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  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    This is still such a dumb argument. War and Flash have both said that Harden is deserving of the MVP.....but Lebron is still the better player. It's not about who's better. Or who's been better in years past. Or all time rankings or whatever. The award is for who has been the most valuable in these 82 games. Looking at the records, the stats, the impact........Christ Almighty.


    It's like a food critic visiting a new restaurant and trying 5 dishes to see what he likes best there. "The Beef Strogonov is definitely the best dish here but I'm going to vote for the Chicken Fried Steak because that's my favorite dish of all time. It's not on the level of their Beef Strogonov here but one could make the argument....."


    "Oh man, The Foo Fighters were the best band hands down at this festival but I'm going to vote for The Rolling Stones even though they had an off-performance. What can I say? They're the Greatest Rock 'N Roll Band in the world."

    "The new Jaguar is the best car I've driven out of all of them and definitely deserves my vote for Car of the Year as it did basically everything better than the rest including the Bentley. But I'm voting for the Bentley because it's a ****ing Bentley."
    I said LeBron is the most "valuable" to a team. What does Harden do better than LeBron besides the FT? If both teams played today, you're not asking yourself, "Wow, Harden is the MVP." You're asking yourself, "Wow, Rockets are just a better team." There is never a question of who is more valuable to their team when they play vs LeBron because it will always be LeBron.

  2. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    I said LeBron is the most "valuable" to a team.
    And Harden is the most "valuable" to the league this year.

    What does Harden do better than LeBron besides the FT?
    This year (which is what we're talking about)? Scoring, threes, leading his team..... Most everything looks pretty similar until you watch the games. Harden is 2nd in the league in plus/minus. Lebron is 7th........on the Cavaliers. 537 to 53.

    If both teams played today, you're not asking yourself, "Wow, Harden is the MVP." You're asking yourself, "Wow, Rockets are just a better team." There is never a question of who is more valuable to their team when they play vs LeBron because it will always be LeBron.
    In a game? Sure. Over the course of a season? Nope. Not this year and not every year.


    Others have said Kershaw is the Lebron of baseball and it was argued and Brady and Rodgers are the Lebron of the NFL (no idea how two different guys can be on Lebron's level in the same league) and it was laughed at. No one is saying that Lebron isn't the best basketball player alive. But this isn't the "best basketball player alive" award. It's the most valuable player of the year award. And no one has been more valuable this year in the NBA than James Harden. YOU EVEN AGREE YET YOU STILL ****ING ARGUE.

    And don't forget, Lebron has no one to blame but himself for Kyrie leaving, TT and JR being waaaay overpaid and being untradeable. I love Lebron, but his passive aggressiveness, unwillingness to commit (that Nets pick could've been flipped for someone or Kyrie might've stayed instead of bolting when he saw the potential writing on the wall), making his bros get untradable deals..... Don't blame his team's woes on anyone but him.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 04-04-2018 at 03:58 AM.

  3. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    And Harden is the most "valuable" to the league this year.



    This year (which is what we're talking about)? Scoring, threes, leading his team..... Most everything looks pretty similar until you watch the games. Harden is 2nd in the league in plus/minus. Lebron is 7th........on the Cavaliers. 537 to 53.



    In a game? Sure. Over the course of a season? Nope. Not this year and not every year.


    Others have said Kershaw is the Lebron of baseball and it was argued and Brady and Rodgers are the Lebron of the NFL (no idea how two different guys can be on Lebron's level in the same league) and it was laughed at. No one is saying that Lebron isn't the best basketball player alive. But this isn't the "best basketball player alive" award. It's the most valuable player of the year award. And no one has been more valuable this year in the NBA than James Harden. YOU EVEN AGREE YET YOU STILL ****ING ARGUE.

