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  1. #2626
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Gotta look at more than just next season though. If you're stuck with him for 4 years at $28M...gross
    He's not old, He's in the prime of his career. He may be better in year 4, some players are better in their early 30's. If we win a title or 2, it wouldn't matter if he was being over paid in year 4. He's not reliant on his athletisism, so there's no reason to think he's going to decline. Sure injuries could become a factor, but that's true with anyone. Letting Middleton walk might not sit well with Giannis either.

    Losing Middleton probably puts us out of title contention for the next 2 years. That's when Giannis is eligible for a SuperMax. I'm pretty sure if when that day comes we can say we've been to the finals in 2 of the last 3 seasons, Giannis will be resigning and maybe taking less again. If Middleton walks and we don't make the finals next season or the following season, I'd leave if I were him.

    Nearly everyone thinks that we can't win a title because our 2nd best player isn't top 15 in the league and say that we don't have a true #2. That may be the case that we don't have a true #2, but we have 3- #3's and I'd rather have Middleton and Bledsoe than Russel Westbrook. Look at the teams that have all the top talent. Philly, Boston and the Warriors and they all have chemistry issues. Our team is way better than Philly, we'd beat them in 5 or 6 games. Boston will be a challenge, but I'll take the Bucks in 7 and that's assuming Boston plays their best ball. Even the Warriors are ripe to be had. Sure if the put it all together they will probably win, but if they don't, we may win the title with this team this season.
    Last edited by HacksawButch; 03-09-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2627
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    Middleton $28 Mil per
    Lopez MLE 8 Mil per
    Brogdon $18 Mil per
    Mirotic $15 Mil per this puts us into the luxury tax for next season only. We'll have the same starting 5 with Ersan, Mirotic, Snell, Brown, Connaughton and Devincenzo. We add a vet min Center and PG and our 2 draft picks.

  3. #2628
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    Middleton $28 Mil per
    Lopez MLE 8 Mil per
    Brogdon $18 Mil per
    Mirotic $15 Mil per this puts us into the luxury tax for next season only. We'll have the same starting 5 with Ersan, Mirotic, Snell, Brown, Connaughton and Devincenzo. We add a vet min Center and PG and our 2 draft picks.
    I hope the Bucks trade Ersan or Snell or both. Bud has a hard-on for him and if Brook-Mirotic-Giannis-Wilson all there....no need for Ersan. Sterling, Connaughton, DD make no need for Snell either. He plays less than 20 mpg as it is.

    Lopez OK at 8 mill, I am not paying Brogdon 18 million either. I would probably swallow 25 million for Middleton but if he really wants to be elsewhere OK. Brogdon at 18 million? I would look to deal them at deadline for Beal. Younger more athletic than Middleton. Brogdon would bring back nice piece too. I can see not wanting each to get away for nothing. But I would be open to bringing a very good player to MKE.

    With Giannis not like Bucks couldn't convince people to come to MKE like it has always been. Bucks have top-5 odds at winning a title with him. FAs will come to MKE now and don't need to massively overpay guys.

  4. #2629
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    I hope the Bucks trade Ersan or Snell or both. Bud has a hard-on for him and if Brook-Mirotic-Giannis-Wilson all there....no need for Ersan. Sterling, Connaughton, DD make no need for Snell either. He plays less than 20 mpg as it is.

    Lopez OK at 8 mill, I am not paying Brogdon 18 million either. I would probably swallow 25 million for Middleton but if he really wants to be elsewhere OK. Brogdon at 18 million? I would look to deal them at deadline for Beal. Younger more athletic than Middleton. Brogdon would bring back nice piece too. I can see not wanting each to get away for nothing. But I would be open to bringing a very good player to MKE.

    With Giannis not like Bucks couldn't convince people to come to MKE like it has always been. Bucks have top-5 odds at winning a title with him. FAs will come to MKE now and don't need to massively overpay guys.
    I think you way under valuing Brogdon. They said during the game last night that he is the 23rd ranked guard in the league defensively and going to be the 8th player in history to shoot 50/40/90. He's averaging 19.7 Points per 36 minutes. Great teammate, perfect fit and he's still getting better. $18 Mil per is a steal.

