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  1. #1261
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    I mean, Jabari is 4 years younger and has played in half as many pro games as middleton. So middleton should be better at a lot of the ďotherĒ things like help defense and being in the right spot.

    We know what middleton is. Unless we get a high level player, we are kind of stuck. Middleton isnít going to get any better. He basically is who he is.

    And thatís most of the team to be honest. If we accept that players peak around 26 or 27, quite a few of our players fit that bill, including a guy like Brogdon, despite only being a 2nd year guy. We donít have a ton of improvement opportunity already on the roster besides Giannis and Jabari (and guys like thon and wilson). Trading Jabari for whiteside is such a short term move. It may give us a better chance than this year. But even then, we go from like the 7 seed to maybe the 3 or 4 seed. And then middleton commands a big raise. And then the year after, we have to make decisions on whiteside and Bledsoe. It maybe gives us a 2 year window of improvement, but maybe not a good enough window to make us in the top tier of east.

  2. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean, Jabari is 4 years younger and has played in half as many pro games as middleton. So middleton should be better at a lot of the ďotherĒ things like help defense and being in the right spot.

    We know what middleton is. Unless we get a high level player, we are kind of stuck. Middleton isnít going to get any better. He basically is who he is.

    And thatís most of the team to be honest. If we accept that players peak around 26 or 27, quite a few of our players fit that bill, including a guy like Brogdon, despite only being a 2nd year guy. We donít have a ton of improvement opportunity already on the roster besides Giannis and Jabari (and guys like thon and wilson). Trading Jabari for whiteside is such a short term move. It may give us a better chance than this year. But even then, we go from like the 7 seed to maybe the 3 or 4 seed. And then middleton commands a big raise. And then the year after, we have to make decisions on whiteside and Bledsoe. It maybe gives us a 2 year window of improvement, but maybe not a good enough window to make us in the top tier of east.
    I get that, but Jabari shows no interest in becoming good at anything else. Happy to just be out there. Also one injury and he is pretty much toast. So, yes Middleton might not improve much but 20 points with 5 assists with Giannis is pretty good. Then use Jabari or Bledsoe or both to get Kemba or a second star I think equates better. Kemba/Giannis/Midd. I am open to moving Brogdon also. This team needs to do something to keep Giannis happy and make the team better. I am not negative on Jabari as I'd been happy if he signed 3-54. But I just don't think he's a 20 million a year guy with two ACL tears and nothing else besides scoring 20 or little else anyway. I don't really want Whiteside. Rather sign Dedmon if possible. I know they were interested at the deadline in trading for Dedmon.

  3. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean, Jabari is 4 years younger and has played in half as many pro games as middleton. So middleton should be better at a lot of the ďotherĒ things like help defense and being in the right spot.

    We know what middleton is. Unless we get a high level player, we are kind of stuck. Middleton isnít going to get any better. He basically is who he is.

    And thatís most of the team to be honest. If we accept that players peak around 26 or 27, quite a few of our players fit that bill, including a guy like Brogdon, despite only being a 2nd year guy. We donít have a ton of improvement opportunity already on the roster besides Giannis and Jabari (and guys like thon and wilson). Trading Jabari for whiteside is such a short term move. It may give us a better chance than this year. But even then, we go from like the 7 seed to maybe the 3 or 4 seed. And then middleton commands a big raise. And then the year after, we have to make decisions on whiteside and Bledsoe. It maybe gives us a 2 year window of improvement, but maybe not a good enough window to make us in the top tier of east.
    I get what your saying that Middleton and many of the other Bucks are done improving as players, but Middleton has gotten better offensively this year. While having an off year from deep. Brogdon has also improved considerably from his rookie season and it would be foolish to think that he won't continue to get better. He already looks to be in better shape than he was preinjury just by diet and exercise.

