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  1. #1
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    Who Has The More Pressure/More Despera To Complete the Deal? -- Boston or Cleveland?

    People say that Boston has all the leverage has they don't have to part with any extra assets to get Kyrie. Some say they're still in good shape and can contend in the East if they keep Thomas, Crowder and Zizic to go along with Horford and Hayward. Many say that Cleveland has to get rid of Kyrie because no way that LeBron-Kyrie can be a duo anymore.



    I look at it a different way, and it in some sorts reminds of the Chis Paul veto trade back in 2011 that consisted of a 3 way trade between the Lakers, NOLA and Houston. Lamar Odom was supposed to be traded to NOLA, but instead, was brought back to the Lakers, and the Lakers knew he was damaged goods emotionally and traded him to the Mavericks for a first round pick and a $8.9M TPE.



    There's no way Boston can bring back a vetoed Isaiah Thomas (bad hip and now emotionally scarred after giving his heart and soul to the organization following his sister's untimely death). Boston loses leverage as other teams know that Isaiah's value has deeply plummeted. And say Isaiah does come back healthy for the '17-18 season in Boston, it just won't be the same because now that trust is broken.



    I think at this point for the Celtics, it has now become more of getting rid of Thomas over acquiring Irving.



    Your thoughts.

  2. #2
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    If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.
    yeah not a bad take. I agree

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  4. #4
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    I say definitely Cleveland. This move was never expected, if it falls apart I don't think it will affect Thomas after he's had a few weeks to digest it. Cleveland however absolutely cannot bring Irving back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #5
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    If back to square one Cleveland.

    Worst case scenario for Boston here is they let IT expire with no return. He's going to play hard because of the contract year. Crowder is a pro and he is wired to play hard and play with grit, that's just his character. Both of these guys value might take a hit, but Boston can take the worse scenarios with these guys. Thomas is still tradable because he is an expiring. Crowder is tradable because he has one of the best contracts in the league. The only thing is if they are disgruntled their values go down. But even a trade with another team using these two as filler with the BK pick and Zizic will still get you a premium asset in return IMO given the precedent of the Butler/Cp/DMC/PG trades.

    For Boston no one is under pressure to do anything. Stevens job is one of the safest in the league and so is Ainge's. They have assets and flexibility galore.

    Boston can let things come to them and not force the issue. You never know when a Cousins or Marc Gasol becomes available. You never know when someone else gets disgruntled. You never know when a team flops and someone becomes available.

    Cleveland OTOH is under pressure and desperate no matter what. If they take the Millwaukee and Phoenix trades, they are sweating to see if the team is good enough for LeBron to re-sign. Out of the three trades, the one with Boston is the best trade if LeBron decides to dip. the Brooklyn pick gives you the best rebuild asset. Out of the three trades, the Boston pick gives you the most flexibility to improve even further at the deadline as well if you want to go all in.

    Cleveland is under pressure period. Any Kyrie trade is magnified because of the LeBron situation at the end of the year. Cleveland has to tread carefully and precisely within a shorter time frame. Boston isn't forced to do anything.

  6. #6
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    Instead of Kyrie, BOS ends up with BRK pick, Zizic and Crowder to build with for the future if the deal falls through (assuming IT is allowed to walk or traded for whatever value they can salvage).

    Instead of IT/Crowder/Zizic/BRK pick, the Cavs likely get Middleton and Brogden along with a non-premium 1st rounder from MIL. That's the rumored "runner-up" package.

    For BOS, there's actually the upside that they end up better. The BRK pick could be a stud, Zizic could develop well, Crowder is a solid player/trade chip and they have extra salary flexibility in a few years to add around the young rookie contract guys (Brown, Tatum, 2018 BRK pick, LAL/SAC pick, Zizic, Yabusele) once Horford and Hayward expire in 3 years. The benefit of the deal for BOS is that Kyrie still fits into that timeline along with making them more formidable short-term and he's a known thing unlike that BRK pick, Zizic and what they could land with extra salary flexibility. So that's their loss - not turning some unknown assets into a known quantity and gambling they can match or exceed Irving.

    CLE if they do the MIL deal might arguably be better short-term if they can work out the chemistry on offense. Because they're certainly better on D by virtue of not replacing Kyrie with an even worse defender (assuming IT plays at all). But realistically if they are better, it doesn't at all make them a threat to catch GS. And unlike with the BRK pick, there wouldn't appear to be a package of assets that would enable to trade for a star to help them do that. And then of course in the event that Lebron leaves I think you'd rather have the BRK pick to build with than a role player who will require an extension in 2 years (Middleton), a limited upside guy in Brogden that will be an RFA in 2 years and then a projected to be late 1st. So that's their loss - settling for kind of a "no man's land" deal that doesn't really help push them past GS or give them flexibility to nor does it help a potential rebuild as much if Lebron leaves.


