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  1. #2611
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    There was a great article in Yardbarker I believe call Max Money Middleton saying that the Bucks would be stupid not to sign Middleton to a Max deal, because even if we let him walk, we'll have no money to replace him. I disagree with offering him a Max and feel that everyone needs to take a little less in an effort to try to keep the team together as much as possible. A max contract starts at about $32 Mil in year 1 and about $40 Mil in year 4. I'd offer Middleton a contract starting at about $28 Mil and ending at say $34 Mil in year 4. That would leave roughly $8 Mil on the MLE for Lopez and about $32 Mil for Bledsoe, Brogdon and league min's for remaining players and 2 ways.

  2. #2612
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    There was a great article in Yardbarker I believe call Max Money Middleton saying that the Bucks would be stupid not to sign Middleton to a Max deal, because even if we let him walk, we'll have no money to replace him. I disagree with offering him a Max and feel that everyone needs to take a little less in an effort to try to keep the team together as much as possible. A max contract starts at about $32 Mil in year 1 and about $40 Mil in year 4. I'd offer Middleton a contract starting at about $28 Mil and ending at say $34 Mil in year 4. That would leave roughly $8 Mil on the MLE for Lopez and about $32 Mil for Bledsoe, Brogdon and league min's for remaining players and 2 ways.
    Agree with the bolded part. Giannis took less on his contract extension with 4-100. He will be expecting others to do the same starting with Middleton. It will be very interesting to see what the Bucks do after the season. I think 1 or 2 FAs will be gone. I hope Bledsoe realizes this is the best he's ever played and he fits Bud's system well when he's attacking and doing less as the third option. I think Lopez is replaceable if he is going to get big deal with a Dedmon-type who also spaces the floor maybe with a slight dip in some areas.

  3. #2613
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    Should the Bucks consider kicking the tires on Ray Allen for a possible post season run?

  4. #2614
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    I don't think I'd go more than 4/100 for Middleton, Honestly I think he is barely worth more than 20 but in efforts to keep this core together I'd go up to 25. If someone is willing to go to 30 for him I'd let him walk and look at other options. From a talent prospective I'd look at some other guys over Middleton, but risking chemistry would be a big risk. DeMarcus Cousins is someone I have really been thinking about, it seems like he has done everything right over the past year and is working with the Warriors as a secondary option. I think if someone goes nuts and pays Middleton max money I would try and get Cousins and upgrade the center position and then find a couple wing options to replace Middleton.

    I think for me re-signing Brogdon would be still my 1st mission and not letting someone else go nuts and overpay on him forcing us to make hard decisions down the road. Spencer Dinwiddie got 3/34 earlier in the year and has been pretty comparable. I'd try and take care of that before the end of the year and have a clearer picture. I'd also look into seeing if Hill will take a low veteran contract 1/2-4 just for depth if we lose Bledsoe.

    I'd ask on Ray but I can't see him playing much unless injuries. He would be great vet leadership like Terry was the last couple years. He looked great in the Celebrity Game, not that that means much.

  5. #2615
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay87shot View Post
    I don't think I'd go more than 4/100 for Middleton, Honestly I think he is barely worth more than 20 but in efforts to keep this core together I'd go up to 25. If someone is willing to go to 30 for him I'd let him walk and look at other options. From a talent prospective I'd look at some other guys over Middleton, but risking chemistry would be a big risk. DeMarcus Cousins is someone I have really been thinking about, it seems like he has done everything right over the past year and is working with the Warriors as a secondary option. I think if someone goes nuts and pays Middleton max money I would try and get Cousins and upgrade the center position and then find a couple wing options to replace Middleton.

    I think for me re-signing Brogdon would be still my 1st mission and not letting someone else go nuts and overpay on him forcing us to make hard decisions down the road. Spencer Dinwiddie got 3/34 earlier in the year and has been pretty comparable. I'd try and take care of that before the end of the year and have a clearer picture. I'd also look into seeing if Hill will take a low veteran contract 1/2-4 just for depth if we lose Bledsoe.

    I'd ask on Ray but I can't see him playing much unless injuries. He would be great vet leadership like Terry was the last couple years. He looked great in the Celebrity Game, not that that means much.
    What you don't understand is that if the Bucks let Middleton walk, they have about $0 available to replace him. The money that Middleton gets is money above the salary cap but below the tax line. Perhaps they'd have $3 or $4 Million to sign a FA, but your not replacing Middleton for $3 or $4 Million. In order to sign a real free agent the Bucks would have to renounce both Bledsoe and Middleton's cap holds. So unless Kawhi wants to join the Bucks, our best and only option is to try to bring back our own.

