
    Peyton manning
    Brett favre
    Tom brady
    Steve Young
    Cam Newton
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Johnny Unitas


    Put them in a room side by side with each other.. Who do you pick?

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I'm not saying that it doesn't help Prescott. I'm saying that anyone acting like having those pieces around is enough to make up the gap between he and Wentz career numbers are flat wrong. And that's my point in this post, first, look at what Prescott is doing this year with an O-line performing worse than last year, and second I'm taking a page from the Wilson-Luck debate, and I'm suggesting that Prescott will be as good or better without Elliot. Russell Wilson's performance has been better without Lynch, and Prescott will have an offense tailor more so around him (like Wentz and Luck) without Elliott.
    And his 3 best games were against the 25th, 30th, and 31st ranked defenses according to PFR. 21st, 25th, and 27th ranked passing defenses. He struggled against the 3rd ranked passing defense. For reference, Wentz' 3 best games have been against the 7th, 14th (Without Norman though), and 25th ranked pass defenses.

    You literally said that Luck and Wentz franchises built the teams and have the freedom to work within the offense. What you're doing is building a narrative that Wilson and Prescott DO NOT have that luxury, when in fact they have. You're discrediting Wentz offensive help when Prescott has the same if not better. Even if Prescott's help isn't better (with the line not being as good) it's absolutely not worse than what Wentz has.

    Also: We do not know what Prescott is like without Elliot at all. We do know a little bit how Wentz was without Lane last year but it's not indicative of what he will be like without Peters this season. So you're using what you think will happen when/if Elliot is suspended when you have no idea. I feel safe in saying that even though Elliot isn't as good this year (he's still a top RB by the way) he's still a threat. I'm not discrediting what Dak's doing at all. I'm just saying that his offense isn't much different than last season and you're seeing him turn the ball over a little more but score a little more too, his comp% and Y/A are down this year though. Carson on the other hand is seeing an increase in numbers when his offense got better (having Lane). The slight downtick in offense for Dak doesn't bridge the gap as far as you want it to.
    Last edited by koldjerky; 10-26-2017 at 05:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    It's really not dude,

    At this point both QB's still have a great deal to prove. But I'm much more confident in what I'm going to get from Prescott than Wentz or Goff. Any that's doesn't see that is just prisoner of the moment as far as I'm concerned.

    Prescott's o-line was phenomenal last years. This year the only blockers performing at an elite level is Zach Martin. Last week against the 49ers was really the first time this year I saw Prescott in the pocket with as much time as he had last year... but it was against a win-less team. But Prescott's been elite again, on top of a full season of elite play.
    Prescott still feeds off Zeke dude. Wentz is the engine of the Eagles whereas Zeke is the engine of the Cowboys. It was the same with Luck and Wilson. Luck controls the team and Wilson has the most success when he played second fiddle to the running game.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Prescott still feeds off Zeke dude. Wentz is the engine of the Eagles whereas Zeke is the engine of the Cowboys. It was the same with Luck and Wilson. Luck controls the team and Wilson has the most success when he played second fiddle to the running game.
    Yep

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydubb View Post
    Who's the best qb on this list:

    Joe montana
    Peyton manning
    Brett favre
    Tom brady
    Steve Young
    Cam Newton
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Johnny Unitas


    Put them in a room side by side with each other.. Who do you pick?

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    Are the lights off?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Luck has a great franchise around him? How can anyone defend that statement?
    I think when he said that he was referring to the great coaches Luck has had with the Colts offense, such as Pep Hamilton, Alfredo Roberts, David Walker, and Lee Hull. Not sure if current WR coach Sanjay Lal counts.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 10-26-2017 at 05:52 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Indeed, I wear my bias on my sleeve.

    I'm also not pretending I'm an objective evaluator of QBs.


    If you actually watched football you would have noticed Wentz scrambling a lot more by the end of last season. It was also reported that the coaches wanted to harness this ability for most of his rookie season so he doesn't develop bad habits. It's almost like stats don't tell the whole story.


    And why do plays break down? Nothing to do with the OL, I suppose.


    Your argument was that Wilson started to have elite passing stats in Lynch's absence, so the years 2012-2014 are irrelevant.


    Name a year under Wilson where the Seahawks defense wasn't at least 3rd best in points and 5th best in yards.


    The point is that his "elite level of play" only shows up on the stat sheet, not in terms of team success. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You talk about Wilson's win-loss-record when he didn't have elite stats, but talk about his elite stats when the team isn't as successful.


    There is statistical evidence. As I said, the play action pass is the statistically most successful passing play in football. It greatly increases the accuracy of whoever QB is throwing it, too. Similarly, a team's tendency to call pass plays increases when down in points and decreases when in the lead, both especially late in games. You simply choose to ignore that evidence.
    Russell Wilson's highest comp% by far in a season was during a season where Lynch missed the majority of it -- 2015. He's been better without Lynch. My argument after studying both players is that Prescott will turn up the same way without Elliott.

    Trevor Siemian has elite stats when he's playing with the lead.


    That's irrelevant though, because you obviously don't factor offensive scheme and play calling into your evaluation of Wilson. Else you wouldn't denigrate Lynch's influence on the Seahawks offense all the time, or twist Wilson's run option plays into his favor.


    How exactly have the Cowboys not built a team around Prescott, when he has the 2016 Coach of the Year, three 2016 All-Pros on the OL, a 2016 All-Pro RB, a 2014 All-Pro WR and a 2012 All-Pro TE?

    The Seahawks have certainly tried to build a team around Wilson, it's just that pretty much all of the high draft picks they have invested into the offense have failed. Meanwhile his defense is filled with All-Pros.

    The idea that Luck has a great team and coaching staff around him is laughable.
    I'm not talking about talent. I'm talking about scheme -- scheme has to do with how you utilize your talent. The Cowboys, especially last year, are a run-first team much like the Seahawks with Lynch.

    The Colts under Luck were pass-happy, the Eagles philosophy is more so balanced this year. But it's built more around the QB than the Cowboys offense. So Wentz and even more so Luck are going to have more opportunities to build up stats -- whether scrambles/pass attempts.

    So what's your problem then, if you're not hearing Wentz is better than Prescott? He's certainly is better this year in all of the things you praise Wilson for: team record, "elite passing stats", scrambling ability. So that's why you now have to start bringing in OL, scheme and coaching to make the stats fit your biased opinion, while obviously ignoring to update your past evaluations with all those factors. Sad.
    Is Alex Smith better than Tom Brady? Who would say that? Of course, if there careers began Week 1, that'd be an actually debate. Most people would expect for Brady to finish the season stronger than Alex Smith because of body of work. Brady has proven to be more consistent. Well, I apply that thinking to every situation. Even with a limited body of work, Prescott has proven far more consistent than Wentz at this point in their careers. He's better. I have no idea why that is a difficult concept to digest, except that you just don't want it to be true.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I think when he said that he was referring to the great coaches Luck has had with the Colts offense, such as Pep Hamilton, Alfredo Roberts, David Walker, and Lee Hull. Not sure if current WR coach Sanjay Lal counts.
    This went over my head for a few seconds

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