    I do agree that it would be nice to trade Snell and Ersan, because we have too many good players and it would free up a little money. Ersan is playing really good lately, but we have too many bigs and I'd rather have Mirotic going forward. Ersan should be easy to deal, might even get a pick back. Snell is way over paid. He's not a bad player, if he were getting 5 Mil per, but at 11/12 it's a bad contract. Trade Ersan 1st and use the pick we get to sweeten deal for Snell. Still probably not enough.

    I don't want to add a star player just to add a star. Only if the player is a perfect fit for this team. Don't need some ball dominant, inefficient player like Kemba. Need players that can contribute with fairly low usage and shoot the 3. Players like Brogdon!
    Last edited by HacksawButch; 03-11-2019 at 07:40 PM.

  5. #2630
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    I think you way under valuing Brogdon. They said during the game last night that he is the 23rd ranked guard in the league defensively and going to be the 8th player in history to shoot 50/40/90. He's averaging 19.7 Points per 36 minutes. Great teammate, perfect fit and he's still getting better. $18 Mil per is a steal.

    I do agree that it would be nice to trade Snell and Ersan, because we have too many good players and it would free up a little money. Ersan is playing really good lately, but we have too many bigs and I'd rather have Mirotic going forward. Ersan should be easy to deal, might even get a pick back. Snell is way over paid. He's not a bad player, if he were getting 5 Mil per, but at 11/12 it's a bad contract. Trade Ersan 1st and use the pick we get to sweeten deal for Snell. Still probably not enough.

    I don't want to add a star player just to add a star. Only if the player is a perfect fit for this team. Don't need some ball dominant, inefficient player like Kemba. Need players that can contribute with fairly low usage and shoot the 3. Players like Brogdon!
    The advanced numbers help dealing Snell, he's a valuable shooter and efficient. Maybe the Rockets lol.

    I agree on the Kemba part. With Bled coming back he isn't a fit anyway. There are a lot of players that can do some similar things as Middleton like Bogdanovic for cheaper. Middleton is a nice player but the type of deal he will get? I love Brogdon I just don't know about paying him the type of money unless it's 2 or 3 years max. I hope he can be brought back to little less than Bledsoe. But if a team signs him to crazy offer sheet, I would do a sign and trade.

  6. #2631
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    I think you way under valuing Brogdon. They said during the game last night that he is the 23rd ranked guard in the league defensively and going to be the 8th player in history to shoot 50/40/90. He's averaging 19.7 Points per 36 minutes. Great teammate, perfect fit and he's still getting better. $18 Mil per is a steal.

    I do agree that it would be nice to trade Snell and Ersan, because we have too many good players and it would free up a little money. Ersan is playing really good lately, but we have too many bigs and I'd rather have Mirotic going forward. Ersan should be easy to deal, might even get a pick back. Snell is way over paid. He's not a bad player, if he were getting 5 Mil per, but at 11/12 it's a bad contract. Trade Ersan 1st and use the pick we get to sweeten deal for Snell. Still probably not enough.

    I don't want to add a star player just to add a star. Only if the player is a perfect fit for this team. Don't need some ball dominant, inefficient player like Kemba. Need players that can contribute with fairly low usage and shoot the 3. Players like Brogdon!
    The efficiency thing is always a two headed monster though. Kemba isn't overly efficient but hes also the clear number 1 on a mediocre at best team. But sliding over to a new team where he'd likely decline in usage as the #2 guy would very likely improve his efficiency. That's essentially what happened with Bledsoe. The less you ask him/force him to do, the more efficient he got.

    But with Bledsoe re-upped, he's probably out unless it's a trade.

  7. #2632
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    The advanced numbers help dealing Snell, he's a valuable shooter and efficient. Maybe the Rockets lol.

    I agree on the Kemba part. With Bled coming back he isn't a fit anyway. There are a lot of players that can do some similar things as Middleton like Bogdanovic for cheaper. Middleton is a nice player but the type of deal he will get? I love Brogdon I just don't know about paying him the type of money unless it's 2 or 3 years max. I hope he can be brought back to little less than Bledsoe. But if a team signs him to crazy offer sheet, I would do a sign and trade.
    On middleton though and to a lesser extent brogdon, it's not are they worth what we would be paying them vs an alternative, its much more complicated than that with out cap situation.