    With that being said, the bucks do need to make some changes and trying to add a better no. 2 makes a lot of sense. I like Bledsoe more than everyone else, because he plays defense, but I'm willing to include him as a trade chip. Bledsoe seems so hit and miss as far as his effectiveness, but maybe we should wait and see what he brings in the playoffs before making these decisions. If Bledsoe plays his best in the playoffs and out plays Middleton and Jabari by significant amounts, perhaps we'd need to reconsider.

    The problem with resigning Jabari is he wants a Max contract, but his play is worth about what Middleton is getting on his current contract and that's when he's healthy. I realise this team tends to over pay everybody, but that's something that needs to change. Right now Jabari is the 5th best player on this team. He may become a much better player, but he's not on the same page as Giannis either, they don't play well together. So my personnal choice would be to package Bledsoe and Jabari to go after a Kemba or someone like that to improve the team.

  4. #1264
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    So you move Jabari and Bledsoe for Kemba and probably a little bit of a contract to equal things out. Assuming that guy isnít a key contributor, our lineup is Kemba, snell or broggy, middleton, Giannis and Henson? Maybe we can use the MLE on a better center. Letís even call that Dedmon for arguments sake. So replace Henson with dedmon. Then our bench is broggy or snell (whoever doesnít start), Brown, Henson, thon, Wilson, zeller and maybe a guy like bazz.

    So letís compare that to Boston. So itís kyrie vs Kemba, which is advantage Boston. Itís snell or Brogdon vs smart, which is advantage Boston. Itís middleton vs Hayward, which is probably advantage Boston, but might be close. Then itís Giannis vs letís say Tatum. Thatís a big advantage to the bucks. Then dedmon vs hordord. Thatís another advantage Boston. So theyíre stil better at 4 out of the 5 starting spots. And when we compare benches, they have guys like brown and rosier, which is better than anything we have.

    If you did the same thing with Toronto, it would look similar. My point isnít that Jabari is a shoe in to be a stud. But moving him for a player whoís in their later 20s that doesnít push us into the same level as the top teams in the east, who are still a tier below the top of the West, doesnít do much.

    To me, those types of deals puts us into a spot where we might be able to compete for a 3 seed and if we stay healthy and things break right, we can maybe sneak into the finals to get crushed by the west in the next couple years.

    You either trade Jabari for a legit superstar, like kawhi (understanding that probsbly also costs you middleton) or you move him for something young with upside. Otherwise, you build around Giannis and Jabari in hopes that Jabari improves and stays healthy and you move middleton for something young with upside.

  5. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    So you move Jabari and Bledsoe for Kemba and probably a little bit of a contract to equal things out. Assuming that guy isnít a key contributor, our lineup is Kemba, snell or broggy, middleton, Giannis and Henson? Maybe we can use the MLE on a better center. Letís even call that Dedmon for arguments sake. So replace Henson with dedmon. Then our bench is broggy or snell (whoever doesnít start), Brown, Henson, thon, Wilson, zeller and maybe a guy like bazz.

    So letís compare that to Boston. So itís kyrie vs Kemba, which is advantage Boston. Itís snell or Brogdon vs smart, which is advantage Boston. Itís middleton vs Hayward, which is probably advantage Boston, but might be close. Then itís Giannis vs letís say Tatum. Thatís a big advantage to the bucks. Then dedmon vs hordord. Thatís another advantage Boston. So theyíre stil better at 4 out of the 5 starting spots. And when we compare benches, they have guys like brown and rosier, which is better than anything we have.

    If you did the same thing with Toronto, it would look similar. My point isnít that Jabari is a shoe in to be a stud. But moving him for a player whoís in their later 20s that doesnít push us into the same level as the top teams in the east, who are still a tier below the top of the West, doesnít do much.

    To me, those types of deals puts us into a spot where we might be able to compete for a 3 seed and if we stay healthy and things break right, we can maybe sneak into the finals to get crushed by the west in the next couple years.