    And don't forget, Lebron has no one to blame but himself for Kyrie leaving, TT and JR being waaaay overpaid and being untradeable. I love Lebron, but his passive aggressiveness, unwillingness to commit (that Nets pick could've been flipped for someone or Kyrie might've stayed instead of bolting when he saw the potential writing on the wall), making his bros get untradable deals..... Don't blame his team's woes on anyone but him.
    1) His team woes has nothing to do with his teammates performing bad. Kyrie didn't leave because of LeBron, TT and J.R. being overpaid doesn't mean they aren't performing to their ability. What happens outside of basketball is not indicative of LeBron's performances.
    2) Harden isn't the most valuable to the league. That's LeBron. Might be a typo from your end.
    3) Same TS%. Unless you're talking about scoring from three, sure. But scoring in general has been a wash. Leading his team? Lol, no. Harden's biggest problem was being a leader. Just because his team has more wins doesn't mean he's a better leader. +/- is highly dependent on teammates. Are you suggesting LeBron should play less? Otherwise your +/- argument doesn't prove actual impact. Without LeBron, they are losing by MUCH more. Everyone's +/- drops without LeBron.
    4) I'm arguing what Scott Brooks is arguing: Harden is the MVP but LeBron can win it every year as well. How is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Did I once say Harden didn't deserve MVP? No. My entire arguments have been that LeBron is the MVP if I had to vote for it because all things being considered, his teammates aren't as good and they lost Kyrie for Jae Crowder and LeBron leads his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Rockets got CP3. Look at the turnover from Cleveland. You can't fault LeBron for IT, J.R., TT, and Crowder just playing bad. IT is still playing bad. Look what happened to him. Crowder can't shoot for hell in or out of Cleveland. J.R. was ranked as a bottom 30 NBA player just few months ago. TT hasn't been doing anything. Then couple that with injuries.. When did did make the trades, Love, Nance, Korver, Hood, Cedi, and now Hill are out.
    5) I'm not blaming his team's woes on anyone other than the player's themselves. They have a responsibility to play and perform at a high ability. LeBron can't force them to play better but he can help them.

    And why is it over a game, you think LeBron is more valuable? DING DING DING. Because LeBron just flat-out is. Take LeBron out of the equation for a second. Both guys play the same style of basketball, right? I mean, outside of FT's and threes, they're basically identical in how the system is used. Cavs better or worse with Harden instead of Bron? Houston better or worse with Bron instead of Harden? Listen, it's LeBron. Don't think hard about it because you know it's LeBron.

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    1) His team woes has nothing to do with his teammates performing bad.
    Uhhhhh, what?

    Kyrie didn't leave because of LeBron,
    He absolutely did.

    TT and J.R. being overpaid doesn't mean they aren't performing to their ability.
    Uhhhhhh, what?

    What happens outside of basketball is not indicative of LeBron's performances.
    Wait, huh? What are you talking about? Those other two "uhhhhh, whats" were to point out how silly those statements were. This "wait, huh" is wondering what the heck you're talking about.

    2) Harden isn't the most valuable to the league. That's LeBron. Might be a typo from your end.
    It wasn't. This year, Harden is the most valuable. You yourself have agreed to this.

    3) Same TS%. Unless you're talking about scoring from three, sure. But scoring in general has been a wash.
    And with all of his new (and returning) teammates, Harden has been beasting and not sitting 4th quarters. He's had games that he's just flat out taken over and they definitely would've lost if he didn't go clutch. Lebron has had his buddies play like **** or be injured and others not stepping up. He's basically sorta this years '16-'17 RWB.

    Leading his team? Lol, no. Harden's biggest problem was being a leader.
    HOW ARE YOU STILL NOT GRASPING THAT THIS IS AN AWARD FOR THE 2017-2018 REGULAR SEASON? He's looked like a hell of a leader this year. Previous years? Last year's postseason? This upcoming postseason? None of that matters for this season's MVP award. Damn, son.