  6. #2616
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    I thought we would be way below that cap line with all the money we save from the Hill trade and the expiring deals. I haven't looked at next years salary, but through mental math we owe Giannis (25), Snell (10), Ersan (7), and the crew of young guys under contract (7-10). That is a little over $50 million add in 10-15 for Brogdon we should have more than 3-4 million. I know there are some cap holds and other things, I'm I missing something big?

  7. #2617
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    Resigning brogdon now would be a bad idea. His cap hold is small and he's restricted. Resigning him gives us virtually no flexibility unless we bring everyone else back. Brogdon should be the last one back if we want to maintain room.

  8. #2618
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay87shot View Post
    I thought we would be way below that cap line with all the money we save from the Hill trade and the expiring deals. I haven't looked at next years salary, but through mental math we owe Giannis (25), Snell (10), Ersan (7), and the crew of young guys under contract (7-10). That is a little over $50 million add in 10-15 for Brogdon we should have more than 3-4 million. I know there are some cap holds and other things, I'm I missing something big?
    I was off a little. We are at 61 Mil if you include Sterling and 63 if you include Connaughton, 30 Mil in cap holds if you renounce Mirotic, puts us at 93. Capholds are Bledsoe, Brogdon and Lopez, but primarily Bledsoe. That leaves us 16 Mil under cap to sign a FA. That $16 Mil also would include renouncing Middleton after he opts out.
    Last edited by HacksawButch; 02-21-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  9. #2619
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    Read an article the other day that said Bucks ownership is willing to be luxury tax paying team for a team that can contend for the title. It suggested that it was possible to Bring back all of Middleton, Bledsoe, Brogdon, Lopez and Mirotic, but there was a specific order things had to happen. Lopez had to take the MLE 1st and Brogdon can't sign another teams offer early. Most everyone would have to be willing to take a little less than their best offers.

  10. #2620
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    Read an article the other day that said Bucks ownership is willing to be luxury tax paying team for a team that can contend for the title. It suggested that it was possible to Bring back all of Middleton, Bledsoe, Brogdon, Lopez and Mirotic, but there was a specific order things had to happen. Lopez had to take the MLE 1st and Brogdon can't sign another teams offer early. Most everyone would have to be willing to take a little less than their best offers.
    Yep i agree, but I don't think all of them will be back. The playoffs will have a lot to say. Go to ECF Bucks will probably keep this group together as best as they can. Giannis took less and he will expect same from teammates. If they want to chase $$$ elsewhere fine. Bucks have room for max player if Middleton walks. I think if Middleton walks will have trickledown effect. With Giannis a lot of things that weren't possible like luring a big-time FA looks possible. Going to be interesting ride through playoffs and into offseason.

  11. #2621
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    Yep i agree, but I don't think all of them will be back. The playoffs will have a lot to say. Go to ECF Bucks will probably keep this group together as best as they can. Giannis took less and he will expect same from teammates. If they want to chase $$$ elsewhere fine. Bucks have room for max player if Middleton walks. I think if Middleton walks will have trickledown effect. With Giannis a lot of things that weren't possible like luring a big-time FA looks possible. Going to be interesting ride through playoffs and into offseason.
    In order to open up a max slot we'd have to renounce Bledsoe as well as Middleton and perhaps Mirotic too. We can open up a max slot, but would lose the 3 higher price FA's we already have to do it.

    I do agree that how we fair in the playoffs will go a long way in determining what we do with our free agents.

  12. #2622
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    In order to open up a max slot we'd have to renounce Bledsoe as well as Middleton and perhaps Mirotic too. We can open up a max slot, but would lose the 3 higher price FA's we already have to do it.

    I do agree that how we fair in the playoffs will go a long way in determining what we do with our free agents.
    I think its an easier conversation than you're indicating. Bucks have to know what they're willing to pay Middleton. Need to set the price somewhere and it needs to be well below the max for it to make sense IMO. He just isn't worth that much, I'd argue he's worth a lot more playing with Giannis in a small market for a couple reasons. 1. We have a good record see he gets an All-Star nod he didn't deserve that he wouldn't have gotten on basically any other team. 2. The small market keeps his bad games hidden, lets be honest the media pays zero attention to the Bucks. If Middleton was in New York or LA right now he'd be getting roasted hard.

    These facts all tell me that right now his market value is likely significantly higher than his actual worth. He's going to be a prime example of an overpay and a bad contract. Let him walk.

    Bucks can offer him $22M right after the season, I wouldn't go higher than that honestly. If its a non-starter you renounce his rights and see what you can get elsewhere. It makes much more sense to either take a slight step back next season, or try and grab someone on a more reasonable contract that can perform just as well. I keep preaching about Bogdonavic. I think that's the type of player we should target instead.