    You either trade Jabari for a legit superstar, like kawhi (understanding that probsbly also costs you middleton) or you move him for something young with upside. Otherwise, you build around Giannis and Jabari in hopes that Jabari improves and stays healthy and you move middleton for something young with upside.
    The problem for the Bucks is not only the bad contracts but the shi**y draft picks in the first round. When you are in a small market and FAs are hard to come by you need to hit on some studs or find a diamond in the rough like Giannis when you swing for the fences.

    I really what Kemba would bring plus he'd have desire to move on in playoffs because never has. But you might be right. But if you just stand pat with Jabari, what's the difference? I don't see him become a superstar. But as you say might be best chance. Might be a waste of time wondering but do you think Jabari-Bled and say Brogdon would be enough to land Kawhi (if things go further south with SA) or Anthony Davis? Because the Pels will likely lose Boogie this summer and AD won't want to be on that team IMO.

  6. #1266
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    i think kawhi should be main priority. i just read an article that says because he hasnt played SA may not want to offer him the super max contract he wants. But on kawhis side he was rushed back from injury by SA last season and reinjured himself and now doesnt trust them so he may not want to play just so he knows hes healthy and can still get his big money.
    because of this scenario the market on him may drop (injuries and possible desire to move on from SA).

    heres the link to the full read. If thats the case though i dont see any reason why a jabari and brogdon or bledsoe or something couldnt land kawhi. IF is a big word here obviously. Giannis and Kawhi though offense and defensively would be amazing, especially in the east. who could they not match up against?? especially if we were able to keep middleton or jabari as a 3rd option.

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  7. #1267
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    If thats the case though i dont see any reason why a jabari and brogdon or bledsoe or something couldnt land kawhi. IF is a big word here obviously.
    I think Giannis likes Bledsoe on the team. BJ is a good backup.
    Parker can put up 20-30 easily, but not much on defense. Midz give or take 20, Bledsoe 15-20, and Brogdon 10-15. Not even mentioning Muhammed can score.
    A player like Kawhi, or Whiteside would push the team in the positive direction. I am guessing they would prefer the forward, and perhaps a cheaper pickup at center.

  8. #1268
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    Sorry Madtown, Jennings sucks. Career 39 percent shooter. Been pretty bad since Memphis game. Got a big DNP last game. Also wtf is going on with Delly? Been out for months with ankle sprain. Are they just sitting him until playoffs or what? Brogdon set to be back any game now also. If Bledsoe played like he did last game vs. Boston I would love him on Bucks also. Agressive for the whole game. Too often he settles for chucking 3s.

    This team needs to make a move in the offseason to get a decent big like Dedmon and then dump a bad contract or two and add a star to pair with Giannis because Midd and Jabari would be fine third options.

  9. #1269
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    I think since Kidd is gone there has been some player re-evaluations. Delly was playing his best before the last injury for swinging the ball on offense and taking easy shots when people back off.

    It is true both Delly and Brogdon have been out for a long time, but I do not know why. Brogdon's injury with the quad tendon could have been serious and needs time.

  10. #1270
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    In an interview with bledsoe in the last day or 2 he actually noticed his own difference lately saying that he has just been more aggressive lately. dude is an xfactor for sure. when bledsoe plays good good things happen.
    we have a lot of different pieces that are like that. when they put it all together is when this team looks unstoppable.
    dellys month has turned into like 2.5 months, who knows whats going on with him.
    i just hope brogdon comes back in the next couple games so theres not as much rust going into the playoffs. even now seems kinda late to not have any rust by the playoffs.

    if it could be as easy as having a healthy team all season and adding a center and a coach then i think the FO takes a lesser risk approach and doesnt blow the team up. unless a reallly good deal presents itself maybe idk.

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  11. #1271
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    I have to imagine the conversation for kawhi starts with middleton and Parker.

    And Iíve never said Parker is a sure thing, but he still has upside. The majority of the rest of the team doesnít really have much, if any real upside outside of Giannis. (Again, guys like Wilson and thon have upside, but that upside might be going from unplayable to being an okay backup).