    Just because his team has more wins doesn't mean he's a better leader. +/- is highly dependent on teammates. Are you suggesting LeBron should play less? Otherwise your +/- argument doesn't prove actual impact. Without LeBron, they are losing by MUCH more.
    I'm suggesting that the Rockets have been dominating (even with multiple injuries to multiple guys) and Harden is the biggest reason. If Lebron's +/- was great and his teammates were bad, you'd have a point but he hasn't been making these guys better.

    Everyone's +/- drops without LeBron.
    Except for the 6 teammates of his that have better +/- than he does this year.

    4) I'm arguing what Scott Brooks is arguing: Harden is the MVP but LeBron can win it every year as well. How is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
    When he's not the MVP, he shouldn't win the MVP. This year, he's not the MVP.

    Did I once say Harden didn't deserve MVP? No.
    Actually......

    My entire arguments have been that LeBron is the MVP if I had to vote for it
    You just did.

    because all things being considered, his teammates aren't as good and they lost Kyrie for Jae Crowder
    That's not exactly the entire picture there, hoss.

    and LeBron leads his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
    Which makes sense because "his teammates aren't as good"

    Rockets got CP3. Look at the turnover from Cleveland.
    Rockets lost a lot of depth in the trade for CP3, too.

    You can't fault LeBron for IT, J.R., TT, and Crowder just playing bad.
    But you sorta can. No one was going to pay TT and JR that kind of money and he forced Gilbert to pay up. IT was injured and he might never be the same. He didn't fit the Cavs' lockerroom so he got shown the door.....but Lebron runs his lockeroom a little differently than other teams Kyrie didn't leave for no reason.

    IT is still playing bad.
    He's actually not playing at all.

    Look what happened to him. Crowder can't shoot for hell in or out of Cleveland.
    Crowder was playing pretty well in Boston. Lebron helps some players and others don't thrive on a team with him. Have you still not figured this out by now?

    J.R. was ranked as a bottom 30 NBA player just few months ago.
    Who insisted on him getting that crazy contract?

    TT hasn't been doing anything.
    And who insisted on TT's?

    Then couple that with injuries.. When did did make the trades, Love, Nance, Korver, Hood, Cedi, and now Hill are out.
    Injuries are a hell of a thing. Just ask any Rockets fan in the 2000's/early 2010's.

    5) I'm not blaming his team's woes on anyone other than the player's themselves.
    And injuries?

    They have a responsibility to play and perform at a high ability.
    When not injured. Also, a few of these guys seem to have lost the desire after they won a few years back. They got a ring and they got paid. I don't blame Kyrie for jumping ship.

    LeBron can't force them to play better but he can help them.
    He doesn't always help them. He can almost be like the anti-Pop at times.

    And why is it over a game, you think LeBron is more valuable? DING DING DING. Because LeBron just flat-out is.
    But again, it's not a "Who's flat out better" award? Because "all things being considered" (your words), Harden has been better THIS YEAR.

    Take LeBron out of the equation for a second. Both guys play the same style of basketball, right? I mean, outside of FT's and threes, they're basically identical in how the system is used. Cavs better or worse with Harden instead of Bron? Houston better or worse with Bron instead of Harden? Listen, it's LeBron. Don't think hard about it because you know it's LeBron.
    Again, it's not the "Better Fit" award. It's not the "Better Player" award. It's the 2017-2018 MVP award. And it'll go to James Harden.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 04-04-2018 at 08:01 AM.

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    This is still such a dumb argument. War and Flash have both said that Harden is deserving of the MVP.....but Lebron is still the better player. It's not about who's better. Or who's been better in years past. Or all time rankings or whatever. The award is for who has been the most valuable in these 82 games. Looking at the records, the stats, the impact........Christ Almighty.


    It's like a food critic visiting a new restaurant and trying 5 dishes to see what he likes best there. "The Beef Strogonov is definitely the best dish here but I'm going to vote for the Chicken Fried Steak because that's my favorite dish of all time. It's not on the level of their Beef Strogonov here but one could make the argument....."