  13. #2623
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    I think its an easier conversation than you're indicating. Bucks have to know what they're willing to pay Middleton. Need to set the price somewhere and it needs to be well below the max for it to make sense IMO. He just isn't worth that much, I'd argue he's worth a lot more playing with Giannis in a small market for a couple reasons. 1. We have a good record see he gets an All-Star nod he didn't deserve that he wouldn't have gotten on basically any other team. 2. The small market keeps his bad games hidden, lets be honest the media pays zero attention to the Bucks. If Middleton was in New York or LA right now he'd be getting roasted hard.

    These facts all tell me that right now his market value is likely significantly higher than his actual worth. He's going to be a prime example of an overpay and a bad contract. Let him walk.

    Bucks can offer him $22M right after the season, I wouldn't go higher than that honestly. If its a non-starter you renounce his rights and see what you can get elsewhere. It makes much more sense to either take a slight step back next season, or try and grab someone on a more reasonable contract that can perform just as well. I keep preaching about Bogdonavic. I think that's the type of player we should target instead.
    I pretty much agree. As I've stated, Giannis is watching. He signed 4-100 and could have had more and expects guys to take less to stay and play for a winner. Will Middleton go Bledsoe route and take less to win? There are a couple teams that seem infatuated with Middleton...Hornets (he always plays good against them), Pacers, Mavs. I would say if possible to try and sign and deal him. I think we all agree he's not a max guy. If we decide to overpay, then deal him. One guy that intrigues me is Beal...he's seen as a bad locker room guy and always arguing with Wall, opposite of Midd but Beal is as good a shooter and more athletic than Middleton.I am not sure the Bucks could make that happen but Giannis and Beal would be a great combo. I don't want to keep Middleton around for anything more than what 22 or 23 million. This offseason will show the impact of Giannis if Middleton leaves...can he draw a FA to MKE without massive overpays by Bucks ala Bobby Simmons or to retain FAs ala Gadz, Redd.

  14. #2624
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    I pretty much agree. As I've stated, Giannis is watching. He signed 4-100 and could have had more and expects guys to take less to stay and play for a winner. Will Middleton go Bledsoe route and take less to win? There are a couple teams that seem infatuated with Middleton...Hornets (he always plays good against them), Pacers, Mavs. I would say if possible to try and sign and deal him. I think we all agree he's not a max guy. If we decide to overpay, then deal him. One guy that intrigues me is Beal...he's seen as a bad locker room guy and always arguing with Wall, opposite of Midd but Beal is as good a shooter and more athletic than Middleton.I am not sure the Bucks could make that happen but Giannis and Beal would be a great combo. I don't want to keep Middleton around for anything more than what 22 or 23 million. This offseason will show the impact of Giannis if Middleton leaves...can he draw a FA to MKE without massive overpays by Bucks ala Bobby Simmons or to retain FAs ala Gadz, Redd.
    If Middleton walks we have like 7.5 Mil to offer a FA unless we renounce some of our cap holds, Mirotic, Lopez, Brogdon = $26 Mil cap hold. Not including Gasol. Most of it is Mirotic, so to add a FA to replace Middleton, we also lose Mirotic, unless your replacing Middleton for $7.5 Mil. Mirotics cap hold is 18.75 Mil, so who we bringing in for $26.25 Mil that replaces both Mirotic and Middleton? I don't want to pay Middleton a Max contract, but I'm not limiting him to $22/23 Mil either. Middleton is averaging over 20 PPG and shooting 43% from 3 since the all star break. If you remember the series against Boston last year Middleton was near all NBA level in that playoff series. I'd offer $28 Mil per and try to keep this team together. Bucks could win the title this season, but next year their odd's get better when Durant leaves the Warriors.

  15. #2625
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    If Middleton walks we have like 7.5 Mil to offer a FA unless we renounce some of our cap holds, Mirotic, Lopez, Brogdon = $26 Mil cap hold. Not including Gasol. Most of it is Mirotic, so to add a FA to replace Middleton, we also lose Mirotic, unless your replacing Middleton for $7.5 Mil. Mirotics cap hold is 18.75 Mil, so who we bringing in for $26.25 Mil that replaces both Mirotic and Middleton? I don't want to pay Middleton a Max contract, but I'm not limiting him to $22/23 Mil either. Middleton is averaging over 20 PPG and shooting 43% from 3 since the all star break. If you remember the series against Boston last year Middleton was near all NBA level in that playoff series. I'd offer $28 Mil per and try to keep this team together. Bucks could win the title this season, but next year their odd's get better when Durant leaves the Warriors.
    Gotta look at more than just next season though. If you're stuck with him for 4 years at $28M...gross

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