    My point is if you trade Parker for another guy who is at his peak, that dude better be a stud, like a kawhi. If heís not, and guys like Kemba and whiteside are not studs, it doesnít do much for me. Like others have said. We donít also have cap room or valuable draft capital. If you get Kemba or whiteside for Jabari, your roster is as good as itís going to get, with maybe some room for small improvements. I donít think that roster is good enough compete. So without draft picks or cap room, youíre stuck. Then you have to decide to resign or keep paying middleton, whiteside, Bledsoe and so on as they age.

    Basically, and maybe Iím not explaining myself correctly, trading Parker for Kemba or whiteside is like a herb kohl on steroids move. We all criticized kohl because he did whatever he could to make the playoffs, even if that meant moving young guys like Harris and not bottoming out. Trading Parker for one of those guys Luis sort of like that, but instead of doing whatever for the 8 seed. We are doing whatever we can to get like the 3 seed. We didnít do enough to actually win a championship and we shipped out all or most of our assets with any value.

    Iíd rather take a shot. Taking a shot for me involves trading guys who are what they are for younger players with some upside and building around our upside guys. It may crash and burn. But I also doubt the other method gets us very far anyways. So Iíd rather crash out trying to win the race than be content sitting in the 2nd or 3rd tier of teams.

  12. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I have to imagine the conversation for kawhi starts with middleton and Parker.

    And Iíve never said Parker is a sure thing, but he still has upside. The majority of the rest of the team doesnít really have much, if any real upside outside of Giannis. (Again, guys like Wilson and thon have upside, but that upside might be going from unplayable to being an okay backup).

    My point is if you trade Parker for another guy who is at his peak, that dude better be a stud, like a kawhi. If heís not, and guys like Kemba and whiteside are not studs, it doesnít do much for me. Like others have said. We donít also have cap room or valuable draft capital. If you get Kemba or whiteside for Jabari, your roster is as good as itís going to get, with maybe some room for small improvements. I donít think that roster is good enough compete. So without draft picks or cap room, youíre stuck. Then you have to decide to resign or keep paying middleton, whiteside, Bledsoe and so on as they age.

    Basically, and maybe Iím not explaining myself correctly, trading Parker for Kemba or whiteside is like a herb kohl on steroids move. We all criticized kohl because he did whatever he could to make the playoffs, even if that meant moving young guys like Harris and not bottoming out. Trading Parker for one of those guys Luis sort of like that, but instead of doing whatever for the 8 seed. We are doing whatever we can to get like the 3 seed. We didnít do enough to actually win a championship and we shipped out all or most of our assets with any value.

    Iíd rather take a shot. Taking a shot for me involves trading guys who are what they are for younger players with some upside and building around our upside guys. It may crash and burn. But I also doubt the other method gets us very far anyways. So Iíd rather crash out trying to win the race than be content sitting in the 2nd or 3rd tier of teams.
    To me it depends on the $$$ for Parker. I am fine with $15 or 18 even but $20 seems ridiculous to a guy who has shown nothing besides he gets hurt and can score. The issue I have with your premise is it's like you're saying a 3-seed with Kemba etc. is bad. Not sure Bucks ever get to that with Jabari, i'd go as far as saying 90 percent because of as you said rest of bench is trash and can't turn that sh** into gold. No pieces. So instead of getting a star, you pray Jabari doesn't shred his knee again and sign a small difference maker for MLE. Not sure that does anything more than what has happened in the past either. Also it's different if Jabari has no injuries also. Just a lot of risk when you can get a for sure thing in Kemba or similar player. Also I would trade Jabari and Middleton for Kawhi or Anthony Davis as you mentioned as starters for them but I would add Brogdon too as when he gets paid his value goes down a ton.