    "Oh man, The Foo Fighters were the best band hands down at this festival but I'm going to vote for The Rolling Stones even though they had an off-performance. What can I say? They're the Greatest Rock 'N Roll Band in the world."

    "The new Jaguar is the best car I've driven out of all of them and definitely deserves my vote for Car of the Year as it did basically everything better than the rest including the Bentley. But I'm voting for the Bentley because it's a ****ing Bentley."
    So Scott Brooks is dumb?

    PROCESSING

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Uhhhhh, what?



    He absolutely did.



    Uhhhhhh, what?



    Wait, huh? What are you talking about? Those other two "uhhhhh, whats" were to point out how silly those statements were. This "wait, huh" is wondering what the heck you're talking about.



    It wasn't. This year, Harden is the most valuable. You yourself have agreed to this.



    And with all of his new (and returning) teammates, Harden has been beasting and not sitting 4th quarters. He's had games that he's just flat out taken over and they definitely would've lost if he didn't go clutch. Lebron has had his buddies play like **** or be injured and others not stepping up. He's basically sorta this years '16-'17 RWB.



    HOW ARE YOU STILL NOT GRASPING THAT THIS IS AN AWARD FOR THE 2017-2018 REGULAR SEASON? He's looked like a hell of a leader this year. Previous years? Last year's postseason? This upcoming postseason? None of that matters for this season's MVP award. Damn, son.



    I'm suggesting that the Rockets have been dominating (even with multiple injuries to multiple guys) and Harden is the biggest reason. If Lebron's +/- was great and his teammates were bad, you'd have a point but he hasn't been making these guys better.



    Except for the 6 teammates of his that have better +/- than he does this year.



    When he's not the MVP, he shouldn't win the MVP. This year, he's not the MVP.



    Actually......



    You just did.



    That's not exactly the entire picture there, hoss.



    Which makes sense because "his teammates aren't as good"



    Rockets lost a lot of depth in the trade for CP3, too.



    But you sorta can. No one was going to pay TT and JR that kind of money and he forced Gilbert to pay up. IT was injured and he might never be the same. He didn't fit the Cavs' lockerroom so he got shown the door.....but Lebron runs his lockeroom a little differently than other teams Kyrie didn't leave for no reason.



    He's actually not playing at all.



    Crowder was playing pretty well in Boston. Lebron helps some players and others don't thrive on a team with him. Have you still not figured this out by now?



    Who insisted on him getting that crazy contract?



    And who insisted on TT's?



    Injuries are a hell of a thing. Just ask any Rockets fan in the 2000's/early 2010's.



    And injuries?



    When not injured. Also, a few of these guys seem to have lost the desire after they won a few years back. They got a ring and they got paid. I don't blame Kyrie for jumping ship.



    He doesn't always help them. He can almost be like the anti-Pop at times.



    But again, it's not a "Who's flat out better" award? Because "all things being considered" (your words), Harden has been better THIS YEAR.



    Again, it's not the "Better Fit" award. It's not the "Better Player" award. It's the 2017-2018 MVP award. And it'll go to James Harden.
    Dude, stop trolling. You and I both know you're a huge LeBron fan. It seems you're dumbing down your support for him to boost Harden here.