    Bogdinavic is a good example. Sure, he can be had cheaper than middleton (although he still probably gets a big deal). But to get him, we probably have to renounce middleton and maybe mirotic. And if we do that, we still only have enough cap to sign bogdonovic and maybe an okay bench guy. If we bring back middleton, we can, if we're willing to pay the tax, bring back middleton, mirotic, brogdon and lopez.

    And honestly, that was my issue with the Bledsoe resigning. I didn't hate bringing him back, but the move basically hampered the flexibility we maybe could have had this off-season.

    Also sign and trades are also much raiser said than done. If he actually signs the offer sheet, you cant trade him to that team if you match. So you have to find another team willing to take on the best offer he got in the open market. Or you have to convince him to hold off on signing the offer sheet and work out a trade with the team that made the offer. And depending on cap situations and available players, that's harder to do than it seems as well. There's a reason they are actually somewhat uncommon.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 03-13-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  8. #2633
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    On middleton though and to a lesser extent brogdon, it's not are they worth what we would be paying them vs an alternative, its much more complicated than that with out cap situation.

    Bogdinavic is a good example. Sure, he can be had cheaper than middleton (although he still probably gets a big deal). But to get him, we probably have to renounce middleton and maybe mirotic. And if we do that, we still only have enough cap to sign bogdonovic and maybe an okay bench guy. If we bring back middleton, we can, if we're willing to pay the tax, bring back middleton, mirotic, brogdon and lopez.

    And honestly, that was my issue with the Bledsoe resigning. I didn't hate bringing him back, but the move basically hampered the flexibility we maybe could have had this off-season.

    Also sign and trades are also much raiser said than done. If he actually signs the offer sheet, you cant trade him to that team if you match. So you have to find another team willing to take on the best offer he got in the open market. Or you have to convince him to hold off on signing the offer sheet and work out a trade with the team that made the offer. And depending on cap situations and available players, that's harder to do than it seems as well. There's a reason they are actually somewhat uncommon.
    Huge injury with Brogdon out 6-8 weeks. Depth will be tested on perimeter. Hopefully Connaughton can keep shooting like this. As for the FA talk, when Brogdon came out weren't feet a concern in draft? Why he fell to 35? Not sure with two lower body injuries and feet an issue I want Bucks giving him Bledsoe $$$.

  9. #2634
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    He's not old, He's in the prime of his career. He may be better in year 4, some players are better in their early 30's. If we win a title or 2, it wouldn't matter if he was being over paid in year 4. He's not reliant on his athletisism, so there's no reason to think he's going to decline. Sure injuries could become a factor, but that's true with anyone. Letting Middleton walk might not sit well with Giannis either.

    Losing Middleton probably puts us out of title contention for the next 2 years. That's when Giannis is eligible for a SuperMax. I'm pretty sure if when that day comes we can say we've been to the finals in 2 of the last 3 seasons, Giannis will be resigning and maybe taking less again. If Middleton walks and we don't make the finals next season or the following season, I'd leave if I were him.

    Nearly everyone thinks that we can't win a title because our 2nd best player isn't top 15 in the league and say that we don't have a true #2. That may be the case that we don't have a true #2, but we have 3- #3's and I'd rather have Middleton and Bledsoe than Russel Westbrook. Look at the teams that have all the top talent. Philly, Boston and the Warriors and they all have chemistry issues. Our team is way better than Philly, we'd beat them in 5 or 6 games. Boston will be a challenge, but I'll take the Bucks in 7 and that's assuming Boston plays their best ball. Even the Warriors are ripe to be had. Sure if the put it all together they will probably win, but if they don't, we may win the title with this team this season.
    Big "if we win a title or two". I think that's where we disagree. I don't think we can pay Middleton $30M+ and win a title. I don't think he's good enough. He's shown zero consistency. We have never even made it past the first round and now we're out here talking about winning titles. Pump the brakes. We could potentially make it to the finals, though I still think Boston/Toronto/Philly are all extremely tough matchups for us. They can center around Giannis and as bad as our role players have been shooting we would be done.

    Even if we make it out of the East, you'd be hope the Warriors fall apart after this season otherwise its a moot point.