  13. #1273
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    To me, itís not a competition to see who can get the highest seed. And thatís my whole point, if we trade Jabari for a non superstar whoís in their late 20s, I donít see a path to a championship unless we get lucky and land jokic in the 2nd or something like that. Like I said in my post, itís possible a move like trading middleton for a younger player and building on Giannis Parker and that other young guy blows up in our face.

    But Iíd rather blow up trying to win than sit back a be happy with a 3 seed in a weak conference whoís happy making it to the conference finals but never any further. Cuz a team of Bledsoe, snell, middleton, Giannis and whiteside is exactly that. And that team has a year or two together before you have to decide to pay aging guys big bucks or to take your chance in FA.

  14. #1274
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    If Jabari balks on the contract talks, Brogdon could easily be the 5th starter over Snell. Then all they have to do is spend some money on a center.
    If Jabari talks work out, they might have to do some roster shuffling for that last player.
    There is no guarantee any of the big free agents even want to be in Milwaukee.

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    So you move Jabari and Bledsoe for Kemba and probably a little bit of a contract to equal things out. Assuming that guy isnít a key contributor, our lineup is Kemba, snell or broggy, middleton, Giannis and Henson? Maybe we can use the MLE on a better center. Letís even call that Dedmon for arguments sake. So replace Henson with dedmon. Then our bench is broggy or snell (whoever doesnít start), Brown, Henson, thon, Wilson, zeller and maybe a guy like bazz.

    So letís compare that to Boston. So itís kyrie vs Kemba, which is advantage Boston. Itís snell or Brogdon vs smart, which is advantage Boston. Itís middleton vs Hayward, which is probably advantage Boston, but might be close. Then itís Giannis vs letís say Tatum. Thatís a big advantage to the bucks. Then dedmon vs hordord. Thatís another advantage Boston. So theyíre stil better at 4 out of the 5 starting spots. And when we compare benches, they have guys like brown and rosier, which is better than anything we have.

    If you did the same thing with Toronto, it would look similar. My point isnít that Jabari is a shoe in to be a stud. But moving him for a player whoís in their later 20s that doesnít push us into the same level as the top teams in the east, who are still a tier below the top of the West, doesnít do much.

    To me, those types of deals puts us into a spot where we might be able to compete for a 3 seed and if we stay healthy and things break right, we can maybe sneak into the finals to get crushed by the west in the next couple years.

    You either trade Jabari for a legit superstar, like kawhi (understanding that probsbly also costs you middleton) or you move him for something young with upside. Otherwise, you build around Giannis and Jabari in hopes that Jabari improves and stays healthy and you move middleton for something young with upside.
    Yes, getting to the 3 seed and possibly the conference finals, might be enough to keep Giannis around. Those bad contracts, Delly, Henson and Snell eventually expire and then you can look to add a better piece. Kawhi coming to Milwaukee would be awesome, but whats our odds on that? 0.5% chance. So yes the answer is to look to improve your roster by adding players like Kemba or Whiteside or both. Building around Giannis and Jabari is a good way to send Giannis out of town. They don't play well together and may not even like each other.

    Parker is our 5th best player - Giannis, Middleton, Bledsoe, Brogdon then Parker. He's also the player that doesn't play defense and doesn't fit with Giannis out of those 5. Plus he wants a Max contract and he's not worth $15 Mil per right now. Even Snell, fits and plays defense. He's way overpaid, but he fits.

    As far as comparing us to Boston. Our front office has made bad choices with contracts and with draft picks, so we are not going to be as good as Boston next year, baring a miracle. I like Brogdon over Smart on your player match ups though. And Giannis is still just scratching the surface. It's possible that Giannis could be the most improved player again next year or the year after. If that happens, then Kemba, Brogdon, Middleton, Giannis and Henson are way better than Kyrie, Smart, Gordon, Tatum and Horford.

    If you substituted Lebron in for Giannis, I bet you'd like the Bucks lineup better. In 2 years, substituting today's Lebron in for Giannis might be down grading the lineup.
    Last edited by HacksawButch; 04-06-2018 at 11:51 AM.

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