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  7. #7
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    Cavs.

    Good luck getting a pick as good as the Nets.

    We'll take back IT and work it out. The only thing he cares about is money anyway. He's going to the highest bidder, and with his health he might not be getting as much as he hoped. At worst IT walks and we keep our Nets pick.

    Cavs future is totally f***ed after Bron leaves this year, they've traded away their picks and have horrible contracts.

  8. #8
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    To me Boston has the leverage simply because they are probably the only team in the NBA who can send back win now talent coupled with a very nice draft pick. I get the fact that Boston would have a tough time bringing back IT and Crowder, but at the same time they play for the guys in the locker room so I am sure they would go along to get along with their teammates. Kyrie has an issue with his teammate(s) and that can cause issues in the locker room.

    Back to the trade though, there is basically no other team that can offer the Cavs a solid PG, decent wing on a great contract, and a top lotto in one package. Other teams can either offer a nice pick/young players or solid win now talent but not both. Therefore I think Boston has the advantage.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.
    IT is playing for his next contract. He'll be upset, but still a good player. He knows a bad season means he won't get paid as much.

  10. #10
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    neither

    Cavs hold Kyries rights and dont have to move him

    Boston will have the crap ton of assets back

    Feelings will be smooted over between today and the start of the season. Its not like Crowder or IT are going to boycott the Cs they are professionals and when its time to ball they will.

    If I had a guess, id say Cleveland more because I dont think they can get a better deal and it would be harder to bring back Kyrie than IT and Crowder. I could see Kyrie genuinely holding out, IT is playing for a contact and Jae is emotional, he will be fine


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  11. #11
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    BOS is unlikely to get an opportunity for a proven top ~20 player like Kyrie for only one of Brown/Tatum/2018 BRK pick/LAL or SAC pick. It's unlikely a team moving a player like Kyrie would be in the position CLE is to value someone like Crowder to the extent they do to where it won't take a second younger, high upside asset.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.
    yeah I think this way as well. i think Thomas might demand a trade or something if it gets cancelled.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhopisthename View Post
    yeah I think this way as well. i think Thomas might demand a trade or something if it gets cancelled.
    He has no leverage though. He needs to prove he can play with the hip injury if he wants to get paid. Playing in Boston with Brad Stevens is where he'll likely put up his best numbers.

  14. #14
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    Next Season: Boston. Without Irving, and getting back two disgruntled players and a physically hurt Thomas would likely mean that they either remain stagnant having to set a new system up without a starting guard and plenty of new players or possibly get upset by a team that just under them but have had a few years together as a Core (Washington, Toronto, Milwaukee). It'll likely be a temporary issue, as they have a ton of high picks (including the one that would go back to them) to either use or trade for a franchise guard that might become available.

    After next season, and overall: Cleveland. They were somehow able to get Boston to part with an UNPROTECTED Brooklyn Nets pick as well as another first rounder in Zizic... They even got Crowder, who's a pretty good 3/D player and his size can be valuable for different systems for a guy who is basically having a hissy fit in order to get out of Cleveland.. . They can develop both players within THEIR system and not worry about resetting anything within them. This puts them in a perfect position considering they don't know what Lebron is opting to.... Frankly, if they feel that he's leaving at this point, they should not GAF about what he wants around him and focus on the future, and draft another guy who they can build around and anything extra this season would be nice; neither team is getting by Golden State or a few other teams in the West pending injuries.

    As hard as it is to say this as he's one of the greatest of all time, time always wins. Lebron has been playing basketball non stop since 2003. Constant deep playoff runs, olympics, etc....He's going to be 33 this year. He probably won't be able to carry a team near as much as he does now in 2019-2020, especially considering much of his game relies on his athleticism and durability. Cleveland needs to be looking at developing/acquiring a star to develop at this point, regardless of whether or not Lebron stays; if you can get a top 5 pick in a top heavy draft, you take it. As we saw with another durable player who played so much from when he was drafted in Kobe, injuries can hit with a ton of bricks.

    Of course, if they choose to mortgage the future, and go all out in hopes that Lebron resigns, then that Brooklyn pick is probably the biggest asset in trying to trade for another star. Not sure if they would even stay, seeing that Cleveland's reputation is being dragged for essentially pulling this crap despite reports saying they had all of the information.
    Last edited by Cal827; 08-29-2017 at 04:02 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Cleveland hands down. Boston has all the assets. No offer they get for Irving will replace him as well as Thomas would. They're not getting that level of pick from anyone else either because anyone else with a pick that high does not need a win-now player on a max deal. And Crowder is exactly what they need on their bench, at a reasonable price.

    Boston does not have to trade Thomas. They can lose him in free agency and still have multiple picks and players to reload with via draft or trade. At some point, Sacramento will be selling on George Hill, for instance, once they are confident that De'Aaron Fox can take the wheel.

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