  10. #2635
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Big "if we win a title or two". I think that's where we disagree. I don't think we can pay Middleton $30M+ and win a title. I don't think he's good enough. He's shown zero consistency. We have never even made it past the first round and now we're out here talking about winning titles. Pump the brakes. We could potentially make it to the finals, though I still think Boston/Toronto/Philly are all extremely tough matchups for us. They can center around Giannis and as bad as our role players have been shooting we would be done.

    Even if we make it out of the East, you'd be hope the Warriors fall apart after this season otherwise its a moot point.
    But again, who are you going to replace him with. Now that Bledsoe has signed a new deal, the max cap space we can get next year without trading anyone is $30 million. To do that, we'd have to renounce the rights to all our free agents. So we'd have no bird rights to go over cap. We'd have $30 mill to spend plus an $8 mill MLE that can either be spent in full or split up but not combined with the $30 mill. And we'd literally be replacing hill, mirotic, lopez, brogdon, middleton and Pau (Pau isn't a tough replace obviously.)

    If we keep broggy and renounce everyone else, we have $27 mill to spend. You arent replacing mirotic and middleton with $27 million and getting the same production.

    If we resign middleton, broggy and mirotic, we then only have the $8 mill MLE to replace lopez, hill and Pau.

    I just don't see a scenario where you let middleton walk and get better. And that's what this comes down to. Is middleton worth a massive deal? Maybe not. But you don't get a banner in the rafters by having the best value contracts. We need to stay competitive and field the best roster possible each year. We have a once in a generation talent in a day and age where players have all the control. Basically telling giannis we're going to potentially get worse in the short term because we don't want to spend the money on middleton isnt going to sit well. I have no current fears about giannis asking out of Milwaukee, but if we willingly get worse next kffaeason, we've given him an out to leave. And that's the last thing we need to do.

    And Toronto Boston and Philly are all tough matchuops. I agree with that. But there's also a decent chance that each team gets worse this off-season too. There's no guarantee kyrie signs with Boston. There's no guarantee Philly brings everyone back. And if they do, they'll have no money to spend on their awful bench. And there's no guarantee kawhk goes back to Toronto. I think we are just as good as them right now. We aren't clearly better long term, but we are just as good. And there's a real chance they all get worse. Same goes for the best teams in the west. GS could finally break up this year. Houston isn't getting younger, especially Chris Paul. Denver is unproven.

    Obviously if there's player movement someone will benefit. A team like new York could land their dream off season and end up with zion, Durant and kyrie. LeBron may get AD and so on. But this team as constructed definitely has a shot at a title in the next 3-4 years. I can't see us dismantling it if we don't have a clear path to get better.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 03-20-2019 at 01:49 PM.

  11. #2636
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    Well I'm perfectly willing to get a bit worse in the short term in order to improve long term. Watching Middleton this year I just don't see how anyone can justify paying him big money. I know how the cap situation plays out, but hell he's getting out played just about every night. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made. I'd have rather traded him before this season started, obviously that didn't happen and we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We've all been watching this team for years and I think most of us said 3 years ago Middleton wasn't going to be worth his next contract so it was time to move him.

    We can hope for a S&T with someone that really like Middleton. I think the Pacers would do that. I like Bogdonovic better in our system than Middleton. I also think Middleton is widely considered the better player so Indiana would likely give us more than a straight 1-1 trade. If the market value for Middleton is really strong I look to trade him. If not....well then we're stuck making a really tough call.

  12. #2637
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    I also don't have any fear of telling Giannis we're unwilling to pay for Middleton. That's not exactly true. Its a capped league. Its not that we are unwilling to pay him, its that if we do we are stuck with a roster we can't improve. The point would be that we don't have a roster good enough to win a title, and that if we sign Middleton we won't ever have a roster good enough to win during that contract. That's the concern.

  13. #2638
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    Quote Originally Posted by twellner9 View Post
    Well I'm perfectly willing to get a bit worse in the short term in order to improve long term. Watching Middleton this year I just don't see how anyone can justify paying him big money. I know how the cap situation plays out, but hell he's getting out played just about every night. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made. I'd have rather traded him before this season started, obviously that didn't happen and we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We've all been watching this team for years and I think most of us said 3 years ago Middleton wasn't going to be worth his next contract so it was time to move him.