    1) You have no idea why Kyrie left. It was reported what ticked him off was Cavs tried trading him and Kyrie found out.
    2) Ryan Anderson is overpaid. How many underpaid players are on the Rockets? Many. And yet they perform to or above their abilities. Their pay is irrelevant right now. Can they play and are they performing to the best of their abilities? That's the bigger question.
    3) Read your reply. You said Harden is the most valuable player to the league. How is that even true? It's a typo from your end. You meant Harden is the most valuable player IN the league. There is no scenario where Harden>LeBron to the NBA.
    4) LeBron plays the most minutes. You think the guy is sitting there getting free wins? LeBron has been probably the most clutch player in the league so far. Pull up the stats. I want you to see it for yourself.
    5) +/- is based on lineups. If LeBron's playing with teammates who aren't performing well, his +/- suffers. You know what you're talking about so don't pretend that this stuff is new to you.
    6) Why can't both players deserve it? You make it seem as if one guy is significantly outperforming the other and Harden is therefore on a league of his own. What type of value are you seriously awarding to Harden that makes him far superior to everyone else? This isn't a 2015-2016 Steph Curry season where any answer not being Curry is just wrong.
    7) Lost a lot of depth? Lmao. Those guys were all replaceable. Lou Williams played terribly for you guys and CP3>Bev. Who? Sam Dekker? Explain the depth that you guys lost that wasn't significantly improved with CP3 as well?
    8) IT isn't playing bad? Wtf are you saying. Do your research. The guy isn't even PLAYING anymore because his hip is still fcked up.
    9) Crowder played well in Boston. Actually, Boston is playing well without Kyrie, Hayward, IT and they have a guy in Rosier who looks like he could drop 30 on any team. Crowder sucks in the Jazz as well. Have you not realized that his roster has been injured, replaced twice, and he's still able to hold the team together?
    10) Bad contracts, good contracts. That doesn't matter for this season, remember? It's THIS season.. like you've said ten times already.
    11) Stop responding just to respond. This isn't some "who has the snarkiest reply" competition. How has Harden been more valuable? If you say wins, I'll point to his team being better (which you won't deny). If you say stats, show me them. Which stats show Harden is decisively better? If you say +/-, you automatically lost because that's a team dependent stat. Both players deserve it, okay? You just seem to be a Rockets fan who also likes LeBron and your responses are so poor that it shows.. you want to say LeBron at times but you won't because you're a Rockets fan. That's fine. I'm a LeBron fan. And I also know that the value of an individual player is also contributed by the value of his teammates. And right now, the value of Harden's teammates is a large reason why he deserves the MVP.

  7. #982
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    Wow back to “poor LeBron”.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Best performing in a season doesn't make you the best player. LeBron is the best player and that inherently, makes him the most valuable.
    I've been over this a million times already. Nobody's saying that Lebron isn't the best player, but that doesn't mean that you deserve the MVP every season. That logic makes no sense. Giving a player an MVP for a regular season based on production and performance from previous seasons is completely insane. What if Lebron had missed half the season due to injury or what if his team won 30 games? Based on your logic, as long as he's still relatively productive, he still deserves the award. Totally nonsensical...

    If I'm voting based on their criteria, of course Harden is the MVP. If I'm voting based on who I believe is more valuable to their team, I'm going with LeBron. And my guess is if you flat out ask a random basketball fan who is the most valuable player to their team, your answer would be LeBron. But really, the NBA hasn't been using that as their definition for decades so you guys are right.. it's a moot point.
    Then maybe quit taking the word "valuable" so damn literally and start looking at what the award is actually supposed to mean. If you're not the best player over the course of the regular season you're being judged on for the award, then you don't deserve the award. From Oct. 17 until now, Harden has been better than Lebron, Harden's numbers have been better and Harden's team has been better. In the sample size of this season, Harden is better. Therefore he deserves the award.

    The MVP shouldn't be an honorary award given to a player based on previous production. It should be given to the guy who did the most in that given season. Why this is so hard for some people to understand just blows my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  9. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    11) Stop responding just to respond. This isn't some "who has the snarkiest reply" competition. How has Harden been more valuable? If you say wins, I'll point to his team being better (which you won't deny). If you say stats, show me them. Which stats show Harden is decisively better? If you say +/-, you automatically lost because that's a team dependent stat. Both players deserve it, okay? You just seem to be a Rockets fan who also likes LeBron and your responses are so poor that it shows.. you want to say LeBron at times but you won't because you're a Rockets fan. That's fine. I'm a LeBron fan. And I also know that the value of an individual player is also contributed by the value of his teammates. And right now, the value of Harden's teammates is a large reason why he deserves the MVP.
    I'm glad you asked. Below I've bolded the player with that statistical advantage in each category.