    We can hope for a S&T with someone that really like Middleton. I think the Pacers would do that. I like Bogdonovic better in our system than Middleton. I also think Middleton is widely considered the better player so Indiana would likely give us more than a straight 1-1 trade. If the market value for Middleton is really strong I look to trade him. If not....well then we're stuck making a really tough call.
    But again, how are you actually going to improve in the long term. We don't get a ton of money free the following off-season. And the off-season after that giannis can leave.

    And people keep bringing up bogdanovic. He's playing well. But everyone has money. If you think he can be had for less than $15-20 mill you're probably wrong. He's going to get paid too. So if you want bogdanovic, your off season next year is basically bringing back the same team minus hill, middleton and mirotic and bringing in bogdonovic and maybe another bench player.

    And it's not like you're getting a bunch of money open the next year either. Assuming you sign brogdon after signing bogdanovic, you're likely over cap for next year too. And if you aren't, you maybe have a few million to spare. Basically whatever moves you make this summer, unless you let everyone walk and sign a bunch of one year deals, is the roster you'll have the next off-season. In either case you can have a mid level exception next year, but that's likely to be the majority of the cap either way. Then the next year is the year giannis gets a raise too I believe.

    And sign and trades are rare, especially since middleton is unrestricted. No reason for any team, especially Indiana who has the cap room and could just sign him straight out to do a sign and trade. We have no leverage in a sign and trade.

  14. #2639
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But again, how are you actually going to improve in the long term. We don't get a ton of money free the following off-season. And the off-season after that giannis can leave.

    And people keep bringing up bogdanovic. He's playing well. But everyone has money. If you think he can be had for less than $15-20 mill you're probably wrong. He's going to get paid too. So if you want bogdanovic, your off season next year is basically bringing back the same team minus hill, middleton and mirotic and bringing in bogdonovic and maybe another bench player.

    And it's not like you're getting a bunch of money open the next year either. Assuming you sign brogdon after signing bogdanovic, you're likely over cap for next year too. And if you aren't, you maybe have a few million to spare. Basically whatever moves you make this summer, unless you let everyone walk and sign a bunch of one year deals, is the roster you'll have the next off-season. In either case you can have a mid level exception next year, but that's likely to be the majority of the cap either way. Then the next year is the year giannis gets a raise too I believe.

    And sign and trades are rare, especially since middleton is unrestricted. No reason for any team, especially Indiana who has the cap room and could just sign him straight out to do a sign and trade. We have no leverage in a sign and trade.
    The Bucks need to make some moves in the offseason. Snell and Ersan I'd trade. Free up some cap space. Middleton I hope will take less...everyone else has thus far. Giannis could have gotten more than 4-100. Bledsoe likely gets more than 17.5...if Brogdon and Middleton take less and we trade Ersan and Snell we should be in OK shape and be able to keep the starting unit together with Mirotic.

  15. #2640
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But again, how are you actually going to improve in the long term. We don't get a ton of money free the following off-season. And the off-season after that giannis can leave.

    And people keep bringing up bogdanovic. He's playing well. But everyone has money. If you think he can be had for less than $15-20 mill you're probably wrong. He's going to get paid too. So if you want bogdanovic, your off season next year is basically bringing back the same team minus hill, middleton and mirotic and bringing in bogdonovic and maybe another bench player.

    And it's not like you're getting a bunch of money open the next year either. Assuming you sign brogdon after signing bogdanovic, you're likely over cap for next year too. And if you aren't, you maybe have a few million to spare. Basically whatever moves you make this summer, unless you let everyone walk and sign a bunch of one year deals, is the roster you'll have the next off-season. In either case you can have a mid level exception next year, but that's likely to be the majority of the cap either way. Then the next year is the year giannis gets a raise too I believe.

    And sign and trades are rare, especially since middleton is unrestricted. No reason for any team, especially Indiana who has the cap room and could just sign him straight out to do a sign and trade. We have no leverage in a sign and trade.
    Not saying I have a good answer because I don't. I don't like any of this. Only thing that would potentially work is a S&T. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought we could do that with Indiana? Do a double S&T swapping Middleton and Bogdanovic (plus maybe a couple draft picks). It really depends on the market for Middleton. If there's a lot of legit interest in him I don't see why we couldn't do a S&T giving up him for maybe an expiring deal and a few draft picks or younger players. Lakers?

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