    Harden: 30.7 points, 8.8 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 1.8 steals with a 61.9% TS%, 44.8% AST%, 30.1 PER, .294 WS/48, 11.1 BPM, 121 ORtg and 105 DRtg
    Lebron: 27.4 points, 9.1 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 1.4 steals with a 62% TS%, 44% AST%, 28.5 PER, .222 WS/48, 9.7 BPM, 118 ORtg and 109 DRtg

    So basically Harden owns Lebron in every significant noncumulative advanced statistic. In terms of basic stats, Lebron has the obvious edge in rebounding and a slight edge in assists per game, but Harden is playing fewer minutes and still boasts the higher AST%. They're nearly identical in scoring efficiency with Lebron boasting a 0.1% advantage.

    Statistically, Harden has clearly had the superior season. I'm not sure what case could be made to prove otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  10. #985
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    I can't wait until the year is over so Harden can win his mvp(2nd deserved one) and then Lebron could just come on down to Htown

    Also, I hope Westbrook averages his triple double this year. That'd be ironic. Better teammates. Same numbers. Same record.

    Also, I'd love to see Kawhi shipped East

  11. #986
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    BTW

    I read this on another forum from someone with ties inside the league.

    "Heard the rift was caused by the Spurs approaching Kawhi about signing a 'hometown discount' contract, but that they are fully prepared to offer him the max to keep him around. I would not be shocked if he was traded, but I also think it's something that will go away once he gets back on the court."

    No more "hometown discounts" Spurs

  12. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Htownballa1622 View Post
    BTW

    I read this on another forum from someone with ties inside the league.

    "Heard the rift was caused by the Spurs approaching Kawhi about signing a 'hometown discount' contract, but that they are fully prepared to offer him the max to keep him around. I would not be shocked if he was traded, but I also think it's something that will go away once he gets back on the court."

    No more "hometown discounts" Spurs
    That feels like a mistake on the part of the Spurs' front office. The one major advantage they have is the ability to offer way more money than other, larger markets. Kawhi is a top 5 caliber player in the league. You do everything in your power to keep that guy, not insult him by asking him to take a discount. I still think he probably ends up staying in San Antonio, but if there's any truth to that, then this could go down as a pretty colossal failure on their end.

    Quote Originally Posted by numba1CHANGsta View Post
    Just trust me, Hou wont make it all the way to the WCF 😉
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Houston may make the WCF again, but barring injuries they are no longer a serious threat this year imo.

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    That feels like a mistake on the part of the Spurs' front office. The one major advantage they have is the ability to offer way more money than other, larger markets. Kawhi is a top 5 caliber player in the league. You do everything in your power to keep that guy, not insult him by asking him to take a discount. I still think he probably ends up staying in San Antonio, but if there's any truth to that, then this could go down as a pretty colossal failure on their end.
    They've benefitted from guys taking team friendly deals for a while now.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

  14. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdspurman View Post
    Is it possible maybe you're just more invested in it because it's Harden? Because 2 people have already agreed with what I said, cause it's really not that uncommon. If I have time I'll go back and look, but every year during the MVP we have the discussion on what the "right" MVP criteria is. Is it best player in the league? Or the guy who's had the best year? Best player on the team w/best record? etc...

    Every year Lebron hasn't won it, people make the argument well he's the best in the world but voters get bored of voting the same person. Same with COTY, people always acknowledge Pop as the best coach, but know he won't get it every year. It doesn't mean whoever won COTY wasn't deserving.
    Exactly right.

  15. #990
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    BD should shut Carmelo down now....let him rest, get his mind right for the playoffs. OKC need Melo to be old melo one more time for these playoffs. He's definitely on his last max contract.

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